Is the rise of raider.io the fall of ilvl?

[Mighty Tim]

I'd love to see how you managed that, actually. PvP?



That is a significant difference in a character's ability to perform their role. 10 ilevels is enough to completely trivialize content. When world first guilds go apeshit to try to get every leg up over the competition it's usually for significantly less than 10 ilevels. It may not seem like a significant number, but in terms of character power it absolutely is.

It isn't enough for pugging though as per the topic of the thread. The mythic world race is a different beast then the rest of the game and you can not use the same yard sticks.

[RoKPaNda]

It isn't enough for pugging though as per the topic of the thread. The mythic world race is a different beast then the rest of the game and you can not use the same yard sticks.

If it wasn't raider.io / ilevel / gearscore / etc it would be something else. That's what this community does. We already know that this community likes to perpetuate myths of Mythic geared LFR heroes and such, and we know from history that this community will always find a way to gatekeep content. It's just what the WoW community does.

[Temis]

Why do you think this thing is about iLvl in the first place?

Blizzard has said that they want ilvl to be the main gauge for whether an item is an upgrade. The question "Are you going to address the issue where secondaries are more important than main stat?" was in the Q&A yesterday which essentially asks why ilvl doesnt always matter. This question as well as loot RNG, pvp loot, loot feeling meaningless have been asked every Q&A for years now I think.

In the Q&A Ion and Josh say that an item that is +15ilvl from your current one should always be an upgrade.

They talked about how they made items gain less secondary stat as the ilvl goes up and the expansion progresses to force players to gain more main stat and make the gain in main stat larger then secondary stats. Which means that secondary stats wont have the impact on your game play like they have in past expansions where you where able to have high amounts of a stats and that would impact the way you do your rotation.

They also said it was "interesting" to talk about secondary stats in the realm of side grades and said that people will sim their gear but failed to address the fact that people need to sim their gear because Blizzard made secondary stats impossible to easily calculate with the way they made gear now.

Lore has made the argument that if Blizzard made the secondary stats easy to calculate gear would be very boring but in the past it use to be that there would be a list of stats that you could get on items and you would be able to see that x stat was worth 1 and that y stat was worth 5 and so on, so that when a item drops you can look at the item and relatively quickly determine if that item is an upgrade without needing to constantly go to a third party site and calculate every item you get. At the same time there would be stats that you only wanted a specific amount or that after a specific percentage the stat would be less useful.

I think most people could agree that back in TBC stats on gear was relatively easy to understand and I would say that items where fun as well. As a feral tank I could stack stam and have a really high health pool or I could stack agi and dodge and with the right trinkets I could have nearly 100% dodge for about 15 seconds. Mages would get more crit with the high level gear and being able to have more of that stat would allow them to play the class differently.

It seems to me that as the players have focused on ilvl equating to competency, Blizzard has focused on ilvl and tried to make it the most important thing when determining if an item is an upgrade. Never has higher ilvl ever actually meant that the player is more competent nor that the higher ilvl item is always the better item been true.

But it seems the average player perception was that those 2 statements where true often enough that they where a good gauge. In Legion and now BFA the average player seems to have moved to raider io and logs as a way to determine competency and ilvl being meaningless.

Now that it seems the average player perception has changed and given that Blizzard has been unable to solve their problem of trying to make the highest ilvl always better will there be a change? We wont see a change in BFA but maybe the next expansion? Blizzard has been going down this ilvl road since Cata.

[MoanaLisa]

...we know from history that this community will always find a way to gatekeep content. It's just what the WoW community does.

There is a lot of irony in the calls for "This is an MMO and we need a better community" that we constantly see here.

It's very clear that many in the game community are more interested in excluding others than being inclusive. This has been true for over ten years now. That's one reason why angry takes on "community" don't hold a lot of water. It's also the reason that I think the Classic community may be kidding itself over the lovefest that some seem to expect. Assessing players primarily from a point of need to exclude them rather than be inclusive has become a habit and will die hard if at all.

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It seems to me that as the players have focused on ilvl equating to competency

They have and this has always been a mistake. It equates to personal progression. It's the thermometer that's colored in on the fund-raiding sign. That's all it is and that's why it stays.

[Sansnom]

It's very clear that many in the game community are more interested in excluding others than being inclusive. This has been true for over ten years now.

Yup. It about being members of a special club.

it is like climbing a mountain for the view at the top.

Some likes the challenge of the climb to the top.

Some likes the view from top, regardless how to get there.

Then there are those that neither care of the climb nor the view. The just care they get to see the view and others cannot.

[Mighty Tim]

If it wasn't raider.io / ilevel / gearscore / etc it would be something else. That's what this community does. We already know that this community likes to perpetuate myths of Mythic geared LFR heroes and such, and we know from history that this community will always find a way to gatekeep content. It's just what the WoW community does.

