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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    So bad, it started your fifteen years of playing?

    Riiiiight.
    Back in the day we did not have any better. Vanilla was awesome because it was pitted against the likes of EQ or Lineage or Ragnarok or what not, which were basically "leveling the game".

    But objectively, Vanilla is a pretty bad game, it's just that in 2004 it was the best there is and it had bonus points for being Warcraft and having exceptional silky smooth character control.

    Let me rephrase this before Classic flaggelants will rush in with their pitchforks: Vanilla was amazing game in 2004, truly revolutionary, but compared to now? Boy, was it basic and broken as fuck.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2019-03-15 at 01:18 PM.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    No it is not about "victim-culture". Why do people thinks it is fine to throw insults or offensive remarks around and expects people to just laugh it off?

    It seems like basic courtesy is a thing of the past for some.
    I completely agree with ypu in general.

    But I dont see calling someone a bad player as an offensive insult.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    I've said it a few times, but the game struggles because there's no vision in its design.

    There's no attempt to build an experience for specific people, one that has depth and inspires those who enjoy it. The attempts are to mildly entertain as many as possible, no matter what they're doing, and hope that enough of them chuck money at the online services and items.

    And that's the question that matters:

    What do we want World of Warcraft to inspire?

    There should be an experience related vision, with three to four clearly related intentions, in order to create that vision. That's what we had prior to mid-Wrath when those guys moved on and got replaced, and it's the opposite of what we've had since. Nonsense like dungeons having five difficulties, and raids having four, tells you that they're not designed to inspire people who are into that content, they're designed to make sure everyone does them no matter what their interest is.

    And why?

    Because people who aren't interested in raids need deep content of another type. That used to be the ways quests worked, how dungeons were set up, or the way professions were designed. Now? All of those are dreadful because quests are the same and non-threatening, dungeons have been horrifically shortened, and professions have had their value utterly gutted. The design of all of that was lowered, so that difficulties could be expanded for content that most players don't actually like very much.

    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.

    That intention is now history.
    I love this post so much.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    it's not about content.. it's about keeping players playing for as long as possible. Titanforge & warforge fill that role perfectly for both casuals and hardcore raiders.
    Not really for mythic raiders. As preach also say, if you have 415 gear there is not really a need to go for warforged 425 gear (it cant even titanforge). We are going to replace it right away anyway.

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Back in the day we did not have any better. Vanilla was awesome because it was pitted against the likes of EQ or Lineage or Ragnarok or what not, which were basically "leveling the game".

    But objectively, Vanilla is a pretty bad game, it's just that in 2004 it was the best there is and it had bonus points for being Warcraft and having exceptional silky smooth character control.
    I've been playing video games, solidly, for just over 31 years. That's a significant amount to the overwhelming majority of posters here, but a bit less than a few who are a good chunk older.

    Neither me, nor any reasonable person, sticks with a game that's an 'endless monotonous grind'; this is because there has always been plenty of games to play, and games that you actually enjoy.

    As soon as someone tells me they played the entirety of Classic, but it was shit, is either utterly stupid, or simply lying.

    £30 for the game, and a tenner every month prior to The Burning Crusade, means a spunking of £260; and you spent it despite hating the game?

    Mhm.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    That's what M+ was supposed to be... except it really doesn't work like that with the current reward structure. Between Warfronts, World Bosses, LFR, (soon to be buffed) Incursions and random WQ Titanforges, low level M+ offer next to no rewards for them, while being significantly harder than any other content they did so far. In order to get upgrades, they need to do >7, which they are completely unprepared to do (without even getting into raider.io 'score').

    As it is now, they are catapulted straight through the gearing process at a crazy speed and then crash directly into a wall they cannot even begin to tackle, at all. There isn't any gradual increase in difficulty in effort, it's "oh, you're 360 now? Your WQ rewards will be 370, enjoy! Want something better? There's M+10 which will absolutely destroy you, have fun."

    I'm not naive enough to believe that people would "step up to the challenge" and "start raiding if only we removed all the easy modes", but there's just nothing there for them. Residue is supposed to be the incentive, but again - M+ and why would they bother if emissaries offer 385 easily, while anything better requires doing much harder instances and will be invalidated once the patch hits all the same. Used to be Reputation Vendors or Valor Points that offered concrete, tangible rewards after doing certain amount of effort. All useless nowadays.
    Right, they completely failed at adding those systems because they aren't even attempting to balance effort and reward anymore. Instead they divide the game into seasons, give you a full set of 385 items from doing world quests, and then wonder why people getting thrown straight at M+7 struggle to improve their characters. You're exactly right. Are world quests harder than M+7? Hell no, they're not even close, and the problem with giving the same reward is not just that M+ below level 7 becomes effectively a waste of time, it's also that M+7 is too hard if this is your first time doing real end-game content.

    It's a wall, exactly like you say. It's basically just a more convoluted version of the Cataclysm mistake.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    So bad, it started your fifteen years of playing?

