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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Those casuals also come and go between games while those hardcore players tend to stick around and pay their sub in good and bad times.

    Guess which one has more value to a company long term?
    Casuals, because they are the vast silent majority, not a bunch of derps screeching in MMO-C.

    It's like some other dude said here - mythic raiders get what they want and ever wanted in WoW first and foremost - top notch raiding game and now with updates in timely fashion since Legion, that's why they can afford to placate casual players a bit and it's fine. Casual players are those who are paying for awesome raids every 6 weeks I get, so I don't mind sharing a bit there.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It’s the “victim-culture” of 2019. You need to watch out that dont offend any of the snowflakes. Participation trophies for everyone! Kids are learning effort is not important because in life you are just handed things.

    “Dont want to do good in school? No worries. Money grow on trees.”
    No it is not about "victim-culture". Why do people thinks it is fine to throw insults or offensive remarks around and expects people to just laugh it off?

    It seems like basic courtesy is a thing of the past for some.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    problem though, is that the gear itself is meaningless now and nothing stands out in the way it did even with Legion Legendaries. Love them or hate them, the legion legendary's made the game fun and have longevity to gearing even if it was forced.
    This is outright nonsense - even in BoD with its botched difficulty curve - you are not killing Jaina with M+ gear and all in all mythic raider with 415 ilvl and top notch azerite and weapon is a whole hell of a lot stronger than your average 405-ish pleb if that.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    thats bs and lie. spread by people like preach to work for his agenda.

    average joe playing wow does not care about mythic + or mythic raids.

    its average midcore raider in guilds between 5000-1000 on his alt who is locked out of mythic + by raider.io who is whining on forums about it.

    So you think casual players would be okay if high ilvl gear were made less accessible again?

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Snip
    Gearing has been largely the same since vanilla. The issue is now there are so many different sources for gear that it's hard to manage them all. The idea that difficulty = gear level is a more complicated argument in Legion/BfA than previously. The main issue being Raiding was the easy king of difficulty. It is not now, Mythic+ can be just as difficult and therefor the rewards should be similar.

    My opinion of this "issue" (it's not really an issue seeing as player skill makes a bigger difference than ilvl) is that this stems from Alts being more so than encouraged, but required. Legion required alts just to see all the content, and that mind set has carried on into BfA. Now Blizz needs to put in catch up mechanics to get alts to a reasonable level that they can be swapped in for mains... and we all see how easy it is when gear rains from the sky.

    If Blizz went back to pushing "mains" they could remove these catchup mechanics and a large chunk of issues would disappear.

    The reality is Preach is bored, gearing is still very similar to how it's always been, play the game, get gear. There is more of it now, but the decision for stats and azerite traits is way more important, which means that your pool for effective equipment is still pretty small.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    This is outright nonsense - even in BoD with its botched difficulty curve - you are not killing Jaina with M+ gear and all in all mythic raider with 415 ilvl and top notch azerite and weapon is a whole hell of a lot stronger than your average 405-ish pleb if that.
    You are missing the point entirely. The gear is uninteresting. a stat increase of +10 on the SAME ITEM YOU HAVE FROM HEROIC is not interesting from a design stand point. It's completely not memorable.

    Even the M+ gear is without any memorable value because you'll just need a higher version of that same item which gives it a real valueless feeling when it's all just the same items valued at different numbers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    So you think casual players would be okay if high ilvl gear were made less accessible again?
    problem is, once the genie is let out of the bottle its hard to put it back in.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by McFuu View Post
    Gearing has been largely the same since vanilla. The issue is now there are so many different sources for gear that it's hard to manage them all. The idea that difficulty = gear level is a more complicated argument in Legion/BfA than previously. The main issue being Raiding was the easy king of difficulty. It is not now, Mythic+ can be just as difficult and therefor the rewards should be similar.

