Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[Maudib]

That's pretty much spoiled statistics there and you know it. These things are like a Church, most people sitting in it agree with preacher and those who don't either shut up or do not even come there.

Even when presented with real, verifiable data, you dismiss it. It' you that doesn't want to have a discussion.. but simply want to "Preach" your beliefs. See what I did there? ")

[Qnubi]

Exactly. This guy is talking rubbish about micro transactions.

Who's gonna buy $120 of MTX just to get gear or boosts when it becomes irrelevant in 2 months?

The same people that bet on eSports, or buy excessive amounts of "gems" in f2p games, they are called whales and gamblers. They have no longterm "efficiency" for their investment, just the quick adrenaline rush when gambling or buying something and have instant satisfaction. Blizz can feast on whales with their system, previously an audience they couldn't access really.

[Big Thanks]

I didn't post in this thread because i dont see the gearing system as a problem...at all.
Therefore i didnt see a reason to post here.

Once someone gets the gear they want they either stop playing or decide to "flex" in random groups on damage meters.
Obtaining gear was since classic a reason to flex your power to others.

Gear scaling is a thing now in PvP so you can no longer flex there.
Thats the only difference

I dont see the problem...

Even if gearing was more fun...in the end it wouldnt fix any major thing in the game.

Same thing for titanforging.
People talk about that a lot.
Who cares?
Removing titanforging would NOT acomplish anything relevant to the game.

I just dont see the point in this discussions.

[infinitemeridian]

I didn't post in this thread because i dont see the gearing system as a problem...at all.
Therefore i didnt see a reason to post here.

Once someone gets the gear they want they either stop playing or decide to "flex" in random groups on damage meters.
Obtaining gear was since classic a reason to flex your power to others.

Gear scaling is a thing now in PvP so you can no longer flex there.
Thats the only difference

I dont see the problem...

Even if gearing was more fun...in the end it wouldnt fix any major thing in the game.

Same thing for titanforging.
People talk about that a lot.
Who cares?
Removing titanforging would NOT acomplish anything relevant to the game.

I just dont see the point in this discussions.

People think the problems with the game stem from RNG and gear. That is only the icing on the cake - the problem is a lack of engaging content. Blizz needs to focus on introducing fun systems outside of just raiding, then focus on the rewards. Too many people on this forum think the game would be "fixed" if titanforging was removed and class design was reverted to MoP, but the problems go much deeper.

[Echocho]

I didn't post in this thread because i dont see the gearing system as a problem...at all.
Therefore i didnt see a reason to post here.

Is that why you posted roughly ten times in this thread during the week it's been active?

[Big Thanks]

Is that why you posted roughly ten times in this thread during the week it's been active?

Really?!?!? I did? What did i say?

edit: nevermind, i searched it myself. I only posted nonsense and Classic stuff

[Deianeira]

Legion is the 3rd-4th most beloved expansion behind WOTLK and TBC. It is held in high regards, especially with mythic raiders and high end gamers. MoP has also aged well because most people feel their particular class played the best during that expac (not for me, but i get the argument)

WoD was generally considered the worst, by far, until BFA. BFA has taken that crown and ran so far ahead with it, WoD can't ever catch it.

Even the most positive youtubers like Bellular, who if you cut him his blood will literally spell out blizzard on the floor, has been honest that BFA is pretty FUBAR.

- - - Updated - - -



vanilla was 10000x the game BFA is. Classes played better. we had agency. Gear MEANT something. the world felt big and alive. social bonds were real and not just LFR. And, most of all, it was an mmo RPG.

There's no RPG mechanics left in WoW. if there are, where are they?! Vanilla WoW was inspired by Everquest. Current WoW has more in common with Diablo 3. BFA is an ARPG at this point.

What the actual fuck. you cannot be serious. Yes i know it was "EPIC" back in the day but not becuase the game played so well but because everything was so new and shiny. You say it played better. Yeah right look at the people that is on the Classic forums if you come in in the BiS thread for Classic and ask, "where is the BiS list for Boomies or Ret?" You will be laughed out of there, with the comment. "Those classes plays healer/buffbot" Also the BiS for holy Pally is filled with clothpieces wich feels so wrong in so many ways and totally removes the immersion and feel for the class. I have no doubt Classic will be popular but lets be real it wont be the massive success some people think it will be.

Also i read Forums every now and then and sure there are alot of complaints but it is jsut the way it always has been. People that are satisfied dont write on forums, they generally play the game.

[ToxicFlame]

That is completely fine, you can get the necessary raider.io to do M+10 reasonably by doing a bit less than that M+, groups for which are much less picky. Same with Heroic, eventually you will find your way through, which is the whole point of progression.
You need to build some clout and I find it to be fine really.

we're talking about gear though and how that extra "clout" is there because gear is worthless.

Gear being obsoleted by new raid tier is a thing from late TBC, so again I am not sure how you and some others suddenly make such a big issue out of it. Same with TF boogeyman, which really REALLY is not a thing in BfA to any sort of significant extent.

never within a week, that's a flat out lie, it would usually take at least a month or two.