Right but none of that has to do with what I said...

The requirements keep getting higher because the entry level keeps lowering from excessive gearing.

[tclphz]

There is a lot of irony in the calls for "This is an MMO and we need a better community" that we constantly see here.

It's very clear that many in the game community are more interested in excluding others than being inclusive. This has been true for over ten years now. That's one reason why angry takes on "community" don't hold a lot of water. It's also the reason that I think the Classic community may be kidding itself over the lovefest that some seem to expect. Assessing players primarily from a point of need to exclude them rather than be inclusive has become a habit and will die hard if at all.

It does feel like back in the day, the community seemed more friendly. Or, even if it wasn't more friendly, it wasn't as elitist and toxic. Perhaps it was just that there was less information available (e.g. achievements, ilvl, .io score, not sure if right, but I don't recall percentiles available in logs). It also didn't seem like a big deal not to be pushing more recent content (raids). I wasn't in high level raiding so perhaps it was different at that level. The elitism just wasn't pervasive throughout like today. So perhaps knowing less about other players made people not be as elitist and less judge-y.

It's possible this is all nostalgia.

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Right but none of that has to do with what I said...

The requirements keep getting higher because the entry level keeps lowering from excessive gearing.

I don't think it has to do with gear. I think it's more about the players. Though the ease of gearing might lead people to be less willing to put in effort to get gear, hence the push to make content easier.

[callipygoustp]

Given the number of times I've seen a 400+ ilvl dps unable to do >10k dps on various boss fights.... yeah, I'll lean on raider.io before I worry about a person's ilvl.

"it's a trap!"

[munkeyinorbit]

It seems to me like the majority of the community has come to the conclusion that ilvl is meaningless as a gauge of competency in the game based on the large number of people that use raider.io to help them make groups and seem to put little or no weight in to ilvl.

Players that wish to preform their best and get the most out of their characters sim their gear because often the highest ilvl items are not the best for them. Blizzard has tried for 9? years now to make ilvl the most important number on items and items seem to me to have only gotten more boring having less impact on the way people play the game while losing all the cool RPG elements that gear use to have many years ago.

So my question is, is it finally time that Blizzard can remove their focus on ilvl? Could Blizzard now go back to a loot system where the secondary states are more easy to understand and dont require everyone to sim their gear every time an item drops?

I really hope Blizzard moves away from ilvl because I really only gear getting more boring if they try to stick with ilvl. At some point I think the devs will be forced to take all secondary stats off gear to make ilvl work the way they want it to.

no.

Most content is done by people who just don't care about this shit. When I look for players I expect them to know what they are doing and I use ilvl to get a gauge of that. If they don't and they tell me, no big deal. I tell them.

Who can be fucking bothered with the vetting system used by raider.io? A minority, that is who. look for a number. Invite. Clear content.

[Mighty Tim]

There is a lot of irony in the calls for "This is an MMO and we need a better community" that we constantly see here.

It's very clear that many in the game community are more interested in excluding others than being inclusive. This has been true for over ten years now. That's one reason why angry takes on "community" don't hold a lot of water. It's also the reason that I think the Classic community may be kidding itself over the lovefest that some seem to expect. Assessing players primarily from a point of need to exclude them rather than be inclusive has become a habit and will die hard if at all.

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They have and this has always been a mistake. It equates to personal progression. It's the thermometer that's colored in on the fund-raiding sign. That's all it is and that's why it stays.

I think the issue started at the end of tbc when wow moved away from linear progression. The problem isn't so much the communities fault but rather how utterly destroyed the game has become in the name of accessibility. Let's look at tbc. If I just started playing t cap my upgrade path would be dungeons, heroic dungeons then a mix of crafting,pvp,and kara. The progression line is clear it isn't hard to find people around my skill to play with.

Compare that to BFA? I returned for the free weekend after stopping mid uld with a ilv of 375. In 3 hours I now sit at 398 just shy of 400. According to the game I should be looking at mythic raids as the next step to progression... I haven't done any content above a mythic 0 yet.

This massive skill jump isn't something I think many players can handle and there isn't a way to tell on paper just what a player is capable of doing without third party addons with how broken gear is.

You can't blame the community for closing itself off when it has zero way of knowing if a player they pug can even cast their rotation when content is moving more and more into time attack modes. Old wows success was giving every player something to do. New wows down fall has been trying to give every player everything to do.

[Sansnom]

Old wows success was giving every player something to do. New wows down fall has been trying to give every player everything to do.

I think it was the opposite. Old had linear path progression, which was fine as long as that person can and enjoy that progression. If not, there is nothing else.

So if the player did not participate in those content, their progression stops. It did not offer anything outside of raid in terms of gear progression.

