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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Classes play worse but thats it. Everything else in the game is better.
    Yeah, the main thing you do the entire time you play the game the focal point behind power progression plays worse. Kind of a huge deal. Nice part about WoD was it was the last time where you could do all that was required and called your character "Done", before they introduced non stop power gains, a shift in design philosophy, players wont play the game for the game, they will only play it if they can get numerical gain out of it.
    Last edited by Lawlhero; 2019-03-17 at 08:21 AM.
    Never underestimate the unknown, or some shit. *shrugs i unno*

  2. #602
    In early 2009, shortly after WotLK had been released, I made a long rant on the WoW forums regarding what I perceived as the casualization of WoW. Now I don't remember the entire rant (which is probably a good thing), but I do remember the last paragraph because in the years that's followed it has haunted me somewhat relentlessly. Anyway, here it goes.

    I miss the scepter of the shifting sands quest chain. And I don't care who gets to raid who or if the rest of the community suddenly went hardcore and thereby achieved far more than I ever could. But I miss the journey. I crave the journey. For without the journey, the reward means nothing.

    Truly I couldn't care less about being a special snowflake. To me, that's not what this is about. It never was. And yes, of course, Vanilla was simpler in many regards. If you compare Molten Core to even normal raiding nowadays, yes, obviously the later is infinitely more complicated. But I think what some people loved about Vanilla (and indeed what I loved and still love about Vanilla) is that feel of being on a journey.

    And that's what I think Vanilla did so very well. Why? Because in Vanilla there was always unbeatable content out there. There was always something to aspire to. The game was what you made of it. At least for the great majority of the people. Sure there were some catch-ups mechanics too, but truly if you wanted to raid Naxxramas (which mind you less 1% completed back in the days), you had to put in the work.

    Ya know you started a new character at level 1 and you were a nobody and the lore and the quests you got reflected this. But slowly you grew more powerful, you got some gear, you did some dungeons and over time (Hell for some leveling could last months), you made your way to sixty and then you started raiding and it was all atop of another. You went through ZG, you went through MC and again, slowly, tediously, you progressed further and further up that ladder.

    Sure the raids were not that epic compared to today's standards, but they felt epic because the path to actually raiding them was a journey all unto itself. I always like to compare it to LotR. Sure, we all know Frodo should have just used those damn eagles, but honestly, what kind of story would that have made? And yes, I'm sure that there are people out there who might have done all of these things for no other reason than feeling superior and what not. But I can assure that there are people (like myself) who did those things because they cared about the journey.

    And alas, that journey is just not what it used to be. And yes, this is hardly news. In some ways, the release of the first very expansion invalidated that journey to some extent (to at least be reset with every expansion) and then further on in patch 3.2 we've got an additional reset between patches.

    When people talk about gear exclusivity as a motivation for raiding, I've often seen it interpreted in a kind of greedy way, as if some elitist jerks thinks gear should be made special and inaccessible to other people simply for the sake of pride and egoism. Again the special unique snowflalke strawman. But to me, at least, the subject is not really the gear itself, but rather how the accessibility of gear contributes to undermining the aforementioned journey.

    Going back to Vanilla, if you wanted to raid AQ40, you had to raid at least some of the previous raids. It was as simple as that. Apart from some catch-up gear here and there, the journey was still intact or if you prefer, the journey was linear. And because of the distribution of gear was itself also relatively scarce, you had to raid those previous raids not once, not twice, but many, many times before you were even remotely ready to step into AQ40.

    Imagine if you were a new guild who just started playing WoW in the summer of 2006. You had to level up and all the while leveling, you dreamed of one day being able to raid AQ40 and kill C'thun. When you visited Stormwind or Orgrimmar you saw people standing around in epic gear and you heard stories of epic battles in dungeons far away. And then finally you hit 60, but that didn't mean you could raid AQ40 and just waltz in and kill C'thun.

    It wasn't that the raid had not been released yet. It wasn't because there was some artificial timelock or anything like that. You just weren't ready for it. But you wanted to be. Sure you wanted the gear, but you also wanted to have the experience. I mean for crying out loud, it's an entire raid and you haven't seen it. Imagine how much hype there is nowadays when Blizzard releases a raid? Well in this case, the raid was there, but in order to raid it, you had to work your way up to it.

    And there's the motivation. There's the journey. And those are the things that contributes to making the raid amazing even before you've started raiding it.

