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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Disengage and harpoon have similar CDs and are easy to use in tandem.

    SV is one of the few melee classes without increased movement speed by default, so using disengage and harpoon well is a must.

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    Which hasn't been an issue post-Uldir.

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    This would be exceptionally dumb. Having to maintain differing ranged with the amount of boss movements in raiding would easily make it the most challenging spec in the game. Would need a 25%+ DPS buff to make that work.
    Melee / ranged balance is always an issue in most aspects of the game, we don't get a solution to it, only periods where its slightly less problematic, dazuldazar is slightly less punishing to melee heavy comps than uldir was, but its still a disadvantage to be melee heavy as it always is, its also still more difficult to get a dps spot as melee and raids simply because there's jus more melee dps players in the game to pick from.

    That's always been the eternal issue, melee is naturally a more popular fantasy that's been compounded in a way by all the added classes with cool new fantasy also being melee dps :/

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ its just part of the game.
    Classic WoW, is just Brexit. Bunch of dudes missing the glory of the past, all with vastly different opinions of how to get there, but ultimately heading for a World of Disappointment.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjub View Post
    I mean... I want to be constantly bouncing back and forth. It would be fun if CDs were not a limit, but instead ranges ... so we have to disengage to grenade or <insert other cool abilities> and then we harpoon to get all up in their face. (the caveat here would be that you can do consistent dps from either as long as you are hopping back and forth ... and maybe cooldowns to handle boss fights that make this annoying or a potential dps loss... I don't know). I just really like the active gameplay and the feeling of bounding back and forth (and throwing grenades at things at my feet is stupid lol.
    You can do that by just playing a ranged spec, which can fight with full capacity from 0 to 40 yards, and jumping in an out as you so please. That way you don't have to force such a repulsive playstyle on everyone else.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    You can do that by just playing a ranged spec, which can fight with full capacity from 0 to 40 yards, and jumping in an out as you so please. That way you don't have to force such a repulsive playstyle on everyone else.
    First of all, you seem like a fun guy. Remind me to invite you to my next party.

    Second, who is forcing anyone to play anything? You literally just told me to play a different spec. Why does that jerkish suggestion not apply to you?

    Third, there is no other class that plays like how I describe. So... go home, you're drunk.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjub View Post
    First of all, you seem like a fun guy. Remind me to invite you to my next party.

    Second, who is forcing anyone to play anything? You literally just told me to play a different spec. Why does that jerkish suggestion not apply to you?

    Third, there is no other class that plays like how I describe. So... go home, you're drunk.
    You are suggesting Blizzard to force such an unwanted and god-awful playstyle on everyone else. That's what you're doing when you suggest a minimum range for some spells. Requiring a spec to run in and out of melee is completely arbitrary, counter-intuitive, and bothersome.. If that's what you want you should emulate that in an existing spec because hardly anyone else wants it. There are a limited number of specs in this game so we don't want to waste them on horrible niche ideas like yours. Demanding that they make a spec like that is maximally selfish and inconsiderate of other players.

    It's like wanting Blizzard to make Survival a spec where you have to do a 360 degree jump before each spell. Fuck that, do it yourself by pretending it has that limitation and let other players enjoy a real spec.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    You are suggesting Blizzard to force such an unwanted and god-awful playstyle on everyone else. That's what you're doing when you suggest a minimum range for some spells. Requiring a spec to run in and out of melee is completely arbitrary, counter-intuitive, and bothersome.. If that's what you want you should emulate that in an existing spec because hardly anyone else wants it. There are a limited number of specs in this game so we don't want to waste them on horrible niche ideas like yours. Demanding that they make a spec like that is maximally selfish and inconsiderate of other players.

    It's like wanting Blizzard to make Survival a spec where you have to do a 360 degree jump before each spell. Fuck that, do it yourself by pretending it has that limitation and let other players enjoy a real spec.
    There's a poster on the Blizzard Hunter forums by the name of Bepples, think the two of you would hit it off really well.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogdenir View Post
    There's a poster on the Blizzard Hunter forums by the name of Bepples, think the two of you would hit it off really well.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    wondered about that, got a lot of upvotes from me on there.

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord Turbotef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjub View Post
    First of all, you seem like a fun guy. Remind me to invite you to my next party.

    Second, who is forcing anyone to play anything? You literally just told me to play a different spec. Why does that jerkish suggestion not apply to you?

