Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[Tojara]

"Welfare gear" has been in this game pretty hardcore since WoTLK, and to a lesser extent in TBC.

Remember WoTLK how you like to remember it, but it's never synonymous with hardcore lol.

[Kokolums]

I remember in bc how players were upset that the last boss in 5 mans dropped a guaranteed epic. That was welfare epics.

[rohoz]

I remember in bc how players were upset that the last boss in 5 mans dropped a guaranteed epic. That was welfare epics.

which is why the warfront whining is super stupid. They been giving out gear for nothing for ages, what's diff about warfronts?

[Gaidax]

which is why the warfront whining is super stupid. They been giving out gear for nothing for ages, what's diff about warfronts?

Pretty much. OOOoooOooOOOo Warfront gives one ilvl 400 item in 3 weeks, O M G.

[ToxicFlame]

I think the problem you keep evading is the quantities. You MAY get a lucky titanforge and Warfront drops Heroic level gear, but both of these rare. In case of Warfront - it's a once in ~3 weeks thing and in case of Titanforge - you may as well never get it because chance IS low.

I'm not going into the quantities debate because we lack official percentages and to my knowledge a way to reliably track it so we get a meaningful sample to be able to make any statistical approximations.
Personally before my sub ran out the week before m+ release I had 6 war forged/titanforged items equipped 2 of which were weapons and from my experience I wasn't really an outlier, but this is still irrelevant.

The legit offender in this whole cycle is neither TF nor Warfronts (which is nothing more than rehashed VoA, as you have noted), but M+ being unlimited potshots at gear and weekly chest of disappointment, because that's how you can realistically eventually farm out some legit gear.

If you run M+ 100 bloody times, you will eventually proc a good item, but in my opinion the effort required to do this is much more considerable than running Heroic raid, especially 2 months down the road, so I am not sure why it's so offending to see it occasionally rewarding.

Warfronts are not even a factor, you get a single ilvl 400 item once per 3 weeks? OoooOooOoooo

no it's not just one single offender and if I gave you the impression I was solely blaming WF/TF I am sorry. It is because there ar many more sources of gear available which are amplified by WF/TF. I think it's an undeniable fact that at any levels of the game you get a lot more gear than you used to, pre dungeons it's WQs which give more gear than dailies used to, then dungeons scale during the expansion making them relevant at that level throughout the xpac, 4 raid difficulties compared to 2 difficulties pre icc and 1 pre tbc and these are just off the top of my head. One of the consequences of that is that gear has been made irrelevant, as shown by raider.io, which as you have pointed out, is another form of gear score etc, but it is the first to disregard gear entirely (I may be wrong since I haven't played in cata/mop).

[Echocho]

which is why the warfront whining is super stupid. They been giving out gear for nothing for ages, what's diff about warfronts?

The quality of the epic. Warfronts give you heroic raid quality gear. It would be like TBC heroic dungeons gave you karazhan level gear or better, which they didn't.

[Sansnom]

which is why the warfront whining is super stupid. They been giving out gear for nothing for ages, what's diff about warfronts?

Nothing. People have been screaming for ages too.

[rohoz]

The quality of the epic. Warfronts give you heroic raid quality gear. It would be like TBC heroic dungeons gave you karazhan level gear or better, which they didn't.

have you ever checked the itemlevel of the end boss gear in heroics vs kara?
Did you know they had to buff kara gear to be better than them? No? Figured.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing. People have been screaming for ages too.

Ex-fucking-actly

[Gaidax]

The quality of the epic. Warfronts give you heroic raid quality gear. It would be like TBC heroic dungeons gave you karazhan level gear or better, which they didn't.

And how is it even different from World Bosses we have for years upon years now pray tell? What, one ilvl 400 item per 3 weeks is what makes you flail in impotent rage about WoW?

[KaPe]

have you ever checked the itemlevel of the end boss gear in heroics vs kara?
Did you know they had to buff kara gear to be better than them? No? Figured.

Have you check the item level of warfront? Unlike badge gear, it's not some poorly itemized gear, but something that's just a step below best stuff in game - with a random chance to surpass it. We can safely assume that if there's a third Warfront, it will still offer the same level of gear and it will be just as trivial as it is now. 10 minutes of doing almost nothing for guaranteed high quality epic has never been the case in WoW. Even getting S2 Arena weapons in TBC, which were just as good as T5 items, still required you to invest far more time than a single Warfront.

Out of all questionable gearing decision, Warfront are by far the most baffling. It clearly took them a huge amount of time to create it, yet they're only played for 10 minutes every 3 weeks and then forgotten about. It's a huge amount of wasted potential, to the point where they have to be artifically slowed by including siege weapons.

At very least, they could have offered some staggered progression there, with increasingly better rewards. Not "here's your free epic, now forget this even exists."

And how is it even different from World Bosses we have for years upon years now pray tell? What, one ilvl 400 item per 3 weeks is what makes you flail in impotent rage about WoW?

World Bosses generally offered Normal level gear and not a guaranteed one, either. A very limited selection of items, too, whereas Warfront can potentially give you anything.