    Preach understands this and I sympathize with what he's saying. But, ya know, I'm not blind to the fact that not everyone feels like I do. People this game for a variety of reasons and some couldn't care less about the journey that I describe and some in turn finds it in other places. Myself, while I in so many ways prefer the journey of Vanilla to the kind of journey (or whatever it is) that we have today, I do still play retail and I enjoy it, in part because I've learned to find the journey in other places, like mounts and, of course, achievements.

    But that still doesn't change the fact that what I still crave and what I think a lot of us who loved Classic crave is that we want a world. In truth, I remember that's how WoW was first presented back in the day, not as "a game, but a world." It was just kind of there and it was what it was. Unlike today, it didn't feel as if every single patch, dungeon or raid was delivered for the sake of the individidual's player maximum enjoyment.

    We were more like some kind of sub-species scrawling around on a rock of molten lava and every now and then some celestial god (Blizz) would throw down a meteor at us (a patch or a raid) and then, in the spirit of 2001, we would scramble around it, tryin' to figure out what the Hell it was.

    Obviously I could go on forever about why I love the journey of Vanilla, but if I were to pin point one more reason before I go, it would have to do with the lore. Again everyone are always talking about epics and item level and what not, but one of the reasons why I truly loved the feel of the journey was because it contributed to making not just the raids themselves, but also the lore villians so much more intimidating.

    I know in terms of power, Argus is, of course, infinitely stronger than Kel'thuzad and yet, I have to be honest with you, to me, Kel'thuzad is just so much more intimidating. Compared to recent years, where Archimonde was in statistics easier to defeat than Gul'dan, I think Vanilla succeeded in many ways not only because it created a journey in terms of systems, but also because it connected that same journey with the actual journey through lore, which again, like the former, was not a handhold experience with neat little cinematics, but again, was what you made of it. Anyway, enough's enough.

    Now in terms of the topic at hand, I see where Preach is coming from and while that would be an improvement (because don't get me wrong, gear for the sake of gear is a factor and yes it does matter - that too is a kind of journey) I honestly think that the more viable solution would require not making preivous raids redundant whenever a new raid is released.

    Of course, if it were up to me, I'd remove the first three of the four difficulties, introduce attunements to all raids and (it goes without saying) remove any reward from anywhere outside of either raiding or insane repetive grinding that could come anywhere near the item level of even the easiest of raids (at least this early on this expansion), but, ya know, I'm not naive. I know fully well that that is just a pipe dream.

    And so I'll just end this seemingly endless thread with a quote from that original 2008 thread. The only other part that I still remember.

    But ya all know, and Blizzard knows, that an old dog like me still hang around. So bring it on, through the good and the bad, the rain and the storm, I'm pressing on.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    I just don't get the hype for classic, because the majority of complains about the current game are astronomical worse in the old grind game.
    Not 'worse', just different in a way that some people (such as myself) will thoroughly enjoy.

    Depth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instant gratification, any day of the week.

  4. #604
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Can you tell me exactly why BFA is worse? It has inifitely more to do than WoD. Classes play worse but thats it. Everything else in the game is better.
    Cuz the game is boring af. Half of the 'more content to do' is just outright boring and trivial.

    Expeditions? yawn
    War fronts? once a week and yawn
    Raiding? Very well done, but that's always been there
    PvP? In an expac that is hailed has having the worst class and specs in the game's history? yea thats a hard pass. Also been available for years
    World quest spam? just lol
    Assaults? You mean more world quests?
    Allied races? that's ''content'' the same way that Tmorph gives you extra content

    What else is there? BFA is a shining example that quality>>>>quantity.
    Last edited by matheney2k; 2019-03-17 at 11:54 AM.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Can you tell me exactly why BFA is worse? It has inifitely more to do than WoD. Classes play worse but thats it. Everything else in the game is better.
    Sorry for the late reply, i haven't checked MMO champ since yesterday.

    I'd say it's not all bad for either expac, and there are pro's and con's to both.

    Wod Pro: Art team, sound design, the idea behind garrisons (even if the execution stunk) classes played better, the raids MEANT more in terms of gearing, and progression was more interesting because of it, IMO.

    Wod Con: Garrisons because while i like the idea, it is the worst housing ive ever seen in an MMO, Even 20 year old Runescape did it better. LONG DROUGHT at the end. Lack of things to do outside of raid that had value at all, and the story kinda flip flopped halfway through.

    BFA PRO: Art team, again they are fantastic and deserve so much praise. How much there is to do outside of raids in terms of gearing up. (that will also be a con), the new races, and zones.