Heck, Legion which is now hailed as one of the best WoW expansions had all that, why is it suddenly such an issue in BfA? I think the problem is elsewhere because what you said was WoW for more than 10 years and TF is really not a factor.

it definitely started way before legion and was definitely a thing a problem in legion, which has been amplified in bfa with the addition of warfronts

[Revamp Man]

Your assumption here is that WoW is getting new players... What we have now is a more likely a consequence of WoW not getting new players.

At least my Sunwell clear achievement is on the 3.0 pre patch date... So try again?

Let's assume that wow isn't getting new players and it's all just current players

My mage represents Jimmy who let's say has played BfA since launch

Does anything change?
The systems remain broken
I still have no reason to do anything outside of daily emissary and invasion

The world bosses outside of darkshore are dead gear wise
I can get better gear from a world quest than the last raid tier

The only reason to repeat content is RNG
I have to do content I don't enjoy to stay caught up

[Echocho]

never within a week, that's a flat out lie, it would usually take at least a month or two.

More importantly you had to do an activity similar to what you were currently doing in order to replace your gear, like replacing your raid gear with gear from the new raid. In BfA the most trivial content in the game gave you mythic Uldir quality gear OR BETTER.

[Raysz]

Doesn't this apply to, I don't know, pretty much everyone who has written a single comment in this thread? That would mean you would hate every single person in this thread, and probably a lot more people who have yet to comment. Or no, I guess your hatred actually stems from him NOT being just one voice in the crowd on a fanboy forum that you can just ignore. It's because he puts a lot of effort into making his voice heard and because people willingly give their money to support it that you dislike him.

He puts a lot of effort into making his voice heard yes, doesn't make it a good voice though. And yeah, I have an opinion, and so does everybody else. My main issue with Preach is that he seems to think that his opinion carries more weight, and he's just very negative in general. He lacks nuance and goes for hyperboles because he knows it will get him more views. I hate people who are like that.

[Kaesebrezen]

More importantly you had to do an activity similar to what you were currently doing in order to replace your gear, like replacing your raid gear with gear from the new raid. In BfA the most trivial content in the game gave you mythic Uldir quality gear OR BETTER.

Normal of a new raid tier has to reward higher itemlvl then heroic of the previous tier.

Any guild that raids normal will sooner or later clear it, and even if they don't clear heroic, will progress a decent junk through it. As there's generally a piece for most slots on the early bosses (you need variety in loot, as in more then one option per slot), they'll get heroic itemlvl by the end of a raid tier - even if you remove all of the other heroic itemlvl sources (i.e. m+ or worldbosses).

The casual raid of my guild is now at ~403 average itemlvl 12 weeks in. They very rarely do their weekly mythic+, and they spent a lot of time on normal, they killed 6 heroic bosses by now. Yet they're still on 403 itemlvl - with mostly a single source of gear (= raids) - and we're half way through the raid tier duration.

If you look back to WoD - you had normal hellfire (at the early bosses) award 690, while foundry heroic was 685. That was also the case for MoP (normal SoO was +5 itemlvl from heroic ToT), and also the case for Cataclysm. (it wasn't in WotLk as 10/25 was different then)

There's only a 10 itemlvl room to move down from the current system, as normal of a new tier always has to be higher then heroic of the previous tier. It's been that way since the probably the creation of normal (but we look

Frequency at which you get gear is a totally different topic, yet it's equally difficult, especially with Mythic+.

Mythic+ is it's own progression path. It is also it's own competition. You can't have mythic raiders with their superior itemlvl dominate mythic+ rankings. That's not a competition. To keep the mythic+ competition as a competition, mythic+ has to award an equal itemlvl to mythic+ at an appropriate level of difficulty (you can argue that this is currently not the case) in an appropriate amount of time. The randomness and frequency of the weekly chest hardly fits that requirement, the randomness and titanforging of doing many, many runs, will eventually reach it.

-- but at the end of the day... i fail to see how the system is suddenly so broken in BfA when it existed since forever.

[Alkizon]

-- but at the end of the day... i fail to see how the system is suddenly so broken in BfA when it existed since forever.

Technically, you're wrong, because... well, you know... dif.modes? What naturally affects speed/way of content consumption and progress (by the way, they were almost the same things before, but now probably aren't )

[Echocho]

Frequency at which you get gear is a totally different topic, yet it's equally difficult, especially with Mythic+.

That's where my suggestion from the original comes out. There is a way to put m+ on roughly the same gear acquisition as raids by using upgrade tokens.

* At the end of the week you get a number of upgrade tokens based on your highest completed key. These could be of varying quality with some normal, some heroic and maybe one mythic on occasion.
* M+ always drop the same iLvl loot regardless of your key, it could be the same as heroic dungeons or whatever, it doesn't really matter.
* You keep the pieces you are interested in for the duration of the week or in a GUI or something if bag space is precious.