    Third, there is no other class that plays like how I describe. So... go home, you're drunk.
    Enjoy the spec and do yourself a favor and put FpicEail on ignore. In my 20 years of playing MMOs, I've only seen a handful of fanatical players like them and they are best left ignored. I lived with one for a couple years back in 2002-2005 and he would never shut up about SoE (Sony Online Entertainment) shit and rogues/mages in WoW.

    I take solace in the fact that the spec is never going back to ranged and I love that that pisses him off.
    "The goblins tickled her to the next dimension. -4kids"

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbotef View Post
    Enjoy the spec and do yourself a favor and put FpicEail on ignore. In my 20 years of playing MMOs, I've only seen a handful of fanatical players like them and they are best left ignored. I lived with one for a couple years back in 2002-2005 and he would never shut up about SoE (Sony Online Entertainment) shit and rogues/mages in WoW.

    I take solace in the fact that the spec is never going back to ranged and I love that that pisses him off.
    Think before you speak. I wasn't even talking about melee Survival. I was talking about the reprehensible garbage that is a forced ranged-melee hybrid which has to constantly swap between ranged and melee. I'd honestly rather Survival stay purely melee than adopt something as bad as that. It literally offers nothing in terms of either gameplay or theme; it's purely tokenism so you can say "no other spec does this!" and nothing more. I'm aware that FF14 has a class that does this and frankly I think it's a shit idea there too.

    People who want that playstyle, make it yourself. Play a ranged spec and run in-and-out of melee based on your own rules. Don't try to force it on others.

    Same for melee Hunters, frankly. Play BM and stack on the mob's ass. What's with people who like niche playstyles? Why are they so obsessed with forcing them on everyone else? Do they think that will make people like those playstyles? Survival is hard proof that it doesn't work.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Think before you speak. I wasn't even talking about melee Survival. I was talking about the reprehensible garbage that is a forced ranged-melee hybrid which has to constantly swap between ranged and melee. I'd honestly rather Survival stay purely melee than adopt something as bad as that. It literally offers nothing in terms of either gameplay or theme; it's purely tokenism so you can say "no other spec does this!" and nothing more. I'm aware that FF14 has a class that does this and frankly I think it's a shit idea there too.

    People who want that playstyle, make it yourself. Play a ranged spec and run in-and-out of melee based on your own rules. Don't try to force it on others.

    Same for melee Hunters, frankly. Play BM and stack on the mob's ass. What's with people who like niche playstyles? Why are they so obsessed with forcing them on everyone else? Do they think that will make people like those playstyles? Survival is hard proof that it doesn't work.
    I just think you lack vision. Which is OK. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. But I feel like your mindset has been narrowed by experience (maybe?). Not sure.

    Think of it like this... almost everything in an MMORPG is cosmetic. It is all dressed dice-rolling. Visual candy for complicated math. You have probably heard the example that a hunter's pet is "just a DoT" ... and it's true. It is a visually represented source of damage over time. Hunters could have been given a spell "Hunter's Wrath" that is an indispensable debuff that, once casts on a foe, let's you cast other spells that cleanses or stuns or slows or does burst damage. But because this is an MMO with flavor ... hunters have pets. You can achieve the exact same thing with an "aura" but that's not as enjoyable for the player for class fantasy.

    Well the same could be said of your avatar. It is just a visible representation of "damage over time." Range or melee really doesn't matter, as long as you are given the tools to do both (which, as is, would be annoying for any spec to switch back and forth). Again, think of it like this... most boss encounters are just complicated DDR simulators. You push the right buttons at the right time. There doesn't have to be a big boss or your character but that would be... lame! They could make every spec range and it wouldn't change much (like you said... range can just stand right on top of something anyways, right .... so if you want to play melee you can do that, but you aren't forced to... God forbid you are forced to do something (side bar: limits are actually a GOOD thing when it comes to game design and fun in general, there can be no fun without limits)). Why not just have warriors have the same range as mages and then the player decides how to play? Because that's DUMB for an RPG.

    I personally think it's dumb that most of the time I am throwing grenades at my feet. As far as "flavor" goes. But if disengage always reset the CD on harpoon, and vice versa, that could be cool. I also think the "build/spend" mechanic would be cool with this dance... i.e., build up stacks at range, hop back for a bigger burst to spend stacks. And then build up stacks from range, jump back in to swing away. This let's the player have more agency.

    But your range to the MOB is really just an illusion. It's for class fantasy (plus I want a blow gun!) and "the joy of movement" ... It's a rotation, you just aren't thinking of it like that. Press X, then press Y, then press Z ... in this case X builds, Y changes your range positioning, and Z spends. Rinse and repeat.