    BFA CON: * Class play. You touched on it a tad but the class is your vessel for how you see the world. If your class/character isn't as fun to play as it has been in previous expacs, you won't have as much fun. Simple as that. In bfa, i think only 2 classes (outlaw rogue, and havoc dh) got improved going into BFA, the majority of us don't like our class play this time which is a HUGE red flag in an MMO. *Secondly, how easy it is to gear outside of raids IS a con as well as a pro. Pro for those who don't wanna commit to raiding, HUGE con for those who do. Why bother pushing past heroic and committing 4-5x the amount of time for mythic clear when gear has never meant less in the game? BFA has turned WoW from an MMORPG into an ARPG like Diablo 3 and successfully killed high end raiding for the average heroic/mythic guild. *On top of that, the content just feels bland. Emissary quests and world quests are the most thoughtless content ever made in WoW, talk about mind numbing boredom. I'd rather farm rep one kill at a time than do another emissary quest. * lets talk warmode too, which is gonna ruffle feathers... warmode is a good idea, but HORRIBLE execution just like garrisons. This expansion is about us being AT WAR, and outside of story cutscenes, i don't feel it. WPVP even feels less than previous expacs due to how scaling is now trying to put us all on equal numerical footing rather than just let the war unfold naturally, this expac should be about us taking the eastern/western kingdoms FROM one another. Take the WAR back to WARCRAFT. Instead, they (just like WoD) decided to pivot halfway into the story in a wildly different direction and focus on the next expac/big threat rather than take care of the story that they started in a meaningful way. Also, some players WANT the horde to be more wc2 horde and less thralls horde so to see them do Garrosh 2.0 with Sylvanas after promising NOT to, well, its not only bad story telling but it's very disappointing. EDITED CON: The new races too. They aren't even all that creative like naga, murloc, etc... it's just new human, elves, dwarves, tauren, and orcs.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. To add insult to injury you don't even get them with the expac, you have to grind rep for them which no doubt turned more players off than even have these races. If they sell races with the expac, they should be there DAY 1.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    Not 'worse', just different in a way that some people (such as myself) will thoroughly enjoy.

    Depth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instant gratification, any day of the week.
    This. No one is claiming classic is perfect. Most of us experienced it. No game is perfect, but i'll take imperfect depth and RPG mechanics over the Diablo 3 the MMO version of WOW we have today.

    I prefer older style MMO's anyway. Where the journey is the reward

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawlhero View Post
    Yeah, the main thing you do the entire time you play the game the focal point behind power progression plays worse. Kind of a huge deal. Nice part about WoD was it was the last time where you could do all that was required and called your character "Done", before they introduced non stop power gains, a shift in design philosophy, players wont play the game for the game, they will only play it if they can get numerical gain out of it.
    I love your point about being "done" with a character at a certain point in the raiding/expac, and how that's gone now. Being DONE, so to speak, is an important part of an RPG characters journey. The Heros journey is all about the beginning, the middle, and the end.

    WoW currently, has no end and the treadmill keeps going so you never hit the end and can retire as a character naturally.

    People ask "Why do you want classic if there's not gonna be new raids etc?" but to me, that's not necessarily a bad thing because i'll be able to chart a clear beginning, middle, and end coarse for that particular character and move on to the next. I won't feel like i have to constantly grind that treadmill for a piece of loot that's the same as what i have on now, but +10 ilvls ahead. That works for some people, but not for me.
    Last edited by justandulas; 2019-03-17 at 12:12 PM.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I won't feel like i have to constantly grind that treadmill for a piece of loot that's the same as what i have on now, but +10 ilvls ahead. That works for some people, but not for me.
    Not sure why you brought this up in this discussion. You make it sound like it is bad thing, which can be in your view. But this has been the staple of MMO for many years. Including WoW. Including classic.

    So if it was a problem, why is it now and not 10 years ago?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Cuz the game is boring af. Half of the 'more content to do' is just outright boring and trivial.

    Expeditions? yawn
    War fronts? once a week and yawn
    Raiding? Very well done, but that's always been there
    PvP? In an expac that is hailed has having the worst class and specs in the game's history? yea thats a hard pass. Also been available for years
    World quest spam? just lol
    Assaults? You mean more world quests?
    Allied races? that's ''content'' the same way that Tmorph gives you extra content

    What else is there? BFA is a shining example that quality>>>>quantity.
    Sounds a bit like of all the expansions of old. Granted they did not have Assaults or Expeditions. Infact, they did not have anything else.

