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  1. #781
    Mechagnome Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    -- but at the end of the day... i fail to see how the system is suddenly so broken in BfA when it existed since forever.
    Technically, you're wrong, because... well, you know... dif.modes? What naturally affects speed/way of content consumption and progress (by the way, they were almost the same things before, but now probably aren't )
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-03-21 at 07:32 AM.
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  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Frequency at which you get gear is a totally different topic, yet it's equally difficult, especially with Mythic+.
    That's where my suggestion from the original comes out. There is a way to put m+ on roughly the same gear acquisition as raids by using upgrade tokens.

    * At the end of the week you get a number of upgrade tokens based on your highest completed key. These could be of varying quality with some normal, some heroic and maybe one mythic on occasion.
    * M+ always drop the same iLvl loot regardless of your key, it could be the same as heroic dungeons or whatever, it doesn't really matter.
    * You keep the pieces you are interested in for the duration of the week or in a GUI or something if bag space is precious.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Normal of a new raid tier has to reward higher itemlvl then heroic of the previous tier.

    Any guild that raids normal will sooner or later clear it, and even if they don't clear heroic, will progress a decent junk through it. As there's generally a piece for most slots on the early bosses (you need variety in loot, as in more then one option per slot), they'll get heroic itemlvl by the end of a raid tier - even if you remove all of the other heroic itemlvl sources (i.e. m+ or worldbosses).

    The casual raid of my guild is now at ~403 average itemlvl 12 weeks in. They very rarely do their weekly mythic+, and they spent a lot of time on normal, they killed 6 heroic bosses by now. Yet they're still on 403 itemlvl - with mostly a single source of gear (= raids) - and we're half way through the raid tier duration.

    If you look back to WoD - you had normal hellfire (at the early bosses) award 690, while foundry heroic was 685. That was also the case for MoP (normal SoO was +5 itemlvl from heroic ToT), and also the case for Cataclysm. (it wasn't in WotLk as 10/25 was different then)

    There's only a 10 itemlvl room to move down from the current system, as normal of a new tier always has to be higher then heroic of the previous tier. It's been that way since the probably the creation of normal (but we look

    Frequency at which you get gear is a totally different topic, yet it's equally difficult, especially with Mythic+.

    Mythic+ is it's own progression path. It is also it's own competition. You can't have mythic raiders with their superior itemlvl dominate mythic+ rankings. That's not a competition. To keep the mythic+ competition as a competition, mythic+ has to award an equal itemlvl to mythic+ at an appropriate level of difficulty (you can argue that this is currently not the case) in an appropriate amount of time. The randomness and frequency of the weekly chest hardly fits that requirement, the randomness and titanforging of doing many, many runs, will eventually reach it.

    -- but at the end of the day... i fail to see how the system is suddenly so broken in BfA when it existed since forever.
    It's been broke since legion actually but it takes time for burnout from having to farm everything to take effect.

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Technically, you're wrong, because... well, you know... dif.modes? What naturally affects speed/way of content consumption and progress (by the way, it was almost the same things before, but now probably aren't )
    you argument is flawed in the point that it speeds the way of consumption.

    i disagree strongly - it doesnt speed it up it allows it to be consumed in the first place.

    because intoduction of normal/flex all those people were not doin raiding at all .

    they dont consume content faster - only at their own slow pace.

  5. #785
    Mechagnome Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you argument is flawed in the point that it speeds the way of consumption.

    i disagree strongly - it doesnt speed it up it allows it to be consumed in the first place.

    because intoduction of normal/flex all those people were not doin raiding at all .

    they dont consume content faster - only at their own slow pace.
    We (exactly with you) have already argued on this topic and didn't come to a clear agreement: I cited all possible arguments, and you simply continued to deny them without refuting. I see no point in continuing this process anymore, just a lot of wasted time. Think what you like, but you're wrong (I'll do it same way as you = didn't see your desire to communicate, only need for attention, with now being the same situation).

    ps. Start for example from explaining concepts of "content" and "progress" in your head (I did this, see links above (where also other proofs you requested are actually located), but you didn't).
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you dont want to argue because you have 0 arguments . only flawed vision that every players dream is to wipe countless times on all bosses.

