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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    so now we gonna argue on who is older and more experience ? really ?

    ok as 30+ year old i can tell that gamers for sure changed - games which 20 years ago were considered mega easy would be considered nowadays as mega hardcore .
    games got easier , much much much faster paced and they are now mostly plug and play - we are ofc speaking about gaming online

    single player games are more or less the same as they have been always but loot at titles which are succesfull online - most of them offer mega fast 5-30 minuts single out sessions - and people love this because they can play 2-3 of those and go do something else - its perfect for teens and for young adoults.

    wow is a dinosaur which doesnt fit this "vision" - because nowawadays gaming - hoverer you like to look at it is considered as cool&fun activity - ofc gaming done in such fast short sessions - nobody wants to be a nerd who spend whole week on 1 game - but its cool to tell that you played game for a hour or 2 - not whole evening.

    wow simply doesnt fit in nowadays world. its a dinosaur game for dinosaur gamers .

    and as all dinosaurs it will eventually go extinct.
    Kids want the same thing they always do. Most want social interaction. They gravitate towards games with social interaction. Game developers are mostly introverted and make solo games. So you have a war between those factions, with customers wanting one thing and then the devs "following their passion" and making something most don't want.

    It never changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    so now we gonna argue on who is older and more experience ? really ?

    ok as 30+ year old i can tell that gamers for sure changed - games which 20 years ago were considered mega easy would be considered nowadays as mega hardcore .
    games got easier , much much much faster paced and they are now mostly plug and play - we are ofc speaking about gaming online

    single player games are more or less the same as they have been always but loot at titles which are succesfull online - most of them offer mega fast 5-30 minuts single out sessions - and people love this because they can play 2-3 of those and go do something else - its perfect for teens and for young adoults.

    wow is a dinosaur which doesnt fit this "vision" - because nowawadays gaming - hoverer you like to look at it is considered as cool&fun activity - ofc gaming done in such fast short sessions - nobody wants to be a nerd who spend whole week on 1 game - but its cool to tell that you played game for a hour or 2 - not whole evening.

    wow simply doesnt fit in nowadays world. its a dinosaur game for dinosaur gamers .

    and as all dinosaurs it will eventually go extinct.
    nah kids havent changed. They'll still game for 12+hrs straight on a single game easy. WoW just isnt worth investing time into right now.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Well the core point of any RPG is to progress and customize your character over a long period of time in order to overcome more difficult obstacles. In WoW most of these things have been removed over the years so gear is essentially the only thing left.

    The problems with gear in the current iteration are many. First of all the stats are pretty boring and shallow and mostly just give you +power so iLvl is the only thing you look at, there's no depth that requires you to balance and cap certain stats and there are no interesting gems and enchants to tailor the pieces to fit your character, not that it would make much sense with the bland stats. They even removed gem slots and interesting enchants from gear.

    There's also way too much gear and you get too much of it, when you get gear every five minutes it doesn't feel special. This causes gear to lose it's identity and is why nobody can name a single piece of gear they have equipped. It's just haste/mastery bracers, they're so anonymous and you switch them out regularly so it doesn't matter.

    There's also the random nature of the gear. Even if the stats were interesting and had depth to them and there were like 5 pair of bracers in the game instead of 50 you couldn't find the one you liked and go after it because titanforging and random sockets prevent that.

    Then there's the reset problem. Catchup mechanics are good, they allow people to get in to the latest content if done right. Currently however all your gear is replaced from doing trivial content when a new patch comes out regardless of what level you play the game which negates the whole point of progressing your character in the first place.

    Lastly there's the issue of gear being pointless. The outside world scales to your iLvl, PvP battles are normalized so that gear don't matter. The only two places where better gear actually matters are dungeons and raids, doing the same content you're already doing just at a different difficulty level.
    I could go over your points one by one but there is no point if we try to see "the bigger picture" of things.

    Blizzard dont want gearing to be complicated (they have said it many times)
    So no gem slots, no customization, no doing old content...always moving forward.
    Thats just how they want the game to be...what can we do?