[rohoz]

Have you check the item level of warfront? Unlike badge gear, it's not some poorly itemized gear, but something that's just a step below best stuff in game - with a random chance to surpass it. We can safely assume that if there's a third Warfront, it will still offer the same level of gear and it will be just as trivial as it is now. 10 minutes of doing almost nothing for guaranteed high quality epic has never been the case in WoW. Even getting S2 Arena weapons in TBC, which were just as good as T5 items, still required you to invest far more time than a single Warfront.

Out of all questionable gearing decision, Warfront are by far the most baffling. It clearly took them a huge amount of time to create it, yet they're only played for 10 minutes every 3 weeks and then forgotten about. It's a huge amount of wasted potential, to the point where they have to be artifically slowed by including siege weapons.

At very least, they could have offered some staggered progression there, with increasingly better rewards. Not "here's your free epic, now forget this even exists."
World Bosses generally offered Normal level gear and not a guaranteed one, either. A very limited selection of items, too, whereas Warfront can potentially give you anything.

random slot drops at 400 il when you get 410s from the chest and 415 from crafting? sure hun

[KaPe]

random slot drops at 400 il when you get 410s from the chest and 415 from crafting? sure hun

410 requires you to do a +10 Mythic dungeon, which is far from trivial for the majority of population. 415 requires a lot of dungeon and raid materials - the latter also has a hard weekly cap, that's pretty low unless you're already doing Mythic raids and thus have plenty of other 415 items. No matter how you look at it, both of those options require far more effort than a Warfront.

So, yeah, you sure destroyed my point there. Try again, "hun".

[rohoz]

410 requires you to do a +10 Mythic dungeon, which is far from trivial for the majority of population. 415 requires a lot of dungeon and raid materials - the latter also has a hard weekly cap, that's pretty low unless you're already doing Mythic raids and thus have plenty of other 415 items. No matter how you look at it, both of those options require far more effort than a Warfront.

So, yeah, you sure destroyed my point there. Try again, "hun".

dunno, you play on alliance? M10 400 il gear (same as warfronts) is pretty trivial

[Gaidax]

World Bosses generally offered Normal level gear and not a guaranteed one, either. A very limited selection of items, too, whereas Warfront can potentially give you anything..

You are literally nitpicking. Heck - take VoA for example - the bloody thing dropped tier and you could do it every week, compared to that one Warfront per 3 weeks is nothing.

Honestly in a world where M+ exists and weekly chest exists, I am not even sure why you are putting such OOoooOooooOoO emphasis on the big bad ilvl 400 once per 3 weeks. I'm not even saying that you "normal example" is for all intents and purposes what heroic is nowadays since they introduced mythic difficulty (or rather renamed Heroic into Mythic and Normal into Heroic).

Honestly, if you'd go some tirade about how it's unfair/bad/etc that M+ drops 400 ilvl stuff, I'd smirk, but at least there would be something to discuss seeing it's effectively unlimited and readily available. But one shot at random shit once in 3 weeks in Warfronts? Really now? That's the issue?

[KaPe]

dunno, you play on alliance? M10 400 il gear (same as warfronts) is pretty trivial

People who considered M10 trivial are already doing heroic/mythic raids. After couple weeks, additonal 400 items is meaningless and M+ chest is probably a duplicate of something they already have. They mostly care about residue.

People for whom M10 is a real source of upgrades are freshly geared players, who got their WQ, emissary, Warfront drops and now only have M7 and higher as the only real option. They aren't doing M10, not only because it's too difficult, but also because their raider.io score is too low. They aren't getting M10 chest. They aren't crafting 415 because they won't have enough materials for months.

Those are two completely different groups of players, yet your argument basically went "well, since raider A can easily get gear from multiple sources, this means random player B can as well."

[Kaver]

And how is it even different from World Bosses we have for years upon years now pray tell? What, one ilvl 400 item per 3 weeks is what makes you flail in impotent rage about WoW?

I just see no need for warfronts to give 400 ilvl gear. It doesn’t help anyone.

[Gaidax]

I just see no need for warfronts to give 400 ilvl gear. It doesn’t help anyone.

Why not? It helps casuals and alts and really it's a small help. 1 guaranteed random ilvl 400 item once per 3 weeks is not a problem of BfA, so really, just let it rest.

I'm not even sure why some people have such strong feelings about that one - it's not the first case of welfare epics and not the last and it's really really minor at that.

[Kaver]

Why not? It helps casuals and alts and really it's a small help. 1 guaranteed random ilvl 400 item once per 3 weeks is not a problem of BfA, so really, just let it rest.

I'm not even sure why some people have such strong feelings about that one - it's not the first case of welfare epics and not the last and it's really really minor at that.

I just dont think welfare epics add any value to the game. They dont encourage “bad” players to become better.

In relation to alts Blizzard should add a system based on the progress of mains instead.

[rohoz]

I just dont think welfare epics add any value to the game. They dont encourage “bad” players to become better.

In relation to alts Blizzard should add a system based on the progress of mains instead.

pass.

game is fine, learn to play.

[Kaver]

pass.

game is fine, learn to play.

Learn to play? Im against welfare in wow...