Preach on the broken gear treadmill

[Big Thanks]

It very well might? Assuming there's a tangible goal in gear progression that's both meaningful and achieveable in reasonable amount of time. Currently, this doesn't really happen. Titanforging and random sockets destroyed any concept of BiS list or targetting specific items, since you'll just use whatever procs the highest. There are no guaranteed, concrete rewards outside of Azerite vendor... and even then, the "concrete" part is absurdly expensive, to the point that you might as well save that residue for the next raid tier. Emissary rewards are a lottery. World quests are a lottery. Lucky proc can end gearing up in minutes instead of making it an iterative process. M+ only offer good rewards after +7 and that's generally only done by reasonably "hardcore" players. Any other type of dungeons is largely useless.

Sure, people who didn't care about gear early on still wouldn't give a damn about any new system. But if you could invest a set amount of time and get a set amount of rewards? Who knows. There'd be a reason to grind some reputation, collect some Warfront currency and so on. Of course it would slow down the gearing, but maybe that's the issue here and "be done quickly, wait for next patch" isn't working. We don't really know.

For all the claims that "the casuals really benefit from this system and they love it", there isn't really any proof, just random guesses. Preach claims "casuals" contact him and say the opposite. I assume he isn't lying - maybe it's a tiny minority, maybe it's part of a larger trend, only Blizzard knows... or, well, they *should* know, because their decisions (even outside of gearing process) are baffling regardless of whatever data they have.

But you dont give any reasons for players to stay subscribed after getting said gear.
Gearing doesnt open up a new world to explore. The game just ends.
I ask you again, "why make gearing fun if it wont make people subscribed longer?"
LOL the only thing can make people stay subscribed longer in "gearing" is if you make it harder.

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Do you ever automatically quit a game when you get the most powerful stuff or finally complete something you have worked for? I for one am now free to go do other things. Some people like to do other things: old titles or mounts to farm, work on gearing up an alt, pvp, any other number of things you could go do in game. What you see as rewarding or not doesn't mean someone else doesn't. I swear everyone assumes their own opinions as fact on this forum. Not to mention most people have no idea what an MMO even is these days. WoW is not the standard for how an MMO should be made/played.

Ah, so the "other things" are making people play the game.
Not "gearing".

Exactly my point.

[crono14]

Ah, so the "other things" are making people play the game.
Not "gearing".

Exactly my point.

I mean I never played for gear and I have been around since Vanilla. Gear comes naturally from doing content. Sure some people might play solely for gear, but those people might need that gear to also be able to compete on leaderboards, for pvp, or anything else they might want to accomplish in the game. Gear is a tool to help you accomplish your goals/rewards whatever they might be. It's why achievements exist, guilds who like to try and speed run things, maybe run different comps/alts. Solo people can also play alts, do whatever the heck they want. Having a bar that no one can ever reach might frustrate some people who like to feel a sense of completion. You can't say anyone is right or wrong in this aspect.

[Sansnom]

The game grew just fine and maintained when it was an actual RPG game and not seasonal garbage. Your opinion is yours, and I have mine. They are killing their own game in the long run with this mentality.

You are making an assumption on how the game grew. It was growing no doubt but we know nothing else about the players and what they were doing in the game.

As you have your opinion. I have mine. My opinion is that WoW was never an RPG despite the tag. Everything is on rails. That in my view makes it an AA. Action Adventure. No different to Diablo.

I could care less about gear, so it's nice you to assume why myself and others play the game. The amount of time, gold, & materials in-game to progress in mythic just isn't worth the time anymore.

Apparent you do because I was replying to it. See below.

Who cares how long catch-up has been around? I am well aware how long it's been around. You are just deflecting the point I made with another meaningless point. It doesn't change the fact there is no reason to log in to progress your character when I can catch up in AP and gear in the next patch.

[crono14]

You are making an assumption on how the game grew. It was growing no doubt but we know nothing else about the players and what they were doing in the game.

As you have your opinion. I have mine. My opinion is that WoW was never an RPG despite the tag. Everything is on rails. That in my view makes it an AA. Action Adventure. No different to Diablo.




Apparent you do because I was replying to it. See below.

I mean are you trying to argue just to argue? A game grew in numbers and popularity for any other reason than it being a good RPG game. So obviously it must have been a good game that attracted fans of the genre and broke down the wall between people that never played MMO's previously for whatever reason they had to not play them. We do know what everyone else who didn't raid was doing. They were exploring the world, pvp'ing, doing dungeons for the experience and gear themselves outside of raids to progress their character, and really doing whatever they wanted. We didn't have achievements, side stuff to do, world quests, or anything like that. It was a new journey and adventure everyone was on. So obviously everyone had plenty to do.

Your opinion of an RPG must be pretty messed up then.

