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  1. #1

    Preach on the broken gear treadmill



    I think he's touching on a very important subject. With how the reward structure is set up right now it means that there's really no incentive for anyone to replay the content and progress their character after seeing the content, regardless of at what level you play the game it'll all be completely reset after 3 months anyway.

    Here's how I would fix it (spoiler: it's linear):





    • Normal/Heroic dungeons are removed, only mythic and mythic+ remain. They always drop the same iLvl loot regardless of it being a +1 or a +10, HOWEVER at the start of each reset you get a number of upgrade tokens based on your highest completed key with which you can upgrade the gear you got from the previous week to heroic raid quality. For example 1-6 could award you one token, 7-9 two tokens and 10+ three tokens.
    • Remove titanforging and instead reduce the amount of loot we get from various sources in order to make the things we do get feel more meaningful. In a perfect system you'd get all the gear you want from your raid difficulty of choice a couple of weeks before the next raid comes out (on average).
    • Valor points and honor points are re-added to the game and and have a cap that should net you one piece of gear per week (two pieces if you cap out both valor and honor). Honor vendors also sell upgrade tokens that cost as much as a piece of gear, you can use those to upgrade your gear to heroic raid item levels.

    These things ensure that you have a meaningful and rewarding progression path through gear that isn't instantly invalidated when a new season starts. The base dungeon gear increases every season, that's your catch-up method to get you in to normal raiding. There is no overlap in difficulties and with titanforging gone there's no reason to start off a new season by clearing or split running a difficulty that's trivial to you because of upgrades. Normal mode raiders continue progressing normal from day one, heroic raiders continue with heroic and so on.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    There are smarter people than him.
    Something tells me those are very few and far between on this forum.

  3. #3
    Epic! HordeFanboy's Avatar
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    Blizzard should just remove garbage unnecessary RNG and titanforge/warforge BS.
    Legion is the worst expansion
    BFA=Blizzard Failed Again
    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._google_trend/

  4. #4
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Preach and other shitters like him simply make a score off unwashed massed with their "revelations" and these said masses swallow it all hook line and sinker.

  5. #5
    You do know that item level is already increasing linearly, do you?
    The only difference is the offset between each tier and the inclination of the slope.

    Now if we're talking power granted by item level, that's a different story.
    Now on the topic of Preach, he can be interesting to listen to sometimes but he's always trying to capitalize on anything controversial and it gets pretty tiring in the long run.

  6. #6
    I'm confused... You aay there is no point in playing after seeing the content while I'm pretty sure the main argument against TF/WF is that you are forced to replay content you've done.

    Also, what's the point in removing normal and hc dungeons? The purpose of them is this:

    Normal is done while leveling for quests and slight boost in gear.
    Heroic is there to gear for mythic.

    We could argue that hc might be redundant to have but definitely not normal.

    I personally dislike tokens... Buying gear just feels less rewarding to me even if it's essentially the same.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2019-03-14 at 10:18 AM.

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    but he's always trying to capitalize on anything controversial and it gets pretty tiring in the long run.
    That's how you get 'em youtube bucks after all. He's just one of many people with agenda stirring shit up where he can and his agenda is $$ and stirring shit up is the best way to attract masses he needs.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    Now on the topic of Preach, he can be interesting to listen to sometimes but he's always trying to capitalize on anything controversial and it gets pretty tiring in the long run.
    We've had "the topic of Preach" several times before and it always boils down to the same thing: people raging like babies at his existence for not always painting the game in flowers and rainbows. His critical discussions aren't even half of his content, yet that's the only thing people here focus on. People don't even want to take said discussions because they rather put their fingers in their ear screaming lalalala.

  9. #9
    It all comes down to preference though, I for sure enjoy the increased amount of gear but I do understand his point of view.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Is that so much different than it was in the past?
    Yes, the ilvl inflation was MUCH lower in the past, limiting the automated obsolescence of content (or preventing it in the case of Vanilla and early TBC).

  11. #11
    Good video. Preach is right.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post


    I think he's touching on a very important subject. With how the reward structure is set up right now it means that there's really no incentive for anyone to replay the content and progress their character after seeing the content, regardless of at what level you play the game it'll all be completely reset after 3 months anyway.