Not everyone raids. Not everyone do dungeons. It is not always due to skill, it can be other factors. Time is one factor. Not everyone plays at the busy hours. Not everyone can play at a regular scheduled time. Not everyone can play uninterrupted for 2+ hours.

One could argue that maybe those players should choose a different game. Maybe they should. Maybe some did. But that is one less subscriber.

[Mighty Tim]

I think it was the opposite. Old had linear path progression, which was fine as long as that person can and enjoy that progression. If not, there is nothing else.

So if the player did not participate in those content, their progression stops. It did not offer anything outside of raid in terms of gear progression.

Not everyone raids. Not everyone do dungeons. It is not always due to skill, it can be other factors. Time is one factor. Not everyone plays at the busy hours. Not everyone can play at a regular scheduled time. Not everyone can play uninterrupted for 2+ hours.

One could argue that maybe those players should choose a different game. Maybe they should. Maybe some did. But that is one less subscriber.

Nothing has changed for those players beyond the time commitment needed to far ap has increased...

You can't make a game for every person it is akin to making everyone like the same food you just end up with sludge

[Lurker1]

It seems to me like the majority of the community has come to the conclusion that ilvl is meaningless as a gauge of competency in the game based on the large number of people that use raider.io to help them make groups and seem to put little or no weight in to ilvl.

Players that wish to preform their best and get the most out of their characters sim their gear because often the highest ilvl items are not the best for them. Blizzard has tried for 9? years now to make ilvl the most important number on items and items seem to me to have only gotten more boring having less impact on the way people play the game while losing all the cool RPG elements that gear use to have many years ago.

So my question is, is it finally time that Blizzard can remove their focus on ilvl? Could Blizzard now go back to a loot system where the secondary states are more easy to understand and dont require everyone to sim their gear every time an item drops?

I really hope Blizzard moves away from ilvl because I really only gear getting more boring if they try to stick with ilvl. At some point I think the devs will be forced to take all secondary stats off gear to make ilvl work the way they want it to.

No not at all because i only use LFR only that system matters to me thank god for that and lol at people useing 3rd party website for a videogame what a joke.

[Twdft]

It's very clear that many in the game community are more interested in excluding others than being inclusive.

Talking about mythic+ there absolutely is a certain point where you have to exclude players not up for the task. Say you want to join someones +10 key for your chest. That someone has to have done a +9 in time before to even get their +10 key. Not every player is able to complete a +9 in time. So the question is: how are they supposed to complete it without being excluding?

[Xath]

I strongly believe raider.io is a consequence of the amount of welfare gear people are getting showered in.
people have always found ways of filtering players for groups, be it inspecting them in front of dala bank, or gear score, or whatever but it's always been based on gear in the past

This is accurate until legion gear was basically locked based on the content you did so ilvl sas sufficient with the advent of titanforging and crazy catchup mechanics this is no longer the case.

[Druitz]

Ilvl is still important. You can be very good player but day will come when you will lack dps, hps or hp. Ofc score > ilvl espesially because there are mythic raiders with 415+ ilvl and just 1k score.

Imagine that you need rogue and there are nearly same score rogues in que but one has 414ilvl and second 403. Who you take?

[ToxicFlame]

Ilvl is still important. You can be very good player but day will come when you will lack dps, hps or hp. Ofc score > ilvl espesially because there are mythic raiders with 415+ ilvl and just 1k score.

Imagine that you need rogue and there are nearly same score rogues in que but one has 414ilvl and second 403. Who you take?

sure you'll take the 414 one yet ilvl is still the secondary consideration.
Lets turn it around. Lets say the 403 rogue has 1000 r.io and the 414 one has 100.

[RoKPaNda]

Plenty of gold so three Mythic BoEs. 405 helm from world boss, 405 chest from Azerite Residue (just from island missions), 3 400 items from Darkshore warfront, 395 ring from Service Medals. Rest is 385+ from emissary (a few are warforged) and one good titanforge roll (a 390 trinket from LFR). When the World Boss trinket drops I should be at 400.

I'd actually be in favor of an actual progression score by Blizzard. My only issue with raider score is that if you take a break you are fucked. Heck even if you try to join at a season or expansion reset people still asked for your score from Legion or Season 1. So you either need a good group of friends to help you grind score or to waste gold and/or money on boosts.

That's a pretty hardcore gearing strategy for an alt that doesn't raid. Nice. I approve.

[Beefkow]

It's so easy to get ilvl right now, takes practically no skill or out work to obtain 400+ ilvl.

You could be a 417 dh but maybe this 411 dh does more damage and outperforms the other one.

Raider.io helps bridge the gap of knowing whether or not the player knows what he's doing.

[vsb]

Simming gear is pointless. Highest ilvl gear is almost always better and if it's not better, then the difference is so marginal that you could just don't care.