    My opinion of this "issue" (it's not really an issue seeing as player skill makes a bigger difference than ilvl) is that this stems from Alts being more so than encouraged, but required. Legion required alts just to see all the content, and that mind set has carried on into BfA. Now Blizz needs to put in catch up mechanics to get alts to a reasonable level that they can be swapped in for mains... and we all see how easy it is when gear rains from the sky.

    If Blizz went back to pushing "mains" they could remove these catchup mechanics and a large chunk of issues would disappear.

    The reality is Preach is bored, gearing is still very similar to how it's always been, play the game, get gear. There is more of it now, but the decision for stats and azerite traits is way more important, which means that your pool for effective equipment is still pretty small.
    Gearing is so far and away from vanilla they are two separate games (hence, classic wow).

    When you played classic wow, did you get 10 different versions of the same item? When you beat a dungeon in classic, did you have to just jump up 10 levels of the same dungeon? What about MC? Did we have 4 different versions of MC with samey gear?

    No. You had items you could target, and dungeons stalk. It's lost a lot of it's RPG elements of the past in favor of ARPG.

    That's great for those who like it, i'm happy they do i really am, but it's not the game i fell in luv with anymore. it's been turned into an ARPG

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Classic was just an endless monotonous grind in every aspect of the game...
    So bad, it started your fifteen years of playing?

    Riiiiight.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    You are missing the point entirely. The gear is uninteresting. a stat increase of +10 on the SAME ITEM YOU HAVE FROM HEROIC is not interesting from a design stand point. It's completely not memorable.

    Even the M+ gear is without any memorable value because you'll just need a higher version of that same item which gives it a real valueless feeling when it's all just the same items valued at different numbers.

    - - - Updated - - -



    problem is, once the genie is let out of the bottle its hard to put it back in.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Gearing is so far and away from vanilla they are two separate games (hence, classic wow).

    When you played classic wow, did you get 10 different versions of the same item? When you beat a dungeon in classic, did you have to just jump up 10 levels of the same dungeon? What about MC? Did we have 4 different versions of MC with samey gear?

    No. You had items you could target, and dungeons stalk. It's lost a lot of it's RPG elements of the past in favor of ARPG.

    That's great for those who like it, i'm happy they do i really am, but it's not the game i fell in luv with anymore. it's been turned into an ARPG
    If there were 4 different difficulties of Onyxia and 4 different difficulties for dungeons including one that is essentially a sliding scale, and then loot lock out only extended to one difficulty... the gear would have rained from the sky in vanilla as well.

    The gearing model is largely the same, kill things and they drop magical trinkets, it's the sources that have increased an absurd amount. Vanilla; Dungeons, Raids, PvP, BoE world drops if you want to consider them, specific profession items. Now; 4 different dungeon difficulties, one of which scales loot and is infinitely runnable, 4 different raid difficulties, WQs (mainly weekly world bosses, WQs aren't gearing better than Mythic Dungeon or Norm Raid)... Not to mention the speed that these can be run.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The underlying issue here is that casuals want access to better gear because they think it will make more content accessible to them. But this wont happen. A bad player will still be bad no matter how much gear you give him/her.
    it's not about content.. it's about keeping players playing for as long as possible. Titanforge & warforge fill that role perfectly for both casuals and hardcore raiders.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    You are missing the point entirely. The gear is uninteresting. a stat increase of +10 on the SAME ITEM YOU HAVE FROM HEROIC is not interesting from a design stand point. It's completely not memorable.
    Quite frankly - this is literally a made-up issue here. Welcome to WoW since WoTLK, I guess? Why is it suddenly such a pressing BoD issue? This was there in your reforge utopia too?

    Heck, "from the design standpoint", what differentiates from most item A's to item B's is exactly this +10 here and there. Even in Vanilla - what was the such amazing difference between Ashkandi and Might of Menethil? Yep a couple of stats here and there, weapon speed and such. It is all in all exactly game of numbers.