    its been proven multiple times by blizzard themselves that people will not raise to chalenge - that why they put both lfr and flex into game

    to counter vision of people like you .

    but be my guess - keep whining that your way is correct - and blizzard will keep doing something completly opposite - because you are simply wrong.
    Say this more often to yourself, since self-complacence system is mostly proven working one. I can only welcome this, good luck Opposite action, probably, will be even mannerless in this particular hopeless case.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-03-21 at 12:11 PM.
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  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    We (exactly with you) have already argued on this topic and didn't come to a clear agreement: I cited all possible arguments, and you simply continued to deny them without refuting. I see no point in continuing this process. Think what you like, but you're wrong (I'll do it same way as you ).

    ps. Start for example from explaining concepts of "content" and "progress" in your head (I did this, see links above, but you didn't).
    you dont want to argue because you have 0 arguments . only flawed vision that every players dream is to wipe countless times on all bosses.

    its been proven multiple times by blizzard themselves that people will not raise to chalenge - that why they put both lfr and flex into game

    to counter vision of people like you .

    but be my guess - keep whining that your way is correct - and blizzard will keep doing something completly opposite - because you are simply wrong.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    More importantly you had to do an activity similar to what you were currently doing in order to replace your gear, like replacing your raid gear with gear from the new raid. In BfA the most trivial content in the game gave you mythic Uldir quality gear OR BETTER.
    well yeah, it takes so little time exclusively due to the new sources of gear that popped up in legion and WF/TF. the amount of loot from raid bosses hasn't increased since wotlk to my knowledge

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by ToxicFlame View Post
    well yeah, it takes so little time exclusively due to the new sources of gear that popped up in legion and WF/TF. the amount of loot from raid bosses hasn't increased since wotlk to my knowledge
    It has increased massively. Try going into HFC with legacy loot on and you'll see what I mean. It's like 1 piece of loot per 2 people or something ridiculous like that.

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    It has increased massively. Try going into HFC with legacy loot on and you'll see what I mean. It's like 1 piece of loot per 2 people or something ridiculous like that.
    doesn't legacy loot increase drops from content that is more than 11 levels lower?

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Raysz View Post
    He puts a lot of effort into making his voice heard yes, doesn't make it a good voice though. And yeah, I have an opinion, and so does everybody else. My main issue with Preach is that he seems to think that his opinion carries more weight, and he's just very negative in general. He lacks nuance and goes for hyperboles because he knows it will get him more views. I hate people who are like that.
    The very way how gearing works is not an opinion. It's a fact. You can't argue with that. His opinion is that he doesn't like it. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but just how gearing works remains a fact.

  11. #791
    Pit Lord Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I didn't post in this thread because i dont see the gearing system as a problem...at all.
    Therefore i didnt see a reason to post here.

    Once someone gets the gear they want they either stop playing or decide to "flex" in random groups on damage meters.
    Obtaining gear was since classic a reason to flex your power to others.

    Gear scaling is a thing now in PvP so you can no longer flex there.
    Thats the only difference

    I dont see the problem...

    Even if gearing was more fun...in the end it wouldnt fix any major thing in the game.

    Same thing for titanforging.
    People talk about that a lot.
    Who cares?
    Removing titanforging would NOT acomplish anything relevant to the game.

    I just dont see the point in this discussions.
    This post is so random I don't even know where to begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post


    Gear being obsoleted by new raid tier is a thing from late TBC, so again I am not sure how you and some others suddenly make such a big issue out of it.
    I'm afraid you don't understand the meaning of "obsolete"
    Last edited by Daffan; 2019-03-21 at 12:29 PM.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    This post is so random I don't even know where to begin.
    Whats random about it?

    I dont see "gearing" as a major problem of WoW.
    "Gearing" is not gameplay. Its rewards.

    The only gameplay "gearing" gives is if it offers customization and WoW doesnt have customization.

    My other point is that gearing once unlocked gives you the possibility to "flex" your power to the community.
    Either by DPS meters on random groups or in PvP.

    Sadly (or not) PvP now has scaling so gear doesnt matter.