A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

So assume role of character in fictional setting - Check
Acting out your role within a narrative(there were many narratives in Vanilla and each expansion) - Check
Acting out role in process of structured decision-making regarding character development(talent tree and gear choices for example) - Check
Actions taken within games may succeed or fail according to rules and guidelines - Check
Many other reasons I can think of would all be checks as well.

So your opinion of what an RPG is what? The combat might be somewhat of action adventure, but it still is most certainly an RPG.

[rohoz]

I mean are you trying to argue just to argue? A game grew in numbers and popularity for any other reason than it being a good RPG game. So obviously it must have been a good game that attracted fans of the genre and broke down the wall between people that never played MMO's previously for whatever reason they had to not play them. We do know what everyone else who didn't raid was doing. They were exploring the world, pvp'ing, doing dungeons for the experience and gear themselves outside of raids to progress their character, and really doing whatever they wanted. We didn't have achievements, side stuff to do, world quests, or anything like that. It was a new journey and adventure everyone was on. So obviously everyone had plenty to do.

Your opinion of an RPG must be pretty messed up then.



So assume role of character in fictional setting - Check
Acting out your role within a narrative(there were many narratives in Vanilla and each expansion) - Check
Acting out role in process of structured decision-making regarding character development(talent tree and gear choices for example) - Check
Actions taken within games may succeed or fail according to rules and guidelines - Check
Many other reasons I can think of would all be checks as well.

So your opinion of what an RPG is what? The combat might be somewhat of action adventure, but it still is most certainly an RPG.

"WoW is not an RPG" is buzzword salad.
RPG since the 80's to this day have been presented in a myriad different ways. Latching on to "hurr i cant buy ammo" is stupid as fuck because in wow you had stats allocated to you instead of you allocating it yourself, so you could cry that wow was never an RPG.

You could also argue, using that same evidence that the final fantasy series isn't an rpg. Which we all know isn't true.

It's a bad attempt to obfuscate.

[Daffan]

But you dont give any reasons for players to stay subscribed after getting said gear.

If you make gearing hard and therefore take more time, people stay subbed longer because they won't be getting "said gear" instantly. Then once you had said gear, you'd use it to springboard to do other things faster or at all

[rohoz]

If you make gearing hard and therefore take more time, people stay subbed longer because they won't be getting "said gear" instantly. Then once you had said gear, you'd use it to springboard to do other things faster or at all

False, the game was the "most popular" when there were handouts galore.

[Angrie]

False, the game was the "most popular" when there were handouts galore.

I beg to differ. The longest my sub, and to a lesser extent, had people to play with, lasted without interruptions was in Vanilla, with the GM/HW grind. Arguably the most difficult time to get gear.

After that, BC. Again, slow gearing.

If Blizzard made "epics" - "EPIC!!!!" again, the gear rewards would feel better. I was out of blues in BFA by week 2.

[Big Thanks]

If you make gearing hard and therefore take more time, people stay subbed longer because they won't be getting "said gear" instantly. Then once you had said gear, you'd use it to springboard to do other things faster or at all

Blizzard can make the gearing take more time...but in the end you will still do nothing with said gear.

[RoKPaNda]

As per the Q&A it's not going anywhere, which shouldn't be a surprise to ANYONE because the current way of doing things is more fun for the normal people that play this game. Catering to those of us that raid Mythic makes literally zero sense. Ever.

[rohoz]

I beg to differ. The longest my sub, and to a lesser extent, had people to play with, lasted without interruptions was in Vanilla, with the GM/HW grind. Arguably the most difficult time to get gear.

After that, BC. Again, slow gearing.

If Blizzard made "epics" - "EPIC!!!!" again, the gear rewards would feel better. I was out of blues in BFA by week 2.

anecdotal evidence is no evidence

subgraph.jpg, game had the highest running sub count during wotlk when gear was the easiest to get.

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As per the Q&A it's not going anywhere, which shouldn't be a surprise to ANYONE because the current way of doing things is more fun for the normal people that play this game. Catering to those of us that raid Mythic makes literally zero sense. Ever.

While I agree with you, the casuals always seek to emulate what the top players do, sooooo

[Daffan]

False, the game was the "most popular" when there were handouts galore.

You mean it started cratering when handouts galore started? (TOC/ICC into CATA era).

Blizzard can make the gearing take more time...but in the end you will still do nothing with said gear.

People get enjoyment out of gaining power, especially when they subjectively feel it means something.

[Echocho]

People get enjoyment out of gaining power, especially when they subjectively feel it means something.

Which currently it doesn't. You gain essentially noting in the outside world or in PvP with gear, only in the same dungeons and raids you're already doing if you opt in to increasing the difficulty.

[Eggroll]

Yeah, and Ion just gave Preach "the finger"... He basically said that the critizism towards the broken gearing treadmill is invalid and they are going to completely ignore it because it's "the team's opinion"..