    Trying to see the bigger picture again:
    What would a improved and awesome gearing system bring to this game? Would it make the community happier and subscribed longer?
    My opinion is "No, in this current iteration of the game and following Blizzards vision on how current WoW must be...there is no point"

    Because "gearing" without customization DOESNT open up new content for you to play. It DOESNT increase your level of happiness and wont keep you subscribed longer.

    So there is no point in making "gearing fun" because...it wont keep you subscribed longer.

    Does it?

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I could go over your points one by one but there is no point if we try to see "the bigger picture" of things.

    Blizzard dont want gearing to be complicated (they have said it many times)
    So no gem slots, no customization, no doing old content...always moving forward.
    Thats just how they want the game to be...what can we do?

    Trying to see the bigger picture again:
    What would a improved and awesome gearing system bring to this game? Would it make the community happier and subscribed longer?
    My opinion is "No, in this current iteration of the game and following Blizzards vision on how current WoW must be...there is no point"

    Because "gearing" without customization DOESNT open up new content for you to play. It DOESNT increase your level of happiness and wont keep you subscribed longer.

    So there is no point in making "gearing fun" because...it wont keep you subscribed longer.

    Does it?
    Look at systems in FF14 like Eureka, a hell of a grind, for several different iterations but its exciting to hit milestones for the work. You can get a decent ilvl from doing it even if you dont wanna ever raid. So casuals like what i currently am in FF can actually work towards something meaningful and it feels good.

    MMOs have such an enormous wellspring of opportunity available to them I just feel like its not being used as well as it could.

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Isilarya View Post
    Look at systems in FF14 like Eureka, a hell of a grind, for several different iterations but its exciting to hit milestones for the work. You can get a decent ilvl from doing it even if you dont wanna ever raid. So casuals like what i currently am in FF can actually work towards something meaningful and it feels good.
    But what will you do once you unlock/get said gear?

    1)quit the game?
    2)Try different builds (wont happen in wow because there is no customization)?
    3)Do old content without any kind of reward for the "fun" of it?

    MMOs have such an enormous wellspring of opportunity available to them I just feel like its not being used as well as it could.
    I agree completely with this!

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    No. But entertainment and possibly gamers are. Maybe not everyone. Sports are seasonal. Now there are external reason for this, such as players needs rest, weather etc. But this is actually a good thing because otherwise the sport could run all year long. Particularly those that are exclusively indoors and are not affected by the weather.

    I think Blizzard understands this. Why? They can see what players are doing, how often and when. We do not. We only see the game through our own limited vision and the circle we move in.

    Their choices have made the game more accessible. If anything, this has made people feel less of a snowflakes rather than more. Also, my experience has been that there has more complaints about how the game is more accessible.

    It seems you have this view given the the statement you made.



    You still can. You can challenge yourself. Blizzard, as far as I know, have not removed the hardest difficulty. So why are you not still not completing those? Because you can acquire better gear elsewhere? Then you sound like the casuals players. You are playing for gear. Not for the challenge.

    You can get the best gear possible outside of raid. How often does that happen? Are you saying you get geared to the same level of a mythic raiding in almost the same amount of time? If I had that kind of luck, I rather use it on the lottery. People are confusing just because you can, you will. What are the drop chance of a mythic gear in WQ vs the chance in a mythic raid?



    Catchup has been around much earlier than BFA. It started late in TBC according to some and was the norm in WoTLK.
    Yes, Blizzard can make their game however they want. However since they have started going down this 'seasonal' road, the players stop caring about coming back or wanting to play anymore. Fans of the actual game don't recognize the game they have been playing all these years and casuals are off playing other things anyway. So you are only going to alienate your core fans. The game grew just fine and maintained when it was an actual RPG game and not seasonal garbage. Your opinion is yours, and I have mine. They are killing their own game in the long run with this mentality.