    WQ are just an evolution of the dailies.

    Never PvP so cannot comment on that.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Not sure why you brought this up in this discussion. You make it sound like it is bad thing, which can be in your view. But this has been the staple of MMO for many years. Including WoW. Including classic.

    So if it was a problem, why is it now and not 10 years ago?
    Because 10 years ago the gear meant something more. It was your way of separating yourself from the herd and become more. Raids used to be the only place to get the best gear, now thanks to wf/tf and m+ it’s entirely possible to build a mythic geared toon without ever stepping foot in a raid.

    It isn’t a problem for some games like diablo 3, which I like, but it’s an issue for wow. It devalues raiding and gives no real incentive other than the kindness of your heart to do it. On top of that, the gear turnover is faster in bfa than any point in wow. You get an item and next week it’s replaced. So on.

    Too diablo 3. Not enough old wow. If you can get raid quality gear by just doing m+, lucky on wf, or warfronrs, why bother with raiding? It’s why raiding is at an all time low. the current system is great for those at the tip top and those at the bottom, but has killed most heroic/mythic raiding guilds. There’s no longer the incentive that if I want the best I gotta raid; now you can just get lucky on your weekly chest

  8. #608
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post

    Sounds a bit like of all the expansions of old. Granted they did not have Assaults or Expeditions. Infact, they did not have anything else.

    WQ are just an evolution of the dailies.

    Never PvP so cannot comment on that.
    Yet the game hasn't felt as empty as it does now for me.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Yet the game hasn't felt as empty as it does now for me.
    Wide as an ocean, but only as deep as a puddle

  10. #610
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Wide as an ocean, but only as deep as a puddle
    That's a pretty good analogy I like that.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Wide as an ocean, but only as deep as a puddle
    Depth in a RPG? Never heard of such a thing

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Depth in a RPG? Never heard of such a thing
    Right? Where WoW gets around it is there are very little, to no, rpg elements left. Wow today resembles diablo 3 more than vanilla wow

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Yet the game hasn't felt as empty as it does now for me.
    No doubt. Not trying to change that. I find the game boring eventually and when I do, I take a break from it and then come back once I feel like playing it again.

    I just find it odd that some people list things as a reason for it. They have playing the same game, in the same style, the same direction for years.

    If I eat Pizza everyday, I would get sick of it eventually. Does not mean it is because the Pizza has changed,

  14. #614
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    No doubt. Not trying to change that. I find the game boring eventually and when I do, I take a break from it and then come back once I feel like playing it again.

    I just find it odd that some people list things as a reason for it. They have playing the same game, in the same style, the same direction for years.

    If I eat Pizza everyday, I would get sick of it eventually. Does not mean it is because the Pizza has changed,
    But it's not the same style nor the same direction that's just flat out wrong. Blizz seems to want to change the style of the game every expansion, reinventing the wheel every.single.time.

    Imagine a game where they didn't remove all of the good features of expansions past, but rather built upon them and created new systems to compiment them and give variety to them. I would love BFA if it had everything it has now as well as old glyphs system, old gems (or old profession 'bonus' system in general), old talent system (to replace or compliment current one), valor points (cap or not cap), rep tabards, 2 main difficulties (or one?) for raids, and countless other features, big or small, that I am not remembering off the top of my head.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    No doubt. Not trying to change that. I find the game boring eventually and when I do, I take a break from it and then come back once I feel like playing it again.

    I just find it odd that some people list things as a reason for it. They have playing the same game, in the same style, the same direction for years.

    If I eat Pizza everyday, I would get sick of it eventually. Does not mean it is because the Pizza has changed,
    But the pizza changed flavors and ingredients suddenly, hence why so many are walking away. They aren’t angry like previous expacs; they are more apathetic. Which is far more dangerous.

    Angry people are at least emotionally invested. Today, we see more apathy with people walking away from bfa and once that happens they never come back

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    Because asmongoloid and preach said so. And blind sheeps followed the hate
    So you try to tell people, that the great drop in subscribes I see as an active player is due to the streamers/ youtube channels conspiracy?
    Do you really believe that people would abandon their fun just for the sake of some stupid protest or something like that?

    No. Although Warlords of Draenor had greater content drought than BfA, I'd prefer to have WoD right now instead of BfA.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Sorry for the late reply, i haven't checked MMO champ since yesterday.

    I'd say it's not all bad for either expac, and there are pro's and con's to both.

