1. #1
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    LionAir Plane Almost Crashed the Day Before, and FBI joins Criminal Probe into Boeing

    Lion air's airplane literally malfunctioned the day prior and if not for the off duty pilot likely would have crashed:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/20/lion...sh-report.html

    One day before the deadly crash of a Lion Air plane on Oct. 29 last year, pilots flying that Boeing 737 Max 8 lost control of the aircraft — but they were saved by an off-duty colleague riding in the cockpit, Bloomberg reported on Wednesday.

    That off-duty pilot correctly identified the problem the crew was facing and guided them to disable the flight control system in order to save the plane, according to the report, which cited two people familiar with the investigation in Indonesia.

    Investigators said the flight control system malfunction that day was identical to what brought down the same aircraft the next day, according to the report. The Boeing plane, operated by a different crew, crashed into Indonesia's Java Sea, killing all 189 on board.

    Lion Air did not immediately respond to CNBC's request for comment. A Lion Air spokesman told Bloomberg that the airline has submitted all data and information to Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee and cannot comment further due to the ongoing investigation.

    A Lion Air Boeing Co. 737 Max 8 aircraft, right, stands on the tarmac at Soekarno-Hatta International Airport in Cenkareng, Indonesia, on Tuesday, March 12, 2019.
    Dimas Ardian | Bloomberg | Getty Images
    A Lion Air Boeing Co. 737 Max 8 aircraft, right, stands on the tarmac at Soekarno-Hatta International Airport in Cenkareng, Indonesia, on Tuesday, March 12, 2019.
    One day before the deadly crash of a Lion Air plane on Oct. 29 last year, pilots flying that Boeing 737 Max 8 lost control of the aircraft — but they were saved by an off-duty colleague riding in the cockpit, Bloomberg reported on Wednesday.

    That off-duty pilot correctly identified the problem the crew was facing and guided them to disable the flight control system in order to save the plane, according to the report, which cited two people familiar with the investigation in Indonesia.

    Investigators said the flight control system malfunction that day was identical to what brought down the same aircraft the next day, according to the report. The Boeing plane, operated by a different crew, crashed into Indonesia's Java Sea, killing all 189 on board.

    Lion Air did not immediately respond to CNBC's request for comment. A Lion Air spokesman told Bloomberg that the airline has submitted all data and information to Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee and cannot comment further due to the ongoing investigation.

    Boeing declined to comment, while the Indonesian safety committee did not immediately reply to CNBC's request for comment.
    https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...oeing-737-max/

    The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

    The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

    The FBI’s Seattle field office lies in proximity to Boeing’s 737 manufacturing plant in Renton, as well as nearby offices of Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) officials involved in the certification of the plane.

    The investigation, which is being overseen by the U.S. Justice Department’s criminal division and carried out by the Transportation Department’s Inspector General, began in response to information obtained after a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta on Oct. 29, killing 189 people, Bloomberg reported earlier this week, citing an unnamed source.

    It has widened since then, The Associated Press reported this week, with the grand jury issuing a subpoena on March 11 for information from someone involved in the plane’s development, one day after the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 near Addis Ababa that killed 157 people.

    The FBI’s support role was described by people on condition of anonymity because of the confidential nature of the investigation.

    Criminal investigations into the federal oversight of airplane manufacturing and flight are rare, in part because of the longstanding belief that a civil-enforcement system better promotes candid reporting of concerns without fear of criminal repercussions.

    Those criminal cases that have occurred have focused on false entries and misrepresentations.
    One question that we must ask is why so much is relagated to Boeing versus the government agencies that should be overseeing them.

    What we do with boeing is akin to telling banks to regulate themselves and we'll approve whatever they decide,let's be real though considering the oligarchial nature of this country that is essentially what happens.

  2. #2
    Dreadlord
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    MCAS, that system was only way for Boeing to certify their plane. But honestly it's way to early to speculate at this point. MAX is a super safe plane, according to many pilots.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreo View Post
    MCAS, that system was only way for Boeing to certify their plane. But honestly it's way to early to speculate at this point. MAX is a super safe plane, according to many pilots.
    This is complicated and I have a ton of questions:

    Are there a lot of systems that override pilot actions secretly or is this new?
    What’s the max’s safety record relative to previous versions?
    Was there a mechanical failure that should have been fixed prior to all the incidents?