    What one players sees as challenging is different from another. For me a challenge is competing on the leaderboards in raids. WF/TF/RNG gear makes this almost impossible as pretty much everyone is wearing some form of different gear. So no there is no challenge in the game for me. Mythic fights aren't difficult, much like any raid it's getting 19 other people to not suck and kill things. I could care less about gear, so it's nice you to assume why myself and others play the game. The amount of time, gold, & materials in-game to progress in mythic just isn't worth the time anymore.

    Who cares how long catch-up has been around? I am well aware how long it's been around. You are just deflecting the point I made with another meaningless point. It doesn't change the fact there is no reason to log in to progress your character when I can catch up in AP and gear in the next patch.

  7. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    So there is no point in making "gearing fun" because...it wont keep you subscribed longer.

    Does it?
    It very well might? Assuming there's a tangible goal in gear progression that's both meaningful and achieveable in reasonable amount of time. Currently, this doesn't really happen. Titanforging and random sockets destroyed any concept of BiS list or targetting specific items, since you'll just use whatever procs the highest. There are no guaranteed, concrete rewards outside of Azerite vendor... and even then, the "concrete" part is absurdly expensive, to the point that you might as well save that residue for the next raid tier. Emissary rewards are a lottery. World quests are a lottery. Lucky proc can end gearing up in minutes instead of making it an iterative process. M+ only offer good rewards after +7 and that's generally only done by reasonably "hardcore" players. Any other type of dungeons is largely useless.

    Sure, people who didn't care about gear early on still wouldn't give a damn about any new system. But if you could invest a set amount of time and get a set amount of rewards? Who knows. There'd be a reason to grind some reputation, collect some Warfront currency and so on. Of course it would slow down the gearing, but maybe that's the issue here and "be done quickly, wait for next patch" isn't working. We don't really know.

    For all the claims that "the casuals really benefit from this system and they love it", there isn't really any proof, just random guesses. Preach claims "casuals" contact him and say the opposite. I assume he isn't lying - maybe it's a tiny minority, maybe it's part of a larger trend, only Blizzard knows... or, well, they *should* know, because their decisions (even outside of gearing process) are baffling regardless of whatever data they have.

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    But what will you do once you unlock/get said gear?

    1)quit the game?
    2)Try different builds (wont happen in wow because there is no customization)?
    3)Do old content without any kind of reward for the "fun" of it?
    Do you ever automatically quit a game when you get the most powerful stuff or finally complete something you have worked for? I for one am now free to go do other things. Some people like to do other things: old titles or mounts to farm, work on gearing up an alt, pvp, any other number of things you could go do in game. What you see as rewarding or not doesn't mean someone else doesn't. I swear everyone assumes their own opinions as fact on this forum. Not to mention most people have no idea what an MMO even is these days. WoW is not the standard for how an MMO should be made/played.
    Last edited by crono14; 2019-03-21 at 03:02 PM.

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    It very well might? Assuming there's a tangible goal in gear progression that's both meaningful and achieveable in reasonable amount of time. Currently, this doesn't really happen. Titanforging and random sockets destroyed any concept of BiS list or targetting specific items, since you'll just use whatever procs the highest. There are no guaranteed, concrete rewards outside of Azerite vendor... and even then, the "concrete" part is absurdly expensive, to the point that you might as well save that residue for the next raid tier. Emissary rewards are a lottery. World quests are a lottery. Lucky proc can end gearing up in minutes instead of making it an iterative process. M+ only offer good rewards after +7 and that's generally only done by reasonably "hardcore" players. Any other type of dungeons is largely useless.

    Sure, people who didn't care about gear early on still wouldn't give a damn about any new system. But if you could invest a set amount of time and get a set amount of rewards? Who knows. There'd be a reason to grind some reputation, collect some Warfront currency and so on. Of course it would slow down the gearing, but maybe that's the issue here and "be done quickly, wait for next patch" isn't working. We don't really know.