    Here's how I would fix it (spoiler: it's linear):





    • Normal/Heroic dungeons are removed, only mythic and mythic+ remain. They always drop the same iLvl loot regardless of it being a +1 or a +10, HOWEVER at the start of each reset you get a number of upgrade tokens based on your highest completed key with which you can upgrade the gear you got from the previous week to heroic raid quality. For example 1-6 could award you one token, 7-9 two tokens and 10+ three tokens.
    • Remove titanforging and instead reduce the amount of loot we get from various sources in order to make the things we do get feel more meaningful. In a perfect system you'd get all the gear you want from your raid difficulty of choice a couple of weeks before the next raid comes out (on average).
    • Valor points and honor points are re-added to the game and and have a cap that should net you one piece of gear per week (two pieces if you cap out both valor and honor). Honor vendors also sell upgrade tokens that cost as much as a piece of gear, you can use those to upgrade your gear to heroic raid item levels.

    These things ensure that you have a meaningful and rewarding progression path through gear that isn't instantly invalidated when a new season starts. The base dungeon gear increases every season, that's your catch-up method to get you in to normal raiding. There is no overlap in difficulties and with titanforging gone there's no reason to start off a new season by clearing or split running a difficulty that's trivial to you because of upgrades. Normal mode raiders continue progressing normal from day one, heroic raiders continue with heroic and so on.
    watched it this morning . typical whining that "mythic gear isnt special enough" with slight hints/questions whether casual players are ok with current gear model.

    answear is - yes they are because they can now say "screw you elitest a...holes" and just do casual content while being nicely rewarded for it.

    and this hurts people like Preach the most - that the whole concept of "players should aspire to be better" got shattered into milion pieces.

  13. #13
    Cant you use your own brain? Why do people need others to think for them?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That's how you get 'em youtube bucks after all. He's just one of many people with agenda stirring shit up where he can and his agenda is $$ and stirring shit up is the best way to attract masses he needs.
    He's completely demonetised

    Anyway, he's not wrong. Gearing is fundamentally flawed as it stands
    Last edited by Th3Scourge; 2019-03-14 at 12:14 PM.

  15. #15
    I watched his video yesterday and quit a few weeks back mostly for that reason. There’s less incentive to mythic raid than ever considering heroic gear Wf/tf, word bosses, m+, etc have all rendered mythic raiding pretty much useless.

    On top of that, the gear treadmill has never meant less. Can anyone honestly name a single piece of gear this expac, what it’s stats are and where they got it? Gear is nothing but static numbers to be replaced vs gear you remember for life from earlier in wows life.

    There’s also very little to no agency over your character. No choices matter. There’s no rpg elements left in this mmo RPG. It has become an mmo ARPG with more in common with diablo 3 than wow vanilla or Everquest (it’s roots). The game was better when you had to beat A to get to B, B to C, etc. now, every patch makes everything step A with different difficulties that don’t really matter because, again, mythic raiding has been devalued to such an extreme by M+

    He is right. It’s the lack of rpg, the meaningless of gear, and how bad the gear ladder is now that has ran people away.

  16. #16
    The incentive to replay content is because you think playing the game is fun. If you do not think that doing the activity is enjoyable, it is silly to do it over and over again. Spend your free time doing something you actually enjoy.
    Felpooti - DH - Echo Isles
    Hack - Warrior - Echo Isles
    Pootie - Hunter - Echo Isles

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooti View Post
    The incentive to replay content is because you think playing the game is fun. If you do not think that doing the activity is enjoyable, it is silly to do it over and over again. Spend your free time doing something you actually enjoy.
    That doesn't work for Mythic guilds. They can't just pick up and go at patch drops. They have to maintain from patch to patch. If no one cares to keep playing, it's a major problem.

    It is worse than ever this expac. The gear treadmill is absolutely broken. People think "i've killed it heroic, i'm done here" and log til next patch because there is NO POINT other than pride and friendship, to suffer through MONTHS of Mythic only for the gear to be trivialized next patch. Or to see someone in normal/heroic decked out in wf/tf that rivals there's, despite 1/10th the effort.

