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  1. #41
    Without gear as it is, with no replacements, gear would stagnate and people would get bored as shit like they did in WoD. Preach is a raider and has in my experiences always seemed to have a talent of trying to explain well really poorly thought out concepts.

    What we need is less of this obsession on these complicated systems. Bring back gear vendors, cut the amount of ilvls between each tier and honestly scrap one or two of the difficulty modes. Of course gear loses its value when its vomited at you from every turn, how about we tone back on the amount of items in the game as a whole and have a more clear and less RNG loot system as a whole so people will know based on their gear where they stand and what they need to do to progress?

    When I can play super casually and RNG into heroic to mythic item level I have no reason to push on to those difficulty tiers. Yes many people don't just play for a higher ilvl but what it did do is give a clear path of progression to your actions and establish an endgame. We don't have that anymore. We don't even have a gear vendor which served to allow casual players to be near the normal (or heroic as it is now) ilvl so they could step into raiding. The current designers of WoW's gear system feel like they lost sight of what it is that gear did in the game itself, which was give players a numerical - both in ilvl and damage - path of progression that they could understand and work towards.
    Last edited by Irian; 2019-03-14 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Poppycock!

    Vanilla was a frikkin' broken full of trap choices (chiefly of those were classes, trap I soundly fell into with paladin) and with barely any sort of coherent story.

    You know why gear mattered? Because 90% of it was utter shit, so the remaining 10% that even made sense for your class and playstyle were glorified.

    World was big and empty as fuck, you had whole zones literally void of any meaning with a bunch of random NPCs offering totally random quests and all this was glued together by systems that would rightfully drive people mad nowadays, because if you think that bloody spamming city chat for half an hour to make maraudon run then waste 20 minutes traveling to the dungeon only the whole thing fall apart like a house of cards 3 pulls in was good, then boy, I don't know what to say.
    It was a much better game, period. It was a true RPG, vs today's ARPG wow.

    Maybe your experience was different, but i remember damn near EVERY gear i got in vanilla and where i targeted it, when it dropped, who was with me, etc.

    I have friends from vanilla for LIFE. It was the best of WoW by a large margin in many departments. Raiding would become better over time, but the gear and character development meant more in vanilla than any expac since put together.

    Go ahead and name me 3 RPG mechanics in current WoW that exist.

    I'd rather play a big open world that felt alive vs sit in a town and que for activity with random nameless faces in a crowd. In vanilla, you'd have more social interaction with that single MARA group you mentiond than in all of BFA's LFD/LFR/M+ put together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    Now see? I don't care if you still like WoW... or play it everyday. I don't like modern WoW... Haven't really enjoyed the game since Cata... but truly was only passionate about it BC/Wrath. (Never played Vanilla which is why I am PUMPED to play Classic... although I have played a few pservers)

    Just because I don't like something you do doesn't mean I'm a "tardie" nor does it make you one. The real difference between us is that you are angry that others don't like your game... does it also drive you nutz that other people are excited and passionate about Classic? It must, because you take offense to my sig.

    For me, when I compare modern WoW to vanilla, there is a night and day difference in game design... mostly in reward/effort ratio, and the importance placed in the little things in Vanilla. Because of that difference... I prefer Classic... the choice is clear. Which is why I never bought BfA after participating in the Beta, and why I can't wait for Summer.
    I put it like this....

    One is an MMO-RPG and one is an MMO-ARPG. Two different games. Classic wow was a real MMO RPG in every sense of the words and experience. Current WoW has more in common with Diablo 3 and ARPG than it does it's roots such as other MMORPG like EQ.

    They appeal to 2 diff crowds. Classic WoW appeals to the older, more sophisticated generation that is there for the journey not the endgame grind. A more table top AD&D setting.

    Current WoW appeals to the ARPG Diablo 3 insta gratification crowd with very little, to no RPG elements left in the game at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leniaas View Post
    Thats simply not true.
    I have multiple chars sitting at ~400 ilvl only doing m+. And i have 1 char sitting at 412 doing myth raiding and the occassionall m+. There are no upgrades in m+ at all for my myth raiding char, except for WF/TF i wont even bother about.
    Its the exact opossite of what you are saying. Like.... ?????
    you just proved my point for me, actually. You have multiple characters at Mythic raid readiness by only doing a few M+. Why should the mythic raider continue to grind in the off hours, the AP, and everything else if you can just get some lucky WF/TF in M+ or Heroic and call it a day?