    For all the claims that "the casuals really benefit from this system and they love it", there isn't really any proof, just random guesses. Preach claims "casuals" contact him and say the opposite. I assume he isn't lying - maybe it's a tiny minority, maybe it's part of a larger trend, only Blizzard knows... or, well, they *should* know, because their decisions (even outside of gearing process) are baffling regardless of whatever data they have.
    But you dont give any reasons for players to stay subscribed after getting said gear.
    Gearing doesnt open up a new world to explore. The game just ends.
    I ask you again, "why make gearing fun if it wont make people subscribed longer?"
    LOL the only thing can make people stay subscribed longer in "gearing" is if you make it harder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    Do you ever automatically quit a game when you get the most powerful stuff or finally complete something you have worked for? I for one am now free to go do other things. Some people like to do other things: old titles or mounts to farm, work on gearing up an alt, pvp, any other number of things you could go do in game. What you see as rewarding or not doesn't mean someone else doesn't. I swear everyone assumes their own opinions as fact on this forum. Not to mention most people have no idea what an MMO even is these days. WoW is not the standard for how an MMO should be made/played.
    Ah, so the "other things" are making people play the game.
    Not "gearing".

    Exactly my point.

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post



    Ah, so the "other things" are making people play the game.
    Not "gearing".

    Exactly my point.
    I mean I never played for gear and I have been around since Vanilla. Gear comes naturally from doing content. Sure some people might play solely for gear, but those people might need that gear to also be able to compete on leaderboards, for pvp, or anything else they might want to accomplish in the game. Gear is a tool to help you accomplish your goals/rewards whatever they might be. It's why achievements exist, guilds who like to try and speed run things, maybe run different comps/alts. Solo people can also play alts, do whatever the heck they want. Having a bar that no one can ever reach might frustrate some people who like to feel a sense of completion. You can't say anyone is right or wrong in this aspect.

  11. #791
    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    The game grew just fine and maintained when it was an actual RPG game and not seasonal garbage. Your opinion is yours, and I have mine. They are killing their own game in the long run with this mentality.
    You are making an assumption on how the game grew. It was growing no doubt but we know nothing else about the players and what they were doing in the game.

    As you have your opinion. I have mine. My opinion is that WoW was never an RPG despite the tag. Everything is on rails. That in my view makes it an AA. Action Adventure. No different to Diablo.


    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    I could care less about gear, so it's nice you to assume why myself and others play the game. The amount of time, gold, & materials in-game to progress in mythic just isn't worth the time anymore.
    Apparent you do because I was replying to it. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    Who cares how long catch-up has been around? I am well aware how long it's been around. You are just deflecting the point I made with another meaningless point. It doesn't change the fact there is no reason to log in to progress your character when I can catch up in AP and gear in the next patch.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    You are making an assumption on how the game grew. It was growing no doubt but we know nothing else about the players and what they were doing in the game.

    As you have your opinion. I have mine. My opinion is that WoW was never an RPG despite the tag. Everything is on rails. That in my view makes it an AA. Action Adventure. No different to Diablo.




    Apparent you do because I was replying to it. See below.
    I mean are you trying to argue just to argue? A game grew in numbers and popularity for any other reason than it being a good RPG game. So obviously it must have been a good game that attracted fans of the genre and broke down the wall between people that never played MMO's previously for whatever reason they had to not play them. We do know what everyone else who didn't raid was doing. They were exploring the world, pvp'ing, doing dungeons for the experience and gear themselves outside of raids to progress their character, and really doing whatever they wanted. We didn't have achievements, side stuff to do, world quests, or anything like that. It was a new journey and adventure everyone was on. So obviously everyone had plenty to do.

    Your opinion of an RPG must be pretty messed up then.

    A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.
    So assume role of character in fictional setting - Check
    Acting out your role within a narrative(there were many narratives in Vanilla and each expansion) - Check
    Acting out role in process of structured decision-making regarding character development(talent tree and gear choices for example) - Check
    Actions taken within games may succeed or fail according to rules and guidelines - Check
    Many other reasons I can think of would all be checks as well.

    So your opinion of what an RPG is what? The combat might be somewhat of action adventure, but it still is most certainly an RPG.
    Last edited by crono14; 2019-03-21 at 06:13 PM.