    I don't think current SV is proof of anything. 1) It's nothing like I described and 2) It's super fun and one of the best specs in the game right now.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjub View Post
    I just think you lack vision. Which is OK. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. But I feel like your mindset has been narrowed by experience (maybe?). Not sure.

    Think of it like this... almost everything in an MMORPG is cosmetic. It is all dressed dice-rolling. Visual candy for complicated math. You have probably heard the example that a hunter's pet is "just a DoT" ... and it's true. It is a visually represented source of damage over time. Hunters could have been given a spell "Hunter's Wrath" that is an indispensable debuff that, once casts on a foe, let's you cast other spells that cleanses or stuns or slows or does burst damage. But because this is an MMO with flavor ... hunters have pets. You can achieve the exact same thing with an "aura" but that's not as enjoyable for the player for class fantasy.

    Well the same could be said of your avatar. It is just a visible representation of "damage over time." Range or melee really doesn't matter, as long as you are given the tools to do both (which, as is, would be annoying for any spec to switch back and forth). Again, think of it like this... most boss encounters are just complicated DDR simulators. You push the right buttons at the right time. There doesn't have to be a big boss or your character but that would be... lame! They could make every spec range and it wouldn't change much (like you said... range can just stand right on top of something anyways, right .... so if you want to play melee you can do that, but you aren't forced to... God forbid you are forced to do something (side bar: limits are actually a GOOD thing when it comes to game design and fun in general, there can be no fun without limits)). Why not just have warriors have the same range as mages and then the player decides how to play? Because that's DUMB for an RPG.

    I personally think it's dumb that most of the time I am throwing grenades at my feet. As far as "flavor" goes. But if disengage always reset the CD on harpoon, and vice versa, that could be cool. I also think the "build/spend" mechanic would be cool with this dance... i.e., build up stacks at range, hop back for a bigger burst to spend stacks. And then build up stacks from range, jump back in to swing away. This let's the player have more agency.

    But your range to the MOB is really just an illusion. It's for class fantasy (plus I want a blow gun!) and "the joy of movement" ... It's a rotation, you just aren't thinking of it like that. Press X, then press Y, then press Z ... in this case X builds, Y changes your range positioning, and Z spends. Rinse and repeat.

    I don't think current SV is proof of anything. 1) It's nothing like I described and 2) It's super fun and one of the best specs in the game right now.
    best spec's in the game?
    (I know this may not be spot on correct) but best seems like a far reach https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes
    *going off that chart seems like most people knows it's a crap spec.

    *and that range "illusion" goes to hell when looking at getting out of reach of certain effect or kiting a mob....

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    best spec's in the game?
    (I know this may not be spot on correct) but best seems like a far reach https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes
    *going off that chart seems like most people knows it's a crap spec.

    *and that range "illusion" goes to hell when looking at getting out of reach of certain effect or kiting a mob....
    Look! Another person with absolutely no vision!! (Assuming this isn't just a second account for FpicEail??? I am not convinced that it is not)

    Damage / performance has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not a spec is good or bad, from a design perspective. It is conceivable that there could be a spec called a "DOMINATOR" that has just one spell that does 800x more dps than any other class/spec. Does that mean it's the best spec in the game? No. It doesn't. I am talking purely from a design perspective, not numbers. Come on. I hope you are smarter than that.

    Also, range is still an illusion because -- again -- the entire game is just a visual representation of math. You just can't see past the illusion. It's cool. It was designed to do just that. And, heck, most the people in the Matrix couldn't see past it either.

    "Getting out of a certain effect" could also be worded as "hitting the right arrow key until you are no longer taking damage" ... again, it is a DDR illusion represented by 3D images.

    Finally, nothing you had to say has anything whatever to do about the topic I have been discussing... which is a more dynamic / movement based hunter that is popping in and out of melee/range more would be cool and no one here has convinced me that it wouldn't be. We already have TONS of ranged specs and TONS of melee specs.... but for some reason I am the villain suggesting Blizzard try something different with 1 spec... OK.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjub View Post
    Look! Another person with absolutely no vision!! (Assuming this isn't just a second account for FpicEail??? I am not convinced that it is not)

    Damage / performance has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not a spec is good or bad, from a design perspective. It is conceivable that there could be a spec called a "DOMINATOR" that has just one spell that does 800x more dps than any other class/spec. Does that mean it's the best spec in the game? No. It doesn't. I am talking purely from a design perspective, not numbers. Come on. I hope you are smarter than that.