    The gear treadmill has never been worse in WOW

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    Now see? I don't care if you still like WoW... or play it everyday. I don't like modern WoW... Haven't really enjoyed the game since Cata... but truly was only passionate about it BC/Wrath. (Never played Vanilla which is why I am PUMPED to play Classic... although I have played a few pservers)

    Just because I don't like something you do doesn't mean I'm a "tardie" nor does it make you one. The real difference between us is that you are angry that others don't like your game... does it also drive you nutz that other people are excited and passionate about Classic? It must, because you take offense to my sig.

    For me, when I compare modern WoW to vanilla, there is a night and day difference in game design... mostly in reward/effort ratio, and the importance placed in the little things in Vanilla. Because of that difference... I prefer Classic... the choice is clear. Which is why I never bought BfA after participating in the Beta, and why I can't wait for Summer.
    You just tossed a bunch of non-starter slogans. "Importance placed in the little things in Vanilla". What does that even mean?

    Effort/Reward ratio? I Flash of Light spammed whole Vanilla as Paladin raider, that's pressing one bloody macro 90% of the time and I got loot for it. Shiet that effort worth the reward man. By today's standards I'd be bloody LFR level, the only real effort that was there is guild leadership, because gathering 40 morons that are barely capable of mashing that one or two macros without standing in a fire was a challenge.

    When I compare what I did then compared to bloody choreographic dancing I do in Mythic raids now... lel... It's as if I was bloody playing tic tax toe against myself back then compared to effort needed now to beat encounters.

  4. #44
    Why are there people acting like the majority of people left who left wow did so because mythic is unrewarding? Most people don't do mythic

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    Why are there people acting like the majority of people left who left wow did so because mythic is unrewarding? Most people don't do mythic
    True. BFA has lost a lot of customers for more reasons than Mythic raiding, but this particular topic was why the top of the gear treadmill is broken and never been more meaningless.

    There are other "BFA sucks rawr" threads.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    [LIST][*]Normal/Heroic dungeons are removed, only mythic and mythic+ remain. They always drop the same iLvl loot regardless of it being a +1 or a +10, HOWEVER at the start of each reset you get a number of upgrade tokens based on your highest completed key with which you can upgrade the gear you got from the previous week to heroic raid quality.
    First, get stuffed removing normal/heroic dungeons.

    Secondly, are you suggesting I should hang on to an entire week's worth of loot to upgrade one or two later on?

  7. #47
    We did not have agency in vanilla! Lmao gear was completely busted and scaling was all fucked.

    I love vanilla and can't wait for it but come on... let's be honest here

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Leniaas View Post
    We got the real problem right here on the floor.
    The problem is not how gear is distributed but rather how people think they need to f... the system.
    You dont need to raid all difficulties, no matter what you actually want accomplish.
    Want to clear myth? Raid HC week one, move on and do myth next week. If people dont get geared in that one week nowadays they wont be geared in the next 3 weeks following.
    Gearing is fine if done right.
    The choice is on the players and thats super good.
    To be fair at the time we never really had a system like it, previously we had Ulduar with only two difficulty modes to choose from, 10 or 25. You had the hard modes you could activate but that was done within the raid.

    Obviously since then I learned my lesson. However since then I have seen the same arguments hear and in game, people burning out in the same way and how the loot system is broken or its too easy to get gear etc. Players will do what ever they feel they need to do to get ahead or gear up. Thats pretty much what I have come to see.

    Anyways I still enjoy the game, and I am pretty much waiting for the mega dungeon patch I think with Legion and BFA and the M+ system dungeons are far more interesting than they have been in years. I just hope in the next expansion we see more mega dungeons on top of the 5mans. I can dream right?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post

    Effort/Reward ratio? I Flash of Light spammed whole Vanilla as Paladin raider, that's pressing one bloody macro 90% of the time and I got loot for it. Shiet that effort worth the reward man. By today's standards I'd be bloody LFR level
    Effort can mean either time investment or doing something difficult, or both.