Rofl...

[RoKPaNda]

While I agree with you, the casuals always seek to emulate what the top players do, sooooo

They do tend to, but things that are good for the top players / fun for the top players are usually anything but fun / good for casual players. Things like WF/TF *can* be (but shouldn't be.) an annoyance for those of us that raid Mythic, but they're damn fun for the casuals. So any sort of "fix" to our perceived issue shouldn't take anything away from the casuals. A lot of people don't seem to grasp that.

You mean it started cratering when handouts galore started? (TOC/ICC into CATA era).

Are we pretending that's WHY the game declined and not because the number of new people coming in started being smaller than old people going out. There is this pervasive myth that players never quit in Vanilla/BC. They did, in large numbers, but the number of new players coming in was always as high or higher. It's not a coincidence that the TV ads and such (Night Elf mohawk) started happening just before the decline did, Blizzard knew that the number of new players incoming was shrinking.

Yeah, and Ion just gave Preach "the finger"... He basically said that the critizism towards the broken gearing treadmill is invalid and they are going to completely ignore it because it's "the team's opinion"..

Rofl...

He SHOULD give people like Preach "The finger." - Preach's opinion means nothing because it represents such a very small portion of the playerbase. His opinion is completely and totally meaningless when it comes to how the game is played for anyone outside of his niche. The team's opinion, as you put it, is worth a lot more than Preach's opinion, because they have actual feedback and data outside of some guy on Youtube ranting and raving. Not to mention Preach's extremely (intentionally) flawed Nighthold graphs cost him some credibility. Preach is one of those players that wants to shape the entire loot system in the entire game around something that would personally benefit him and those like him and take things away from literally everyone else.

[rohoz]

You mean it started cratering when handouts galore started? (TOC/ICC into CATA era).



People get enjoyment out of gaining power, especially when they subjectively feel it means something.

You were able to buy tier from the vendor from launch of wotlk

[Haywire5714]

its not an assumption that wow is not getting any new players... I don't think kids nowadays want to play a game like wow. Its not fast paced enough, the new generations have a completely different idea of what fun is.

Blizzard is trying their hardest to cater for returning players by having everything being so easy in the game but its just not working.

Literally BFA is the only expansion where I got plenty of time in my hands due to business going well on autopilot and can't play cause there is nothing for me there.
At this point even WoD seemed like a much better game than what we currently have.

You might have been able to argue what kids do or don't like if WoW's existing long term fan base actually enjoyed the game a lot but the subs kept declining. However it's very clear that the long term fan base has become more and more unhappy with what Blizzard has produced over the years. So if the committed long term fan base, who really wants to love this game doesn't actually like it ... then why would the newer generation of gamers want to try it?

I believe that if WoW was in good shape with it's long term fan base then new players (kids) would at least be willing to give it a shot.

[Powerogue]

My fundamental problem is the lack of things that actually require gear to do.

I mean we have the brawler's guild now, and I tried doing it and that questline but it has several stupid design choices like how I can't fight the group brawls more than once every 3 hours...and I need to beat 3 of them. Utterly stupid, and deterred what otherwise would have gotten me to gear, instead I guess I'll wait till the end of the expansion when it's easier.

I can't even access the reward vendor for the things I DID unlock until the questline is done, which is ludicrous. Whoever came up with this questline should be fired. It's literally worse than if the questline didn't exist at all.

[rohoz]

My fundamental problem is the lack of things that actually require gear to do.

I mean we have the brawler's guild now, and I tried doing it and that questline but it has several stupid design choices like how I can't fight the group brawls more than once every 3 hours...and I need to beat 3 of them. Utterly stupid, and deterred what otherwise would have gotten me to gear, instead I guess I'll wait till the end of the expansion when it's easier.

I can't even access the reward vendor for the things I DID unlock until the questline is done, which is ludicrous. Whoever came up with this questline should be fired. It's literally worse than if the questline didn't exist at all.

tf do you mean? like the second you start the quest there's another npc to sell rewards

[Sansnom]

Your opinion of an RPG must be pretty messed up then.

I don't think so.

So assume role of character in fictional setting - Check
Acting out your role within a narrative(there were many narratives in Vanilla and each expansion) - Check
Acting out role in process of structured decision-making regarding character development(talent tree and gear choices for example) - Check
Actions taken within games may succeed or fail according to rules and guidelines - Check
Many other reasons I can think of would all be checks as well.

Which according to your earlier post, was partly a reason why WoW grew. The items you listed still exist. Some in different forms. So why is it not an RPG now?

So your opinion of what an RPG is what? The combat might be somewhat of action adventure, but it still is most certainly an RPG.

People are exploring the world. That is an adventure. Not RPG.

Play PnP. Play Baldurs Gate. Play Planescape. Even SW-TOR had more RP element by letting players choose an option at the end of a quest.