    It's become a "Why bother?" moment this expac for mythic raiding, and even heroic raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    watched it this morning . typical whining that "mythic gear isnt special enough" with slight hints/questions whether casual players are ok with current gear model.

    answear is - yes they are because they can now say "screw you elitest a...holes" and just do casual content while being nicely rewarded for it.

    and this hurts people like Preach the most - that the whole concept of "players should aspire to be better" got shattered into milion pieces.
    That's why BFA is doing SO WELL right now, amirite?!

    It's why BFA is largely voted the worst expac on EVERY SINGLE POLL on the internet, right?

    It's why mythic raiding is dead this expac and can't be saved.

    You probably have never even cleared a mythic raid. I doubt even a heroic.

    Preach's opinion here has more value than 1000x opinions like yours. The game is dying, and it hurts us fans to see, and it's partly/mostly because of the gear treadmill being broken, no rpg mechanics left, and how WoW is basically WoW: Diablo 3 edition. It has more in common than D3 than vanilla WoW

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    That doesn't work for Mythic guilds. They can't just pick up and go at patch drops. They have to maintain from patch to patch. If no one cares to keep playing, it's a major problem.

    It is worse than ever this expac. The gear treadmill is absolutely broken. People think "i've killed it heroic, i'm done here" and log til next patch because there is NO POINT other than pride and friendship, to suffer through MONTHS of Mythic only for the gear to be trivialized next patch. Or to see someone in normal/heroic decked out in wf/tf that rivals there's, despite 1/10th the effort.

    It's become a "Why bother?" moment this expac for mythic raiding, and even heroic raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's why BFA is doing SO WELL right now, amirite?!

    It's why BFA is largely voted the worst expac on EVERY SINGLE POLL on the internet, right?

    It's why mythic raiding is dead this expac and can't be saved.

    You probably have never even cleared a mythic raid. I doubt even a heroic.

    Preach's opinion here has more value than 1000x opinions like yours. The game is dying, and it hurts us fans to see, and it's partly/mostly because of the gear treadmill being broken, no rpg mechanics left, and how WoW is basically WoW: Diablo 3 edition. It has more in common than D3 than vanilla WoW
    Then the incentive to keep playing is to maintain the guild from patch to patch. If you think that raiding is suffering, why on earth would it be how you spend you free time?
    Felpooti - DH - Echo Isles
    Hack - Warrior - Echo Isles
    Pootie - Hunter - Echo Isles

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Preach and other shitters like him simply make a score off unwashed massed with their "revelations" and these said masses swallow it all hook line and sinker.
    Actually the Youtubers provide solid viewpoints and perspectives of the game... their popularity is partially due to the numbe rof people who are looking to validate their own opinions.

    WoW isn't shit because Preach says so... WoW is shit because it is... and Preach simply shares that opinion... which draws in 363,000 subscribers who also think WoW is shit.

    There are plenty who do not agree with it and still play WoW... Doesn't make either "side" unintelligent... it just means some people have a very low expectation of an MMORPG these days.

  20. #20
    The issue about gearing mainly (from my view) comes from multiple difficulties.

    Don't get me wrong I love having multiple difficulties and I can choose one I like. The issue comes from people re-doing the content so much that they burn out on it and don't want to get the higher gear as they feel its not worth it.

    I am unsure what the solution is given that if you remove one tier of difficulty it affects a lot of people who enjoy said difficulty. If you remove Mythic the least amount are affected but you also kill the cutting edge guilds. Like Method who really put effort into their world first streams which like the M+ dungeon invitational is quite a success.

    If you remove heroic and normal you affect a load of pugs and casual guilds, while removing LFR also affects all the casuals who cba to step into the normal raid or above.

    I do know the first time I truly burned out on wow was during Trial of the crusader, having 4 different modes and being in a decent raiding guild we raided all of those modes.

    With all these modes you get multiples of the same items, and I get it when people say that the gear just doesnt interest them as much now. I mainly just take the ilevel or item upgrades and then transmog away. (that said the New DK set in Mythic looks amazing and I guess I will wait until later this expac or next one to farm the shit out of it).

    We currently have different recolours and set looks for the mythic modes, I think on top of that you could add in a few items that you can't get in the other modes. Try and give some extra incentive. Other than that I am unsure what they can do to address the issue other than removing other difficulties.

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