    Why is my post confusing?

  13. #793
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    I liked the gym analogy that was brought forth in previous pages. In a world where everyone but the most fanatical gymbreakers (i.e. Mythic raiders) are "normalized" in power after a few months, I can't see a lot of people desiring to work towards being fit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by ToxicFlame View Post
    doesn't legacy loot increase drops from content that is more than 11 levels lower?
    No it just enables group loot instead of personal loot. The amount of loot that you get on average (since personal loot is a bit uneven) is the same.

  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    MMO's are not seasonal games at all, and this is why WoW is in the state it's in. Blizzard does not understand this. All of the bad choices they have made to make the casuals feel like special snowflakes have deteriorated the core of what the game has always been.
    No. But entertainment and possibly gamers are. Maybe not everyone. Sports are seasonal. Now there are external reason for this, such as players needs rest, weather etc. But this is actually a good thing because otherwise the sport could run all year long. Particularly those that are exclusively indoors and are not affected by the weather.

    I think Blizzard understands this. Why? They can see what players are doing, how often and when. We do not. We only see the game through our own limited vision and the circle we move in.

    Their choices have made the game more accessible. If anything, this has made people feel less of a snowflakes rather than more. Also, my experience has been that there has more complaints about how the game is more accessible.

    It seems you have this view given the the statement you made.

    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    Why waste my time raiding or doing anything to challenge myself when I can log in an hour or two a week and still be able to get the best gear possible? This is why guilds break up and people quit, there is no longer any incentive to play the game. I can have fun and challenge myself with those same people in a myriad of other games.
    You still can. You can challenge yourself. Blizzard, as far as I know, have not removed the hardest difficulty. So why are you not still not completing those? Because you can acquire better gear elsewhere? Then you sound like the casuals players. You are playing for gear. Not for the challenge.

    You can get the best gear possible outside of raid. How often does that happen? Are you saying you get geared to the same level of a mythic raiding in almost the same amount of time? If I had that kind of luck, I rather use it on the lottery. People are confusing just because you can, you will. What are the drop chance of a mythic gear in WQ vs the chance in a mythic raid?

    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    BFA's problems aside, there is literally no reason to log in to progress your character cause I can just come back in a month or two and catch up with everyone else.
    Catchup has been around much earlier than BFA. It started late in TBC according to some and was the norm in WoTLK.

  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    No it just enables group loot instead of personal loot. The amount of loot that you get on average (since personal loot is a bit uneven) is the same.
    Embriel, what is exaclty the major problem of gearing not being fun?
    I dont see a major problem at all because gearing is not "gameplay" (in this case, because there is no customization in WoW)
    How exaclty is this a major problem of WoW?

    (sorry if i havent paid attention to the thread, you can link me a previous post of yours for me to read)

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Let's assume that wow isn't getting new players and it's all just current players

    My mage represents Jimmy who let's say has played BfA since launch

    Does anything change?
    The systems remain broken
    I still have no reason to do anything outside of daily emissary and invasion

    The world bosses outside of darkshore are dead gear wise
    I can get better gear from a world quest than the last raid tier

    The only reason to repeat content is RNG
    I have to do content I don't enjoy to stay caught up
    its not an assumption that wow is not getting any new players... I don't think kids nowadays want to play a game like wow. Its not fast paced enough, the new generations have a completely different idea of what fun is.

    Blizzard is trying their hardest to cater for returning players by having everything being so easy in the game but its just not working.

    Literally BFA is the only expansion where I got plenty of time in my hands due to business going well on autopilot and can't play cause there is nothing for me there.
    At this point even WoD seemed like a much better game than what we currently have.

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by tratra View Post
    its not an assumption that wow is not getting any new players... I don't think kids nowadays want to play a game like wow. Its not fast paced enough, the new generations have a completely different idea of what fun is.
    I am over 40 years old and I have never EVER seen a shred of evidence for this. And believe me, I've heard people lament this in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, 00s, and today. In my experience, kids want the exact same sort of entertainment they've always wanted. What changed was the GAME, not the kids. Blizzard has destroyed WoW by streamlining everything and simplifying everything and removing all the social elements.