    It’s interesting to think about in the context of self driving cars - I think when it comes to automated systems people are a lot less tolerant of errors and so the benchmark is much higher for automatic than it is for manual. The idea that “the plane was flying itself and crashed” affects us much more viscerally than “the pilot crashed the plane”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    This is complicated and I have a ton of questions:

    Are there a lot of systems that override pilot actions secretly or is this new?
    What’s the max’s safety record relative to previous versions?
    Was there a mechanical failure that should have been fixed prior to all the incidents?

    It’s interesting to think about in the context of self driving cars - I think when it comes to automated systems people are a lot less tolerant of errors and so the benchmark is much higher for automatic than it is for manual. The idea that “the plane was flying itself and crashed” affects us much more viscerally than “the pilot crashed the plane”.
    This is 2 really good video explaining about the crash and MCAS system:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlinocVHpzk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJwUk5HH4KI

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    This is complicated and I have a ton of questions:

    Are there a lot of systems that override pilot actions secretly or is this new?
    The whole MCAS system was introduced to MAX to compensate for certain stall characteristics caused by new bigger engine being mounted more forward. It would be wrong to say that system is stealthily overriding pilot inputs. You have two very noticeable spinning trimwheels downtrimming the plane.

    In reference to what was posted in OP here's the accident repport
    On page 20:
    At 14:28:28 UTC, the PIC moved the STAB TRIM switches to CUT OUT. The PIC re-engagedthe STAB TRIM switches to NORMAL, but almost immediatelythe problem re-appeared.The PIC then moved the STAB TRIM switches back to CUT OUT and continuedwith manual trimwithout auto-pilot until the end of the flight.
    Also for Ethiopian (avherald)

    Following the Nov 6th 2018 release of the Boeing Bulletin regarding MCAS in the aftermath of the crash of the LionAir the airline did distribute the bulletin to their flight crew a number of days later following a reminder. Ethiopian Airlines had been equipped with one Boeing 737-700 NG simulator only when the first MAX aircraft were put into service, the first 737-8 MAX simulator was put into service mid January 2019. Only in March 2019 a trim runaway lesson was included in the NG and MAX training syllabus. Flight crew are scheduled to go through a simulator session every 6 months (as per industry standards), the accident flight crew may thus not yet have received training on a stabilizer trim runaway (in the NG or MAX Simulator).
    So in case of Ethiopian they had been too slow in response for the training as it was part of requirements after Lionair crash. I am not sure wheter it's actually part of basic training for each airline or not but it apparently used to be at least based on this article.

    What’s the max’s safety record relative to previous versions?
    Was there a mechanical failure that should have been fixed prior to all the incidents?

    It’s interesting to think about in the context of self driving cars - I think when it comes to automated systems people are a lot less tolerant of errors and so the benchmark is much higher for automatic than it is for manual. The idea that “the plane was flying itself and crashed” affects us much more viscerally than “the pilot crashed the plane”.
    Apart from the two crashes related caused by said MCAS runaway stabilizer trim, there's no other. Unfortunately both were fatal accidents. Also for the actual reason why MCAS started malfuctioning you have this:
    The Digital Flight Data Recorder(DFDR) recorded a differencebetween left and right Angle of Attack (AoA)6ofabout 20° and continued until the end of recording.During rotation the left control column stick shaker7activated and continued for most of the flight.
    One of the AOA sensors seemed to have failed.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    One question that we must ask is why so much is relagated to Boeing versus the government agencies that should be overseeing them.

