Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[justandulas]

First of all keep your Classic flagellants in check. I swear there are several individuals who jump on every thread trying to shove their classic crap down our throats and often by literally making up ridiculous shit like class mechanics in Vanilla being better than BfA, which is really a ridiculous notion.

I find it surprising to see classic aficionados being so shocked to get a pushback at that. People literally waltz in uninvited and start pushing Vanilla as some shady salesman. People rightfully tell them to go sell their stories somewhere else.

I was the person who said i enjoyed my warlock more in classic than now. That's my personal opinion. I personally enjoyed how they played more and their class identity. It's my opinion and i never claimed it was fact.

I get why you or someone else would enjoy current Warlock, but i personally loathe the current design of lock.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I did not replace my Mythic Uldir gear with WQ gear??? I did replace some of it with new heroic raid gear, that's for sure, but definitely not WQ.

I did. 2 outside rings trumped item level. GG.

[arkanon]

Weapon skills. Leveling Skills. Talent Trees. Choosing to use a lower rank of a spell to conserve mana (like in AD&D). Having to move from point A to point B, B to C, C to D, the world feeling alive with it's own social structure where server reputation mattered, etc.

Need i continue? there's room for both current and classic WoW. Classic WoW is more of the AD&D, slower paced higher reward, EQ MMORPG crowd. Current WoW is more for the insta gratification, seasonal, ARPG crowd with inspiration from Diablo 3.

I cant agree with this. Weapon skills are a joke and not worth mentioning at all....honestly, how does anyone think this crap was an "rpg element". Talent trees still exist, just in a different format. Downranking was the result of TERRIBLE class design - they corrected this by adding a new spell that took the place of the down-ranked version.

Current wow is a shambles, but the rose tinted glasses are out of control here.

[SirCowdog]

There are smarter people than him. You should not listen any idiot that is on you tube. His name fits his story - Preaching nostalgic bullshit that no one wants except nostalgic players. Luckily, not everyone is nostalgic.

Learn the lesson from Wildstar, which bombed because they thought only catering to hardcore/nostalgia difficulty would work.

[Luxeley]

This isn't about smart or dumb, this is about Xp in WOW and Preacher is highly Xp'd - probably more so than Asmongold. And yet, I'll be the first to admit Asmondgold is probably smarter than Preacher. The gear structure is a huge part of the problem with BFA, add in terrible class design and now you know why players are leaving in droves.

[Gaidax]

I was the person who said i enjoyed my warlock more in classic than now. That's my personal opinion. I personally enjoyed how they played more and their class identity. It's my opinion and i never claimed it was fact.

I get why you or someone else would enjoy current Warlock, but i personally loathe the current design of lock.

That is another story, but then you have people who say that classes were mechanically superior to BfA and this objectively is a bunch of bull. I mean, I mained a paladin and alted warlock and paladin was a disaster really when it came to gameplay, while warlock was completely binary in raids and only in PvP there was genuinely interesting, albeit basic stuff going on.

[justandulas]

I cant agree with this. Weapon skills are a joke and not worth mentioning at all....honestly, how does anyone think this crap was an "rpg element". Talent trees still exist, just in a different format. Downranking was the result of TERRIBLE class design - they corrected this by adding a new spell that took the place of the down-ranked version.

Current wow is a shambles, but the rose tinted glasses are out of control here.

Weapon skills exist in every old RPG and AD&D. It makes sense that the more you swing a particular weapon, the better at it you'll be. Otherwise, anyone could pick up a sword and be a world class fencer IRL.

Maybe they could've streamlined them a bit in terms of trainers that you pay to take lessons from daily/weekly, but the idea behind weapon skills is essential to the basics of RPG's.

Don't believe me? Go play any MMORPG that came out prior to WoW or play any AD&D style RPG. Weapon skills are just part of the RPG formula outside of JRPG's, and even then some characters are limited to weapon types because, you know, RPG's and all. See every elder scrolls game made as an example.

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That is another story, but then you have people who say that classes were mechanically superior to BfA and this objectively is a bunch of bull. I mean, I mained a paladin and alted warlock and paladin was a disaster really when it came to gameplay, while warlock was completely binary in raids and only in PvP there was genuinely interesting, albeit basic stuff going on.