    Provided we have already established that Mythic in fact gives best gear and fast, I am not sure why the above is even an issue considering the gap is enough to impact performance massively, unless you want to tell me optimal 3x415 and 415 weapon (at least) are not enough boost over ilvl 400 ones.


    That's why many mythic players view gear as a stepping stone towards doing what they like - downing mythic raids. If you play this game only exquisitely for gear, then there are really many better games for that out there. I think this mentality switch can help a lot of people, instead of trying to force WoW into being what it ain't - do it for what it is or don't, because you don't like it, which is a fine thing.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Geo9999 View Post
    This is stupid. The TF system is pure RNG, so the casuals can still get more TF gear than the hardcore players. Hardcore players obviously want reward for the higher effort levels and time that they put into the game. Note: I dont give a crap, BFA is trash anyway.
    no it's not. hardcore players will most likely have more TF than casual players. you are doing an extreme case of a very very lucky casual.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    So bad, it started your fifteen years of playing?

    Riiiiight.
    Back in the day we did not have any better. Vanilla was awesome because it was pitted against the likes of EQ or Lineage or Ragnarok or what not, which were basically "leveling the game".

    But objectively, Vanilla is a pretty bad game, it's just that in 2004 it was the best there is and it had bonus points for being Warcraft and having exceptional silky smooth character control.

    Let me rephrase this before Classic flaggelants will rush in with their pitchforks: Vanilla was amazing game in 2004, truly revolutionary, but compared to now? Boy, was it basic and broken as fuck.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2019-03-15 at 01:18 PM.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    No it is not about "victim-culture". Why do people thinks it is fine to throw insults or offensive remarks around and expects people to just laugh it off?

    It seems like basic courtesy is a thing of the past for some.
    I completely agree with ypu in general.

    But I dont see calling someone a bad player as an offensive insult.

  14. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    I've said it a few times, but the game struggles because there's no vision in its design.

    There's no attempt to build an experience for specific people, one that has depth and inspires those who enjoy it. The attempts are to mildly entertain as many as possible, no matter what they're doing, and hope that enough of them chuck money at the online services and items.

    And that's the question that matters:

    What do we want World of Warcraft to inspire?

    There should be an experience related vision, with three to four clearly related intentions, in order to create that vision. That's what we had prior to mid-Wrath when those guys moved on and got replaced, and it's the opposite of what we've had since. Nonsense like dungeons having five difficulties, and raids having four, tells you that they're not designed to inspire people who are into that content, they're designed to make sure everyone does them no matter what their interest is.

    And why?

    Because people who aren't interested in raids need deep content of another type. That used to be the ways quests worked, how dungeons were set up, or the way professions were designed. Now? All of those are dreadful because quests are the same and non-threatening, dungeons have been horrifically shortened, and professions have had their value utterly gutted. The design of all of that was lowered, so that difficulties could be expanded for content that most players don't actually like very much.

    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.

    That intention is now history.
    I love this post so much.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    it's not about content.. it's about keeping players playing for as long as possible. Titanforge & warforge fill that role perfectly for both casuals and hardcore raiders.
    Not really for mythic raiders. As preach also say, if you have 415 gear there is not really a need to go for warforged 425 gear (it cant even titanforge). We are going to replace it right away anyway.

  16. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Back in the day we did not have any better. Vanilla was awesome because it was pitted against the likes of EQ or Lineage or Ragnarok or what not, which were basically "leveling the game".

    But objectively, Vanilla is a pretty bad game, it's just that in 2004 it was the best there is and it had bonus points for being Warcraft and having exceptional silky smooth character control.
    I've been playing video games, solidly, for just over 31 years. That's a significant amount to the overwhelming majority of posters here, but a bit less than a few who are a good chunk older.

    Neither me, nor any reasonable person, sticks with a game that's an 'endless monotonous grind'; this is because there has always been plenty of games to play, and games that you actually enjoy.