    What we do with boeing is akin to telling banks to regulate themselves and we'll approve whatever they decide,let's be real though considering the oligarchial nature of this country that is essentially what happens.
    Fun fact due to congressional cut backs on their budget the FAA no longer has the resources or the staff to properly conduct its duties as a result companies are now policing themselves. It turns out when you give that kind of power to companies whose only motive is to make money they take shortcuts that cost people their lives. This could all have been prevented if the FAA had been given the money to do its job.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Fun fact due to congressional cut backs on their budget the FAA no longer has the resources or the staff to properly conduct its duties as a result companies are now policing themselves. It turns out when you give that kind of power to companies whose only motive is to make money they take shortcuts that cost people their lives. This could all have been prevented if the FAA had been given the money to do its job.
    I'm not sure... I mean, mistakes happen. I don't know enough to say whether this is some crazy negligent thing or a simple mistake. The things that bother me here are:

    1. The plane that was malfunctioning was sent out again with different pilots.
    2. It took months after the first crash, when the system was identified as a problem, for the plane to get grounded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by luc54 View Post
    The whole MCAS system was introduced to MAX to compensate for certain stall characteristics caused by new bigger engine being mounted more forward. It would be wrong to say that system is stealthily overriding pilot inputs. You have two very noticeable spinning trimwheels downtrimming the plane.

    In reference to what was posted in OP here's the accident repport
    On page 20:


    Also for Ethiopian (avherald)



    So in case of Ethiopian they had been too slow in response for the training as it was part of requirements after Lionair crash. I am not sure wheter it's actually part of basic training for each airline or not but it apparently used to be at least based on this article.



    Apart from the two crashes related caused by said MCAS runaway stabilizer trim, there's no other. Unfortunately both were fatal accidents. Also for the actual reason why MCAS started malfuctioning you have this:


    One of the AOA sensors seemed to have failed.
    So yeah,there is only one AOA sensor feeding info to MCAS,and it's prone to failure, see https://arstechnica.com/information-...planes-safety/

    Additionally, the MCAS system was designed to work based on input from only one sensor—despite the fact that Boeing rated a failure of the system as "hazardous." That level of risk—which in itself was understated, according to engineers—should have been enough to require redundant sensors.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    I'm not sure... I mean, mistakes happen. I don't know enough to say whether this is some crazy negligent thing or a simple mistake. The things that bother me here are:

    1. The plane that was malfunctioning was sent out again with different pilots.
    2. It took months after the first crash, when the system was identified as a problem, for the plane to get grounded.
    I am sure the investigation will shed more light but fact is right now there is no cop on the beat the FAA is worthless companies are policing themselves. The plane was rushed they didn't have simulators to train the pilots beforehand they gave them a quick hour run on ipads to save money. This is pretty much a failure of the Us government on every level good luck getting other countries to buy our planes after this shit show is sorted out.
    Last edited by Draco-Onis; 2019-03-21 at 02:20 AM.

  10. #10
    The Undying Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Now that I have my pilots license my goal is to get certified on instruments to fly a jet. I think it’s fascinating how far along aviation is. I had a we bit of a different understanding of what autopilot was. I’m also amazed at what it’s become. Hard to have an opinion about how much or how little we should rely on however I am gutted knowing a few hundred people likely lost their lives because the pilot wasn’t allowed to recover the the plane from a program.
    "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  11. #11
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanrefni View Post
    So yeah,there is only one AOA sensor feeding info to MCAS,and it's prone to failure, see https://arstechnica.com/information-...planes-safety/
    Well that seems like a pretty big problem.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    One question that we must ask is why so much is relagated to Boeing versus the government agencies that should be overseeing them.

    What we do with boeing is akin to telling banks to regulate themselves and we'll approve whatever they decide,let's be real though considering the oligarchial nature of this country that is essentially what happens.
    You answered your own question.

    The agency meant to regulate these kinds of issues had their funding cut so much that they can't afford to regulate as they're supposed to. As such, they default to what Boeing tells them. So if Boeing doesn't tell them there's an issue, they don't have the funding to prove otherwise, and have to take them at their word.

    Thus, unless we plan to spend a bunch of money reinvigorating the regulation industry, we're stuck hoping the airline is regulating itself properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  13. #13
    The Undying Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    So now will this end up costing Boeing with huge fines, or a slap on the wrist?
    "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  14. #14
    So, what crashes faster Boeing airplanes or Boeing stock?

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