Oh those people are insane. I personally liked warlock a lot better (even if they were a tad simple at high end) but paladin was a train wreck in vanilla. I can't sugar coat that some specs underperformed, or just plain sucked too bad to use. WoW classic has faults, but no game is perfect.

I won't sugar coat it's faults, but i still prefer classic to current. But hey, no need to knock either fanbase. There's good people and bad in every game fanbase. Both classic and current wow are no exceptions. I honestly don't know why or when gaming became so toxic, but we're all gamers... we should be encouraging each other to wow classic/current instead of just berating one another.

[Gadzooks]

There are smarter people than him. You should not listen any idiot that is on you tube. His name fits his story - Preaching nostalgic bullshit that no one wants except nostalgic players. Luckily, not everyone is nostalgic.

Translation: "I don't like the uncomfortable feelings his comments make me feel, so I'll wave it all away and call him something insulting."

[Gaidax]

Weapon skills exist in every old RPG and AD&D. It makes sense that the more you swing a particular weapon, the better at it you'll be. Otherwise, anyone could pick up a sword and be a world class fencer IRL.

Maybe they could've streamlined them a bit in terms of trainers that you pay to take lessons from daily/weekly, but the idea behind weapon skills is essential to the basics of RPG's.

Don't believe me? Go play any MMORPG that came out prior to WoW or play any AD&D style RPG. Weapon skills are just part of the RPG formula outside of JRPG's, and even then some characters are limited to weapon types because, you know, RPG's and all. See every elder scrolls game made as an example.

You confuse systems with role playing. D&D is held by specific system it created over the years.

Such thing as a weapon skill, especially in context of WoW made almost no sense, because again - a seasoned warrior that took down heroic threats certainly knew how to use pretty much all the weapons. And even then the whole weapon skill acquisition was simply a case of pounding some trivial mob until you got the cap and that's it - you have it forever, it's not like it was some excruciating learning process, it really was a formality.

Thats why I'm not even sure why you think weapon skill was such a thing you make it out to be.

[justandulas]

Translation: "I don't like the uncomfortable feelings his comments make me feel, so I'll wave it all away and call him something insulting."

Yeah. I could understand dismissing it if it was someone like HeelvsBabyface who thrives on the negativity and is one of those clickbait youtubers.

But people like Bellular and Preach are always pro-wow and very level headed. He had good points in the video i thought, and even if you didn't agree, he did it in a way that was respectful to all of WoW's fanbase. He didn't take the "looking down from the mountain top" position he so easily could have. He openly said he thinks BFA is about to turn a corner next patch and hit its stride..

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You confuse systems with role playing. D&D is held by specific system it created over the years.

Such thing as a weapon skill, especially in context of WoW made almost no sense, because again - a seasoned warrior that took down heroic threats certainly knew how to use pretty much all the weapons. And even then the whole weapon skill acquisition was simply a case of pounding some trivial mob until you got the cap and that's it - you have it forever, it's not like it was some excruciating learning process, it really was a formality.

Thats why I'm not even sure why you think weapon skill was such a thing you make it out to be.

Weapon skills make sense to me as an older MMO player. The more you use a weapon type, the better at it you'll be. It doesn't matter if you've slain Sargaras single handedly with a magic staff, if you've never held a mace you won't be good with it or shouldn't be, etc.

What they needed was a better way to streamline weapon skills, such as daily/weekly trainers so that people who respec at high end aren't punished, and those leveling up can still enjoy leveling up weapons. I know i did (even if you didn't, and that's fine bro)

It's why swapping to new weapon types in Elder scrolls, or Fallout can remain exciting because you have to work your way up that weapons skill trees.

[Gadzooks]

This isn't about smart or dumb, this is about Xp in WOW and Preacher is highly Xp'd - probably more so than Asmongold. And yet, I'll be the first to admit Asmondgold is probably smarter than Preacher. The gear structure is a huge part of the problem with BFA, add in terrible class design and now you know why players are leaving in droves.

Asmondgold is not smart. He's got the ability to memorize every piece of gear in the game, but most of the time he just cherry picks what other people like Preach says, and makes it his own. Seen him do it enough to pretty much ignore anything he has to say, about anything. Asmondgold is just clever, in that he's monetizing other people's ideas in a way that's not obvious to the casual viewer.