    Blizzard destroyed battle.net and tried to remove ALL chat channels from their games. In response, the kids made several protest threads on their forums, begging to get socialization back into the games. Blizzard utterly refused. The kids DIDN'T CHANGE. They finally threw up their hands, left, and congregated on Discord instead. They still want socialization. They now just are forced to go to Discord to get it because Blizzard took it away. And of course they don't come to Blizzard now as much so all of Blizz's titles suffer.

    But the kids didn't change at all....
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I am over 40 years old and I have never EVER seen a shred of evidence for this. And believe me, I've heard people lament this in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, 00s, and today. In my experience, kids want the exact same sort of entertainment they've always wanted. What changed was the GAME, not the kids. Blizzard has destroyed WoW by streamlining everything and simplifying everything and removing all the social elements.

    Blizzard destroyed battle.net and tried to remove ALL chat channels from their games. In response, the kids made several protest threads on their forums, begging to get socialization back into the games. Blizzard utterly refused. The kids DIDN'T CHANGE. They finally threw up their hands, left, and congregated on Discord instead. They still want socialization. They now just are forced to go to Discord to get it because Blizzard took it away. And of course they don't come to Blizzard now as much so all of Blizz's titles suffer.

    But the kids didn't change at all....
    so now we gonna argue on who is older and more experience ? really ?

    ok as 30+ year old i can tell that gamers for sure changed - games which 20 years ago were considered mega easy would be considered nowadays as mega hardcore .
    games got easier , much much much faster paced and they are now mostly plug and play - we are ofc speaking about gaming online

    single player games are more or less the same as they have been always but loot at titles which are succesfull online - most of them offer mega fast 5-30 minuts single out sessions - and people love this because they can play 2-3 of those and go do something else - its perfect for teens and for young adoults.

    wow is a dinosaur which doesnt fit this "vision" - because nowawadays gaming - hoverer you like to look at it is considered as cool&fun activity - ofc gaming done in such fast short sessions - nobody wants to be a nerd who spend whole week on 1 game - but its cool to tell that you played game for a hour or 2 - not whole evening.

    wow simply doesnt fit in nowadays world. its a dinosaur game for dinosaur gamers .

    and as all dinosaurs it will eventually go extinct.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Embriel, what is exaclty the major problem of gearing not being fun?
    I dont see a major problem at all because gearing is not "gameplay" (in this case, because there is no customization in WoW)
    How exaclty is this a major problem of WoW?

    (sorry if i havent paid attention to the thread, you can link me a previous post of yours for me to read)
    Well the core point of any RPG is to progress and customize your character over a long period of time in order to overcome more difficult obstacles. In WoW most of these things have been removed over the years so gear is essentially the only thing left.

    The problems with gear in the current iteration are many. First of all the stats are pretty boring and shallow and mostly just give you +power so iLvl is the only thing you look at, there's no depth that requires you to balance and cap certain stats and there are no interesting gems and enchants to tailor the pieces to fit your character, not that it would make much sense with the bland stats. They even removed gem slots and interesting enchants from gear.

    There's also way too much gear and you get too much of it, when you get gear every five minutes it doesn't feel special. This causes gear to lose it's identity and is why nobody can name a single piece of gear they have equipped. It's just haste/mastery bracers, they're so anonymous and you switch them out regularly so it doesn't matter.

    There's also the random nature of the gear. Even if the stats were interesting and had depth to them and there were like 5 pair of bracers in the game instead of 50 you couldn't find the one you liked and go after it because titanforging and random sockets prevent that.

    Then there's the reset problem. Catchup mechanics are good, they allow people to get in to the latest content if done right. Currently however all your gear is replaced from doing trivial content when a new patch comes out regardless of what level you play the game which negates the whole point of progressing your character in the first place.

    Lastly there's the issue of gear being pointless. The outside world scales to your iLvl, PvP battles are normalized so that gear don't matter. The only two places where better gear actually matters are dungeons and raids, doing the same content you're already doing just at a different difficulty level.
    Last edited by Embriel; 2019-03-21 at 02:16 PM.

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