    Wod Pro: Art team, sound design, the idea behind garrisons (even if the execution stunk) classes played better, the raids MEANT more in terms of gearing, and progression was more interesting because of it, IMO.

    Wod Con: Garrisons because while i like the idea, it is the worst housing ive ever seen in an MMO, Even 20 year old Runescape did it better. LONG DROUGHT at the end. Lack of things to do outside of raid that had value at all, and the story kinda flip flopped halfway through.

    BFA PRO: Art team, again they are fantastic and deserve so much praise. How much there is to do outside of raids in terms of gearing up. (that will also be a con), the new races, and zones.

    BFA CON: * Class play. You touched on it a tad but the class is your vessel for how you see the world. If your class/character isn't as fun to play as it has been in previous expacs, you won't have as much fun. Simple as that. In bfa, i think only 2 classes (outlaw rogue, and havoc dh) got improved going into BFA, the majority of us don't like our class play this time which is a HUGE red flag in an MMO. *Secondly, how easy it is to gear outside of raids IS a con as well as a pro. Pro for those who don't wanna commit to raiding, HUGE con for those who do. Why bother pushing past heroic and committing 4-5x the amount of time for mythic clear when gear has never meant less in the game? BFA has turned WoW from an MMORPG into an ARPG like Diablo 3 and successfully killed high end raiding for the average heroic/mythic guild. *On top of that, the content just feels bland. Emissary quests and world quests are the most thoughtless content ever made in WoW, talk about mind numbing boredom. I'd rather farm rep one kill at a time than do another emissary quest. * lets talk warmode too, which is gonna ruffle feathers... warmode is a good idea, but HORRIBLE execution just like garrisons. This expansion is about us being AT WAR, and outside of story cutscenes, i don't feel it. WPVP even feels less than previous expacs due to how scaling is now trying to put us all on equal numerical footing rather than just let the war unfold naturally, this expac should be about us taking the eastern/western kingdoms FROM one another. Take the WAR back to WARCRAFT. Instead, they (just like WoD) decided to pivot halfway into the story in a wildly different direction and focus on the next expac/big threat rather than take care of the story that they started in a meaningful way. Also, some players WANT the horde to be more wc2 horde and less thralls horde so to see them do Garrosh 2.0 with Sylvanas after promising NOT to, well, its not only bad story telling but it's very disappointing. EDITED CON: The new races too. They aren't even all that creative like naga, murloc, etc... it's just new human, elves, dwarves, tauren, and orcs.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. To add insult to injury you don't even get them with the expac, you have to grind rep for them which no doubt turned more players off than even have these races. If they sell races with the expac, they should be there DAY 1.
    Just to add to your point about WQs; they take way longer than in legion. They removed the ability to easily form groups via addons, but also made it so a lot of WQs don't even share progress with the people in your party. So doing your WQs in bfa honestly takes 4-5x longer than it did in legion BEFORE you got flying.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindMask View Post
    Just to add to your point about WQs; they take way longer than in legion. They removed the ability to easily form groups via addons, but also made it so a lot of WQs don't even share progress with the people in your party. So doing your WQs in bfa honestly takes 4-5x longer than it did in legion BEFORE you got flying.
    And you know what would happen if we still ahd addon? Blizzard would 5x increase amounth of stuff you have to do in order to finish WQ so time you spend doing world Q will stay same.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindMask View Post
    Just to add to your point about WQs; they take way longer than in legion. They removed the ability to easily form groups via addons, but also made it so a lot of WQs don't even share progress with the people in your party. So doing your WQs in bfa honestly takes 4-5x longer than it did in legion BEFORE you got flying.
    Here’s another WQ whoopsie. The expansion is supposed to be about war vs the factions, but they removed the pvp wq. Daduq?

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawlhero View Post
    Yeah, the main thing you do the entire time you play the game the focal point behind power progression plays worse. Kind of a huge deal. Nice part about WoD was it was the last time where you could do all that was required and called your character "Done", before they introduced non stop power gains, a shift in design philosophy, players wont play the game for the game, they will only play it if they can get numerical gain out of it.
    It isnt just gear. Pets, Achievements, Mounts, Toys,... Every expansion they add so many ***** that you cant possibly be ever done with it. Everytime when i got close to collecting most of mounts boom patch with another 20 new negeneic mounts to grind in trivial content just to keep me playing and got sick of it. Legion added 120 mounts. 120!!!! Why not just add 12 super unique mounts per expansion for achieving some really challening stuff. It is impossible to keep up so why bother.

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