    When you can get the best rewards in the game from neither of those two ways then that's what people will do.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Yes, the ilvl inflation was MUCH lower in the past, limiting the automated obsolescence of content (or preventing it in the case of Vanilla and early TBC).
    My Naxx gear was useless after Ulduar and my Ulduar stuff was useless after the coloseum and... do I need to continue ? And if you have forgotten r10 gear was far inferior to r25 gear. So people actually cleaning the content could not have the best loot, its a lot better now even if I dont really like the WF/TF system

  11. #51
    I'm just gonna bury my head in the sand and tell people theyre stupid for agreeing with a youtuber or any twitch streamer.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    We did not have agency in vanilla! Lmao gear was completely busted and scaling was all fucked.

    I love vanilla and can't wait for it but come on... let's be honest here
    We absolutely did. not only did we have agency over our character with talents, and how we played (different ranks of spells) but you could legit target a boss and a specific piece of gear. When that piece of gear dropped, you'd be like "OH man scathan congrats i know you wanted that for months!" and you'd know the joy they had.

    Now, we can target a specific M+ and HOPE to get lucky.

    That's agency, and far more rewarding IMHO than the current model

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    [video=youtube;CuB1vfoWTGM]

    • Normal/Heroic dungeons are removed, only mythic and mythic+ remain. They always drop the same iLvl loot regardless of it being a +1 or a +10, HOWEVER at the start of each reset you get a number of upgrade tokens based on your highest completed key with which you can upgrade the gear you got from the previous week to heroic raid quality. For example 1-6 could award you one token, 7-9 two tokens and 10+ three tokens.
    • Remove titanforging and instead reduce the amount of loot we get from various sources in order to make the things we do get feel more meaningful. In a perfect system you'd get all the gear you want from your raid difficulty of choice a couple of weeks before the next raid comes out (on average).
    • Valor points and honor points are re-added to the game and and have a cap that should net you one piece of gear per week (two pieces if you cap out both valor and honor). Honor vendors also sell upgrade tokens that cost as much as a piece of gear, you can use those to upgrade your gear to heroic raid item levels.

    These things ensure that you have a meaningful and rewarding progression path through gear that isn't instantly invalidated when a new season starts. The base dungeon gear increases every season, that's your catch-up method to get you in to normal raiding. There is no overlap in difficulties and with titanforging gone there's no reason to start off a new season by clearing or split running a difficulty that's trivial to you because of upgrades. Normal mode raiders continue progressing normal from day one, heroic raiders continue with heroic and so on.
    How exactly isn't this the same thing? Your linear progression path clearly overlaps in exactly the same way LFR cuts in the middle of Normal and ends at the start of Honor/Valor, Normal cuts through Honor/Valor and Heroic and ends at the start of Mythic which is exactly the same thing but instead of getting the direct piece of gear, you have to get the gear and then upgrade it.

    As far as gear getting invalidated when a new season starts, this has literally happened with every new tier since forever. Now older content getting invalidated aka catch up (except for Mythic+) has been done on purpose since BC times so that new and returning players are not stuck for a long having to complete old content so they can get into current action.

    The problems to gearing are gear inflation which is more than double per expansion due to many difficulties and the randomness of gear drops. Old gear and content getting invalidated by new releases is natural.

    The only other problem of M+ is stagnation. One new affix for each new tier and a mega dungeon at the end isn't really cutting it. A better approach would be to release an expansion with say 6 dungeons and then every tier add 6 more.
    Warlock soloing https://www.youtube.com/user/Firedemon012 (old & abandoned)

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    First, get stuffed removing normal/heroic dungeons.

    Secondly, are you suggesting I should hang on to an entire week's worth of loot to upgrade one or two later on?
    No. Hold on to the pieces you're interested in upgrading. It removes some of the complete RNG we have now and put a little bit of control back into the hands of the players while at the same time not being completely broken and over rewarding.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Preach and other shitters like him simply make a score off unwashed massed with their "revelations" and these said masses swallow it all hook line and sinker.
    Preach's YouTube channel is completely de-monetized, meaning he ears a grand total of 0 money for any of his videos, ever.