    Riiiiight.
    the irony when you are citing a game that was 15 years ago ridiculed as being too casual and to easy by people playing lieraly any other mmorpg on market.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    I've been playing video games, solidly, for just over 31 years. That's a significant amount to the overwhelming majority of posters here, but a bit less than a few who are a good chunk older.

    Neither me, nor any reasonable person, sticks with a game that's an 'endless monotonous grind'; this is because there has always been plenty of games to play, and games that you actually enjoy.

    As soon as someone tells me they played the entirety of Classic, but it was shit, is either utterly stupid, or simply lying.

    £30 for the game, and a tenner every month prior to The Burning Crusade, means a spunking of £260; and you spent it despite hating the game?

    Mhm.
    I think I plainly explained my standpoint.

    Back in 2005 when I started playing Vanilla it was the best MMO out there by far because it was not yet another "level to cap the game" AND it was Warcraft, which instantly was a sale for me.

    Back then Vanilla WoW was legit stellar, but it does not hold a candle to anything we have nowadays including Battle for Azeroth. Yep I said it.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Right, they completely failed at adding those systems because they aren't even attempting to balance effort and reward anymore. Instead they divide the game into seasons, give you a full set of 385 items from doing world quests, and then wonder why people getting thrown straight at M+7 struggle to improve their characters. You're exactly right. Are world quests harder than M+7? Hell no, they're not even close, and the problem with giving the same reward is not just that M+ below level 7 becomes effectively a waste of time, it's also that M+7 is too hard if this is your first time doing real end-game content.

    It's a wall, exactly like you say. It's basically just a more convoluted version of the Cataclysm mistake.
    and ? are you suggesting that wow wasnt "divide into seasons" for past 15 year ?

    i guess we played completly different game for all those years then .

    because the only reason why most of people were doin old usless raids between vanilla and wolk was because of retarded attuenement systems. which got removed because nobody enjoyed this.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Back in the day we did not have any better. Vanilla was awesome because it was pitted against the likes of EQ or Lineage or Ragnarok or what not, which were basically "leveling the game".

    But objectively, Vanilla is a pretty bad game, it's just that in 2004 it was the best there is and it had bonus points for being Warcraft and having exceptional silky smooth character control.

    Let me rephrase this before Classic flaggelants will rush in with their pitchforks: Vanilla was amazing game in 2004, truly revolutionary, but compared to now? Boy, was it basic and broken as fuck.
    Dude are you serious right now?

    Gaming around the turn of the century was absolutely incredible. The RPG's that came out were astonishingly good. Sure, there weren't a lot of good MMORPG's among them, but there were certanly equivalents to what we have today. Some of these games were even made by the same bloody people!

    The nearest competitor to WoW is still Final Fantasy (then it was 11, now it's 14, I believe?), and literally the same guy that made Dark Age of Camelot also made The Elder Scrolls Online. Whereas then there was Everquest, today there is Neverwinter. How direct and obvious does it have to be?

    In terms of other games, we had big shooters out then as well. Call of Duty was blowing up around the same time, and instead of games like Apex Legends and Battlefield and things like that we had games like... well freakin' Battlefield 1942! The makers of Fortnite made Unreal Tournament!

    RPG's were coming out as well. Whereas today there are games like Divinity: Original Sin, back then there was Planescape: Torment or Neverwinter Nights and things like that.

    Very, very little has changed except WoW is a weaker game than it was. It's time to face reality already.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I think I plainly explained my standpoint.

    Back in 2005 when I started playing Vanilla it was the best MMO out there by far because it was not yet another "level to cap the game" AND it was Warcraft, which instantly was a sale for me.

    Back then Vanilla WoW was legit stellar, but it does not hold a candle to anything we have nowadays including Battle for Azeroth. Yep I said it.
    Can you share what you’re smoking when you say bfa is a better game than vanilla? BFA will be remembered as the worst expac in wow history. Wow classic has a place amongst the greatest games ever made.

    Classic wow still appeals to a large segment of wows population more than bfa. Most of us remember the bad with the good and I’m more than willing to suffer leveling a prot warrior in classic slowly and painfully before I’ll spend another day in bfa

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and ? are you suggesting that wow wasnt "divide into seasons" for past 15 year ?

    i guess we played completly different game for all those years then .

    because the only reason why most of people were doin old usless raids between vanilla and wolk was because of retarded attuenement systems. which got removed because nobody enjoyed this.
    Yes I am. WoW classic didn't have seasons at all, nor did WoW in general until well into Cataclysm, and it was never as obvious as it is today. In the early days of WoW Blizzard just unleashed content when people were just about done with the current content, and they only expected people who had completed the current content to go into all the new content. Some content was made for a broader audience though, but it seemed to basically come out at random.

    Blizzard have admitted this multiple times, and even today the Classic team can't quite figure out how to put the original release cadence into seasons, try as they might. They just gave up and batched things into 6 patches.
    Last edited by Ishayu; 2019-03-15 at 01:38 PM.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    Dude are you serious right now?