    As soon as someone tells me they played the entirety of Classic, but it was shit, is either utterly stupid, or simply lying.

    £30 for the game, and a tenner every month prior to The Burning Crusade, means a spunking of £260; and you spent it despite hating the game?

    Mhm.

  17. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    That's what M+ was supposed to be... except it really doesn't work like that with the current reward structure. Between Warfronts, World Bosses, LFR, (soon to be buffed) Incursions and random WQ Titanforges, low level M+ offer next to no rewards for them, while being significantly harder than any other content they did so far. In order to get upgrades, they need to do >7, which they are completely unprepared to do (without even getting into raider.io 'score').

    As it is now, they are catapulted straight through the gearing process at a crazy speed and then crash directly into a wall they cannot even begin to tackle, at all. There isn't any gradual increase in difficulty in effort, it's "oh, you're 360 now? Your WQ rewards will be 370, enjoy! Want something better? There's M+10 which will absolutely destroy you, have fun."

    I'm not naive enough to believe that people would "step up to the challenge" and "start raiding if only we removed all the easy modes", but there's just nothing there for them. Residue is supposed to be the incentive, but again - M+ and why would they bother if emissaries offer 385 easily, while anything better requires doing much harder instances and will be invalidated once the patch hits all the same. Used to be Reputation Vendors or Valor Points that offered concrete, tangible rewards after doing certain amount of effort. All useless nowadays.
    Right, they completely failed at adding those systems because they aren't even attempting to balance effort and reward anymore. Instead they divide the game into seasons, give you a full set of 385 items from doing world quests, and then wonder why people getting thrown straight at M+7 struggle to improve their characters. You're exactly right. Are world quests harder than M+7? Hell no, they're not even close, and the problem with giving the same reward is not just that M+ below level 7 becomes effectively a waste of time, it's also that M+7 is too hard if this is your first time doing real end-game content.

    It's a wall, exactly like you say. It's basically just a more convoluted version of the Cataclysm mistake.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    So bad, it started your fifteen years of playing?

    Riiiiight.
    the irony when you are citing a game that was 15 years ago ridiculed as being too casual and to easy by people playing lieraly any other mmorpg on market.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    I've been playing video games, solidly, for just over 31 years. That's a significant amount to the overwhelming majority of posters here, but a bit less than a few who are a good chunk older.

    Neither me, nor any reasonable person, sticks with a game that's an 'endless monotonous grind'; this is because there has always been plenty of games to play, and games that you actually enjoy.

    As soon as someone tells me they played the entirety of Classic, but it was shit, is either utterly stupid, or simply lying.

    £30 for the game, and a tenner every month prior to The Burning Crusade, means a spunking of £260; and you spent it despite hating the game?

    Mhm.
    I think I plainly explained my standpoint.

    Back in 2005 when I started playing Vanilla it was the best MMO out there by far because it was not yet another "level to cap the game" AND it was Warcraft, which instantly was a sale for me.

    Back then Vanilla WoW was legit stellar, but it does not hold a candle to anything we have nowadays including Battle for Azeroth. Yep I said it.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Right, they completely failed at adding those systems because they aren't even attempting to balance effort and reward anymore. Instead they divide the game into seasons, give you a full set of 385 items from doing world quests, and then wonder why people getting thrown straight at M+7 struggle to improve their characters. You're exactly right. Are world quests harder than M+7? Hell no, they're not even close, and the problem with giving the same reward is not just that M+ below level 7 becomes effectively a waste of time, it's also that M+7 is too hard if this is your first time doing real end-game content.

    It's a wall, exactly like you say. It's basically just a more convoluted version of the Cataclysm mistake.
    and ? are you suggesting that wow wasnt "divide into seasons" for past 15 year ?

    i guess we played completly different game for all those years then .

    because the only reason why most of people were doin old usless raids between vanilla and wolk was because of retarded attuenement systems. which got removed because nobody enjoyed this.

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