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    I mean are you trying to argue just to argue? A game grew in numbers and popularity for any other reason than it being a good RPG game. So obviously it must have been a good game that attracted fans of the genre and broke down the wall between people that never played MMO's previously for whatever reason they had to not play them. We do know what everyone else who didn't raid was doing. They were exploring the world, pvp'ing, doing dungeons for the experience and gear themselves outside of raids to progress their character, and really doing whatever they wanted. We didn't have achievements, side stuff to do, world quests, or anything like that. It was a new journey and adventure everyone was on. So obviously everyone had plenty to do.

    Your opinion of an RPG must be pretty messed up then.



    So assume role of character in fictional setting - Check
    Acting out your role within a narrative(there were many narratives in Vanilla and each expansion) - Check
    Acting out role in process of structured decision-making regarding character development(talent tree and gear choices for example) - Check
    Actions taken within games may succeed or fail according to rules and guidelines - Check
    Many other reasons I can think of would all be checks as well.

    So your opinion of what an RPG is what? The combat might be somewhat of action adventure, but it still is most certainly an RPG.
    "WoW is not an RPG" is buzzword salad.
    RPG since the 80's to this day have been presented in a myriad different ways. Latching on to "hurr i cant buy ammo" is stupid as fuck because in wow you had stats allocated to you instead of you allocating it yourself, so you could cry that wow was never an RPG.

    You could also argue, using that same evidence that the final fantasy series isn't an rpg. Which we all know isn't true.

    It's a bad attempt to obfuscate.

  14. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    But you dont give any reasons for players to stay subscribed after getting said gear.


    If you make gearing hard and therefore take more time, people stay subbed longer because they won't be getting "said gear" instantly. Then once you had said gear, you'd use it to springboard to do other things faster or at all
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    If you make gearing hard and therefore take more time, people stay subbed longer because they won't be getting "said gear" instantly. Then once you had said gear, you'd use it to springboard to do other things faster or at all
    False, the game was the "most popular" when there were handouts galore.

  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    False, the game was the "most popular" when there were handouts galore.
    I beg to differ. The longest my sub, and to a lesser extent, had people to play with, lasted without interruptions was in Vanilla, with the GM/HW grind. Arguably the most difficult time to get gear.

    After that, BC. Again, slow gearing.

    If Blizzard made "epics" - "EPIC!!!!" again, the gear rewards would feel better. I was out of blues in BFA by week 2.

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    If you make gearing hard and therefore take more time, people stay subbed longer because they won't be getting "said gear" instantly. Then once you had said gear, you'd use it to springboard to do other things faster or at all
    Blizzard can make the gearing take more time...but in the end you will still do nothing with said gear.

  18. #798
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    As per the Q&A it's not going anywhere, which shouldn't be a surprise to ANYONE because the current way of doing things is more fun for the normal people that play this game. Catering to those of us that raid Mythic makes literally zero sense. Ever.
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  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    I beg to differ. The longest my sub, and to a lesser extent, had people to play with, lasted without interruptions was in Vanilla, with the GM/HW grind. Arguably the most difficult time to get gear.

    After that, BC. Again, slow gearing.

    If Blizzard made "epics" - "EPIC!!!!" again, the gear rewards would feel better. I was out of blues in BFA by week 2.
    anecdotal evidence is no evidence

    subgraph.jpg, game had the highest running sub count during wotlk when gear was the easiest to get.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    As per the Q&A it's not going anywhere, which shouldn't be a surprise to ANYONE because the current way of doing things is more fun for the normal people that play this game. Catering to those of us that raid Mythic makes literally zero sense. Ever.
    While I agree with you, the casuals always seek to emulate what the top players do, sooooo

  20. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    False, the game was the "most popular" when there were handouts galore.
    You mean it started cratering when handouts galore started? (TOC/ICC into CATA era).

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Blizzard can make the gearing take more time...but in the end you will still do nothing with said gear.
    People get enjoyment out of gaining power, especially when they subjectively feel it means something.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

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