    Gaming around the turn of the century was absolutely incredible. The RPG's that came out were astonishingly good. Sure, there weren't a lot of good MMORPG's among them, but there were certanly equivalents to what we have today. Some of these games were even made by the same bloody people!

    The nearest competitor to WoW is still Final Fantasy (then it was 11, now it's 14, I believe?), and literally the same guy that made Dark Age of Camelot also made The Elder Scrolls Online. Whereas then there was Everquest, today there is Neverwinter. How direct and obvious does it have to be?

    In terms of other games, we had big shooters out then as well. Call of Duty was blowing up around the same time, and instead of games like Apex Legends and Battlefield and things like that we had games like... well freakin' Battlefield 1942! The makers of Fortnite made Unreal Tournament!

    RPG's were coming out as well. Whereas today there are games like Divinity: Original Sin, back then there was Planescape: Torment or Neverwinter Nights and things like that.

    Very, very little has changed except WoW is a weaker game than it was. It's time to face reality already.
    Your supposedly amazing games crumbled to dust because they were a decrepit shit with ancient gameplay and backwards goals.

    WoW destroyed them all exactly because it put forward a casual game that had sensible goals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Can you share what you’re smoking when you say bfa is a better game than vanilla? BFA will be remembered as the worst expac in wow history. Wow classic has a place amongst the greatest games ever made.

    Classic wow still appeals to a large segment of wows population more than bfa. Most of us remember the bad with the good and I’m more than willing to suffer leveling a prot warrior in classic slowly and painfully before I’ll spend another day in bfa
    Every current expansion "will be remembered as the worst expansion in wow history"

    You don't impress me with this hyperbole, I hear it for good 12 years now since TBC. Literally same shit every time only to hear how it was "best expansion evah" 2 expansions afterwards.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Not really for mythic raiders. As preach also say, if you have 415 gear there is not really a need to go for warforged 425 gear (it cant even titanforge). We are going to replace it right away anyway.
    you can say that about yourself. But I raid mythic and I got my full mythic gear 415. why do u think i still play? because there is always a chance for titanforged

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    no it's not. hardcore players will most likely have more TF than casual players. you are doing an extreme case of a very very lucky casual.
    If you only clear heroic and do a 10+ key each week, then you are a casual. However you can find a lot of those casual with 410+ gear which is ridiculous.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I certainly believe that wow today is appeal much more to casuals than back in the day. since they are the biggest portion of the population. it would be wise to actually make gear much more accessible while having the titanforged system to keep hardcore players busy.

    Seems like a good system to me.
    I’d rather get a system like old conquest currency : grind to get all gear can take almost a full season but it gets faster if you’re good as rating increases your weekly cap

    There’s no reason to bake in RNG; a currency with higher costs for high item levels but higher income as you’re better in the game, balanced in a way that there’s always to something to work for if you don’t get it through the regular ways like m+/raiding/arenas/rbgs. No such amount of RNG should have made it to the game. With a bit of polish valor was fine, especially in mop where you could improve your items and you couldn’t get set items from it

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    you can say that about yourself. But I raid mythic and I got my full mythic gear 415. why do u think i still play? because there is always a chance for titanforged
    But shouldnt we find solutions which includes as many players as possible?

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Your supposedly amazing games crumbled to dust because they were a decrepit shit with ancient gameplay and backwards goals.

    WoW destroyed them all exactly because it put forward a casual game that had sensible goals.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Every current expansion "will be remembered as the worst expansion in wow history"

    You don't impress me with this hyperbole, I hear it for good 12 years now since TBC. Literally same shit every time only to hear how it was "best expansion evah" 2 expansions afterwards.
    Never had there been a wow expac as bad or divisive as bfa. If you wanna live in denial and think bfa is better than classic or every other iteration of wow go ahead; but the vast majority of woe players walked away from bfa more than any other expac.

    Go ahead and look at the road ahead from previous expacs and current on YouTube and spend time to read comments. Other expacs had much more love than bfa. Bfa is the worst and it isn’t debatable by any reasonable gamer

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Your supposedly amazing games crumbled to dust because they were a decrepit shit with ancient gameplay and backwards goals.

    WoW destroyed them all exactly because it put forward a casual game that had sensible goals.
    Lmfao.

    Yeah, everybody completely forgot about Battlefield, Call of Duty, Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft the RTS series, DotA, Counter-Strike, 4-party RPG games, Half-Life, etc. etc.

    Also, GoG doesn't exist, Valve doesn't exist, Bioware doesn't exist, and everybody in the entire world loves WoW compared to every other game, which of course perfectly explains why WoW is now a tiny fraction of the total gaming market. /s

    The only decrepit shit around here is what you're spewing. It's actually difficult to imagine how to put more incorrect statements into a post than you just managed. You're basically on the same level as flat-earthers.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But shouldnt we find solutions which includes as many players as possible?
    why a solution? TF & WF helps casual & hardcore players motivated to replay content. it seems to be doing a fine job. Otherwise blizzard would have removed it a long time ago.

    If we assume that gear is less accessible, then the very same people whining gear is easy to get will whine that blizzard is timegating their content in terms of loot.

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