  16. #56
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Played every expansion, and also Classic, and it is just amazing how pointless gear feels in BFA.
    Yes, the gear treadmill is broken, it's broken because short-term it feels good to get showered in loot. It's when you then realize that you've already shot past your "goals" that the game falls apart. I start to feel that with just single digit amount of afternoons at 120 because I don't raid. The only way to enjoy any sort of gear progression, albeit short, in BFA is to progression raid Heroic. Freaking sad.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The biggest challenge of WoW is designing for the many different audiences that play the game.
    Yeah, you're trying to satisfy players who doesn't even enjoy playing RPGs, and thus you're alienating those who do.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    How exactly isn't this the same thing? Your linear progression path clearly overlaps in exactly the same way LFR cuts in the middle of Normal and ends at the start of Honor/Valor, Normal cuts through Honor/Valor and Heroic and ends at the start of Mythic which is exactly the same thing but instead of getting the direct piece of gear, you have to get the gear and then upgrade it
    Check again. LFR S02 drops 5 iLvls lower than NM S01, meaning that a NM raider have no reason to start the new season by doing a trivial version of the raid, they can keep progressing on NM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Effort can mean either time investment or doing something difficult, or both.

    When you can get the best rewards in the game from neither of those two ways then that's what people will do.
    And you think this was not the case in Vanilla? You had whole specs like feral being carried by level 40 item from a dungeon and plenty others having their BiS item found not in raid but in utterly mundane activity like dungeon or even bloody AH in case of spellpower items.

    Your memory seems fuzzy if you think that what you have said was not a thing in Vanilla. Heck in Vanilla you had completely lopsided cases where what was supposed to be your big THING like tier sets was a frikkin' garbage because Blizzard vision when they designed the set completely shattered on the concrete of reality like in case of my paladin. I mean I at some point rocked bloody cloth robe because it was better than anything paladin specific or let alone plate I could get. Why I did it? Because I was a bloody healbot in raid, as it was the only viable way to play paladin in raid and Blizz kept tossing completely useless salad of stats on Paladin gear in their utter identity crisis spree that drove me mad.

    That's why gear was "memorable" per some cupcake above. Because getting a legit optimal piece that made sense was like a "wtf" moment.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    There are smarter people than him. You should not listen any idiot that is on you tube. His name fits his story - Preaching nostalgic bullshit that no one wants except nostalgic players. Luckily, not everyone is nostalgic.
    While I think this guy is a turnip and always sprouting nonsense. He has a point this time.

    Although this isn't new to BFA it happened in Wrath. Gearing changed right off the word go in wrath and soon as Uld launched none bothered to go back to nax and this has just carried on since.

    In TBC, everyone had their own personal progression through raids. SWP was out and you'd still have guilds working their way on Karazhan and Maggies. Guilds were constantly at different tier progression. You worked your way up, losing members for them to advance was common, so was gaining new members to replace them. Hell the server top guilds specifically had guilds at lower tiers as recruitment for their main teams.

    It was really, really nice and it was one of the main factors in forming communities on servers.

  20. #60
    I am Murloc! RoKPaNda's Avatar
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    lol. Preach is probably one of my least favorite YouTubers to listen to.

    They're not going to remove Titanforging/Warforging. It's insanely popular with the casuals and the only legitimate complaint that us Mythic raiders had was addressed already. People don't seem to understand just how rare and not worth fishing for a TF proc is.

    Preach is an odd one because he doesn't understand that there is nothing that Blizzard can do that's going to make Mythic raiding more appealing. The high end of raiding was stagnant long before they even added Mythic difficulty and that's not going to change. They could remove all other forms of raiding from the game completely and it wouldn't inspire anyone to step into Mythic. We're such a small percentage of the game's population that catering to us would be an absolutely idiotic decision. The casuals prefer the game the way it is now, and they're what keeps this game afloat. Not us. We're here because this game has the best PvE hands down, we're not going anywhere. They can afford to tax us a little. They can't afford to piss off the casuals though.

    The previous tier has been obsolete at the start of the next tier for a long time now, that's not going to change either.

    If he wants to go back to the old way of doing things that the entire industry has moved away from, he's more than welcome to wait for Classic and see how that works out for him.
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