    Also, range is still an illusion because -- again -- the entire game is just a visual representation of math. You just can't see past the illusion. It's cool. It was designed to do just that. And, heck, most the people in the Matrix couldn't see past it either.

    "Getting out of a certain effect" could also be worded as "hitting the right arrow key until you are no longer taking damage" ... again, it is a DDR illusion represented by 3D images.

    Finally, nothing you had to say has anything whatever to do about the topic I have been discussing... which is a more dynamic / movement based hunter that is popping in and out of melee/range more would be cool and no one here has convinced me that it wouldn't be. We already have TONS of ranged specs and TONS of melee specs.... but for some reason I am the villain suggesting Blizzard try something different with 1 spec... OK.
    no vision lol, how about not having to move at all and keep DPS'ing instead of worrying about moving till no longer taking damage derrrrr no Illusion just simple math, less movement (even more so now) = more DPS but you know vision lutz....

    it's a crap spec and there are already a number of Melee's that do it better. and why you still hardly see anyone play it, their "vision" is not blind as a bat.

    And how many range vs melee do we have, and take in account ranged finger wigglers vs non-magic DPS'er , ya lack of vision there.
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2019-04-16 at 06:02 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    no vision lol, how about not having to move at all and keep DPS'ing instead of worrying about moving till no longer taking damage derrrrr no Illusion just simple math, less movement (even more so now) = more DPS but you know vision lutz....

    it's a crap spec and there are already a number of Melee's that do it better. and why you still hardly see anyone play it, their "vision" is not blind as a bat.

    And how many range vs melee do we have, and take in account ranged finger wigglers vs non-magic DPS'er , ya lack of vision there.
    What? None of that made any sense. Nor was it relevant to my original and subsequent posts about SV hunter design changes that I personally think could be fun. I am going to chalk it up to this: you are salty that SV is ranged so you are just stringing random words together in your blind rage without any coherent thought or even concern to one day have a coherent thought. You might have been replying to any post here with your angry incoherence. So rage on my angry, brother!

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjub View Post
    What? None of that made any sense. Nor was it relevant to my original and subsequent posts about SV hunter design changes that I personally think could be fun. I am going to chalk it up to this: you are salty that SV is ranged so you are just stringing random words together in your blind rage without any coherent thought or even concern to one day have a coherent thought. You might have been replying to any post here with your angry incoherence. So rage on my angry, brother!
    Your the one bringing the BS vision crap into it, what vision is there making another Melee spec when there is already more of them (is that simple enough for you or should I go to pre-school wording), and your crap about moment and range being a illusion (and it was crap).

    And yes I am salty, it was a dumb-ass decision to take a popular spec and turn it into a unpopular one.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    Your the one bringing the BS vision crap into it, what vision is there making another Melee spec when there is already more of them (is that simple enough for you or should I go to pre-school wording), and your crap about moment and range being a illusion (and it was crap).

    And yes I am salty, it was a dumb-ass decision to take a popular spec and turn it into a unpopular one.
    I hope you get the support and healing you need to get through this difficult time!

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjub View Post
    I hope you get the support and healing you need to get through this difficult time!
    so your just full of it with your vision BS huh?

    *I'll take your crappy response as a yes to it being all BS...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbotef View Post
    I take solace in the fact that the spec is never going back to ranged and I love that that pisses him off.
    I wouldn't be so sure. 2 full expansions of the spec being an abject failure, there's a fair chance it goes back to ranged at some point when Blizzard eventually realises that the game doesn't have enough ranged specs and nobody is interested in melee hunter.

  19. #39
    Scarab Lord Turbotef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure. 2 full expansions of the spec being an abject failure, there's a fair chance it goes back to ranged at some point when Blizzard eventually realises that the game doesn't have enough ranged specs and nobody is interested in melee hunter.
    Eh, the spec plays and operates just fine the way it is and I highly doubt they're going to undo the lore and models they've made up for the spec thus far. The game hasn't had a new range class added since 2004 and its still doing fine. If anything the next class will have a ranged spec.

    You guys think this simple shit through too much tbh.
    "The goblins tickled her to the next dimension. -4kids"

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbotef View Post
    Eh, the spec plays and operates just fine the way it is and I highly doubt they're going to undo the lore and models they've made up for the spec thus far. The game hasn't had a new range class added since 2004 and its still doing fine. If anything the next class will have a ranged spec.

    You guys think this simple shit through too much tbh.
    I have to agree here it will for sure have some kind of ranged spec if its the main thing the class will do nobody knows.

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