Preach is unusual, in that he doesn't have a "crusade". He loves WoW. He'll probably enjoy classic as much as retail, and he's just talking about the problems he sees in the retail game. He's not the be-all end-all WoW expert, but he is very knowledgable and has a lot of insight into the game that isn't tainted with the usual agendas from a lot of the other streamers. He just loves WoW, and loves talking about it. He wants people to play it more, and sees a big issue in the game - which looks like is very real. And, it's not just "Muh mythic" or "muh raiders" or "mug pvp" - he's seeing issues effecting the entire game. He wants everyone to enjoy playing - which is a refreshing change from the endless complaints and ravings about classic vs. retail and the overwhelming focus on raiding and mythic.

[RobertMugabe]

I'm confused... You aay there is no point in playing after seeing the content while I'm pretty sure the main argument against TF/WF is that you are forced to replay content you've done.

Also, what's the point in removing normal and hc dungeons? The purpose of them is this:

Normal is done while leveling for quests and slight boost in gear.
Heroic is there to gear for mythic.

We could argue that hc might be redundant to have but definitely not normal.

I personally dislike tokens... Buying gear just feels less rewarding to me even if it's essentially the same.

The good thing about tokens is that whenever you do X type of content, you would always get rewarded even if you were unlucky with loot drops. And actually, to me it always felt like an accomplishment when I could finally purchase a piece of gear with the tokens that I've farmed over the last couple of days.

Blizzard also seems to agree that doing content should always reward you with something, however they're doing that with azerite, which is a pretty meaningless currency for most people (you would "naturally" always get enough azerite to unlock your 1st and 2nd ring traits anyways and almost no one really cares about the next rings, which makes an azerite grind meaningless)

[Echocho]

Yeah. I could understand dismissing it if it was someone like HeelvsBabyface who thrives on the negativity and is one of those clickbait youtubers.

But people like Bellular and Preach are always pro-wow and very level headed. He had good points in the video i thought, and even if you didn't agree, he did it in a way that was respectful to all of WoW's fanbase. He didn't take the "looking down from the mountain top" position he so easily could have. He openly said he thinks BFA is about to turn a corner next patch and hit its stride..

If you listen to him speak this is not a problem he himself has since he really doesn't care that much about loot. If anything he benefits from gear being meaningless since it'll allow him to do the thing he enjoys (progress raiding) and skip the things he doesn't enjoy (farm raiding).

Preach is very unique in that way. Very few people actually play the game for just the challenge and don't really care about the character he plays and its progression. This is a problem the rest of the playerbase has, he's on the outside looking in on this one.

[justandulas]

Asmondgold is not smart. He's got the ability to memorize every piece of gear in the game, but most of the time he just cherry picks what other people like Preach says, and makes it his own. Seen him do it enough to pretty much ignore anything he has to say, about anything. Asmondgold is just clever, in that he's monetizing other people's ideas in a way that's not obvious to the casual viewer.

Preach is unusual, in that he doesn't have a "crusade". He loves WoW. He'll probably enjoy classic as much as retail, and he's just talking about the problems he sees in the retail game. He's not the be-all end-all WoW expert, but he is very knowledgable and has a lot of insight into the game that isn't tainted with the usual agendas from a lot of the other streamers. He just loves WoW, and loves talking about it. He wants people to play it more, and sees a big issue in the game - which looks like is very real. And, it's not just "Muh mythic" or "muh raiders" or "mug pvp" - he's seeing issues effecting the entire game. He wants everyone to enjoy playing - which is a refreshing change from the endless complaints and ravings about classic vs. retail and the overwhelming focus on raiding and mythic.

Asmongold and Preach are two different style of wow players. As is more of the trolly player, while Preach is one of the end game crowd. He's one of us, so to speak.

They had a big 4 way stream chat a few weeks ago talking about the loot problems and how to fix/correct them, and Asmongold was openly talking about ninja stealing loot and that he would get loot and leave guilds willy nilly and Preach was just dumbfounded and couldn't believe it. Asmongold is all abuot Asmongold. Preach understands team > player

[Pillerina]

It all comes down to preference though, I for sure enjoy the increased amount of gear but I do understand his point of view.