[Xath]

Normal of a new raid tier has to reward higher itemlvl then heroic of the previous tier.

Any guild that raids normal will sooner or later clear it, and even if they don't clear heroic, will progress a decent junk through it. As there's generally a piece for most slots on the early bosses (you need variety in loot, as in more then one option per slot), they'll get heroic itemlvl by the end of a raid tier - even if you remove all of the other heroic itemlvl sources (i.e. m+ or worldbosses).

The casual raid of my guild is now at ~403 average itemlvl 12 weeks in. They very rarely do their weekly mythic+, and they spent a lot of time on normal, they killed 6 heroic bosses by now. Yet they're still on 403 itemlvl - with mostly a single source of gear (= raids) - and we're half way through the raid tier duration.

If you look back to WoD - you had normal hellfire (at the early bosses) award 690, while foundry heroic was 685. That was also the case for MoP (normal SoO was +5 itemlvl from heroic ToT), and also the case for Cataclysm. (it wasn't in WotLk as 10/25 was different then)

There's only a 10 itemlvl room to move down from the current system, as normal of a new tier always has to be higher then heroic of the previous tier. It's been that way since the probably the creation of normal (but we look

Frequency at which you get gear is a totally different topic, yet it's equally difficult, especially with Mythic+.

Mythic+ is it's own progression path. It is also it's own competition. You can't have mythic raiders with their superior itemlvl dominate mythic+ rankings. That's not a competition. To keep the mythic+ competition as a competition, mythic+ has to award an equal itemlvl to mythic+ at an appropriate level of difficulty (you can argue that this is currently not the case) in an appropriate amount of time. The randomness and frequency of the weekly chest hardly fits that requirement, the randomness and titanforging of doing many, many runs, will eventually reach it.

-- but at the end of the day... i fail to see how the system is suddenly so broken in BfA when it existed since forever.

It's been broke since legion actually but it takes time for burnout from having to farm everything to take effect.

[kamuimac]

Technically, you're wrong, because... well, you know... dif.modes? What naturally affects speed/way of content consumption and progress (by the way, it was almost the same things before, but now probably aren't )

you argument is flawed in the point that it speeds the way of consumption.

i disagree strongly - it doesnt speed it up it allows it to be consumed in the first place.

because intoduction of normal/flex all those people were not doin raiding at all .

they dont consume content faster - only at their own slow pace.

[Alkizon]

you argument is flawed in the point that it speeds the way of consumption.

i disagree strongly - it doesnt speed it up it allows it to be consumed in the first place.

because intoduction of normal/flex all those people were not doin raiding at all .

they dont consume content faster - only at their own slow pace.

We (exactly with you) have already argued on this topic and didn't come to a clear agreement: I cited all possible arguments, and you simply continued to deny them without refuting. I see no point in continuing this process anymore, just a lot of wasted time. Think what you like, but you're wrong (I'll do it same way as you = didn't see your desire to communicate, only need for attention, with now being the same situation).

ps. Start for example from explaining concepts of "content" and "progress" in your head (I did this, see links above (where also other proofs you requested are actually located), but you didn't).

you dont want to argue because you have 0 arguments . only flawed vision that every players dream is to wipe countless times on all bosses.

its been proven multiple times by blizzard themselves that people will not raise to chalenge - that why they put both lfr and flex into game

to counter vision of people like you .

but be my guess - keep whining that your way is correct - and blizzard will keep doing something completly opposite - because you are simply wrong.

Say this more often to yourself, since self-complacence system is mostly proven working one. I can only welcome this, good luck Opposite action, probably, will be even mannerless in this particular hopeless case.

[kamuimac]

We (exactly with you) have already argued on this topic and didn't come to a clear agreement: I cited all possible arguments, and you simply continued to deny them without refuting. I see no point in continuing this process. Think what you like, but you're wrong (I'll do it same way as you ).

ps. Start for example from explaining concepts of "content" and "progress" in your head (I did this, see links above, but you didn't).

you dont want to argue because you have 0 arguments . only flawed vision that every players dream is to wipe countless times on all bosses.

its been proven multiple times by blizzard themselves that people will not raise to chalenge - that why they put both lfr and flex into game

to counter vision of people like you .

but be my guess - keep whining that your way is correct - and blizzard will keep doing something completly opposite - because you are simply wrong.

[ToxicFlame]

More importantly you had to do an activity similar to what you were currently doing in order to replace your gear, like replacing your raid gear with gear from the new raid. In BfA the most trivial content in the game gave you mythic Uldir quality gear OR BETTER.

well yeah, it takes so little time exclusively due to the new sources of gear that popped up in legion and WF/TF. the amount of loot from raid bosses hasn't increased since wotlk to my knowledge

[Echocho]

well yeah, it takes so little time exclusively due to the new sources of gear that popped up in legion and WF/TF. the amount of loot from raid bosses hasn't increased since wotlk to my knowledge

It has increased massively. Try going into HFC with legacy loot on and you'll see what I mean. It's like 1 piece of loot per 2 people or something ridiculous like that.