Scarcity is the root of value.

I used to be the most loot-driven motherfucker out there, if you asked med 10 years ago i'd have been able to recite my BiS-list from memory. I don't know the name of a single item from BFA, and from legion i only remember a few of the legendaries. Part of this is likely me growing up and no longer being an egotistical asshole, but mostly I'd argue it's because loot is so abundant there is little to no reason to care. At this point i'd say removing gear as a concept would be preferable to the current system, as that would atleast place everyone on a level playingfield, instead of RNGing out advantage to players/guilds.

[justandulas]

Scarcity is the root of value.

I used to be the most loot-driven motherfucker out there, if you asked med 10 years ago i'd have been able to recite my BiS-list from memory. I don't know the name of a single item from BFA, and from legion i only remember a few of the legendaries. Part of this is likely me growing up and no longer being an egotistical asshole, but mostly I'd argue it's because loot is so abundant there is little to no reason to care. At this point i'd say removing gear as a concept would be preferable to the current system, as that would atleast place everyone on a level playingfield, instead of RNGing out advantage to players/guilds.

It could be both, tbh. We are 10 years older so we have much more perspective on games, and games have changed a lot in 10 short years.

But scarcity is important, you remember those items and they mean more to you forever. It's the same reason why a mount of pet isn't incentive enough to keep pushing people into Mythic raiding; what good is a mount when we have hundreds of mounts? and B) That same mount is farmable next expac solo, so none of it feels special.

Same for loot. When we have 4 different options for the SAME exact same piece of gear (plus or minus a few stats, zzz) and that's not even including WF/TF, it also makes the loot feel truly kinda insignificant. Add to that the gear treadmill turnover is faster than ever and it gives a real "Why am i doing this?" feel to the average mythic raiding guild

[Pillerina]

It could be both, tbh. We are 10 years older so we have much more perspective on games, and games have changed a lot in 10 short years.

But scarcity is important, you remember those items and they mean more to you forever. It's the same reason why a mount of pet isn't incentive enough to keep pushing people into Mythic raiding; what good is a mount when we have hundreds of mounts? and B) That same mount is farmable next expac solo, so none of it feels special.

Same for loot. When we have 4 different options for the SAME exact same piece of gear (plus or minus a few stats, zzz) and that's not even including WF/TF, it also makes the loot feel truly kinda insignificant. Add to that the gear treadmill turnover is faster than ever and it gives a real "Why am i doing this?" feel to the average mythic raiding guild

Yeah, only reason to raid is that cutting edge achievement, which in the end is worthless. As such you're left with fun being the only reason to raid, and considering the effort required it's kinda difficult to find motivation to keep at it.

[justandulas]

Yeah, only reason to raid is that cutting edge achievement, which in the end is worthless. As such you're left with fun being the only reason to raid, and considering the effort required it's kinda difficult to find motivation to keep at it.

It's great for those at the bottom and solo players, and world first chasers. The vast majority of us heroic/mythic raiders are left with a shallow system that has left raiding feeling more insignificant than ever in the games history. Even Destiny has more 'exclusive' raid content than WoW currently. There are certain exotic guns/ships/mounts that are only from specific raids. Destiny currently has better raiding than WoW in terms of reward structures. Let that sink in.

[Philomene]

removing titanforged would be the dumbest idea ever. Why do you think people still play after they acquire everything? cause there is always a chance for upgrade.

lmao. why were people playing before when there was no titanforging?

tf is needed now for people to replay content because classes are shit and because of that casino slot machine reward system. before you’d be happy to get that piece of gear cause you knew it was the best you’d get anyway.

since this game is gta online in an heroic fantasy setting guess the playerbase that’s still there don’t really like rpgs but action games hence this kind of bs about how titanforging is needed in the game to keep the content relevant

lmao bis

[MoanaLisa]

I'll make another comment which is more to the point of the thread and the problem generally:

The fact that many people think of this system as a treadmill suggests how broken it is. You don't need to make any excuses about how MMO's work or anything else but whether it is game-driven or player driven (it's both) the analogy to a treadmill is bad.