United Horde Vs Alliance

[Super Dickmann]

To be fair the same can be said for the Alliance in Warcraft 2, The horde would have been stuck, and most likely slaughtered in Alteriac mountains had Perenold not made a deal with the Horde... But people like to ignore that lore point :P

Don't say I wouldn't have happened, Trollbain later took a small force and did just that effectively cutting of the remaining horde reinforcements en rout to the capitol

I actually agree. The Second War is one of the few wars in this game where we can actually argue from an in-story perspective, since it cared about things like numbers and logistics.

[Bigby]

The Alliance should be able to drown the Horde through sheer weight of numbers, nevermind it's technological advantages, if the story made any consistent sense.

But it doesn't. So here we are.

[Thage]

The Horde, sadly, will never be united. Every time we fight the Alliance we end up fighting each other instead. It’s boring and I’m sick of it.

Even if we were united we probably wouldn’t win. The Alliance has too many OP characters that they can use against us. Something Blizzard hasn’t bothered sorting out, creating a massive lore power gap. It’s pretty frustrating for both sides since the Alliance is shackled and the Horde feels like it’s getting handicap benefits instead of being able to fight fairly.

It also creates plot holes that are irritating Alliance-side. For example, after Teldrassil was put to the torch and Darkshore desecrated, why aren't the Ancients out there ripping the Horde a new one, for all the lip service they pay to favoring the kaldorei and about protecting nature? Why didn't the Lightforged bombard the Horde from orbit while they were stonewalled by the wisps? If the Vindicaar was out of commission, why wasn't it mentioned as being so? Why didn't Jaina bring Dalaran to Orgrimmar and air-to-surface mass bombard the True Horde's exterior defenses? I don't think Galakras would have survived long with every mage in Dalaran who wasn't focused on keeping it afloat slinging Pyroblasts at it. What's up with Jaina having the Thunder King's essence in her staff and never unleashing something that was powerful enough to subdue a Titan Watcher singlehandedly?

The faction war was hamstrung far more than helped by WoW's existence as an MMORPG. By necessity, no gains will ever be made in a meaningful way. Losing Teldrassil/UC was the most ambitious step forward the faction war's taken since Warcraft II and it was followed up with more of the same tit for tat with the Horde sabotaging itself and the Alliance keeping their big guns mothballed. It's a good thing they're finally getting the expansion's real story underway in 8.2 because man, did they fuck up the PvP side of the story once again.

[Zandalariprelate]

It also creates plot holes that are irritating Alliance-side. For example, after Teldrassil was put to the torch and Darkshore desecrated, why aren't the Ancients out there ripping the Horde a new one, for all the lip service they pay to favoring the kaldorei and about protecting nature? Why didn't the Lightforged bombard the Horde from orbit while they were stonewalled by the wisps? If the Vindicaar was out of commission, why wasn't it mentioned as being so? Why didn't Jaina bring Dalaran to Orgrimmar and air-to-surface mass bombard the True Horde's exterior defenses? I don't think Galakras would have survived long with every mage in Dalaran who wasn't focused on keeping it afloat slinging Pyroblasts at it. What's up with Jaina having the Thunder King's essence in her staff and never unleashing something that was powerful enough to subdue a Titan Watcher singlehandedly?

The faction war was hamstrung far more than helped by WoW's existence as an MMORPG. By necessity, no gains will ever be made in a meaningful way. Losing Teldrassil/UC was the most ambitious step forward the faction war's taken since Warcraft II and it was followed up with more of the same tit for tat with the Horde sabotaging itself and the Alliance keeping their big guns mothballed. It's a good thing they're finally getting the expansion's real story underway in 8.2 because man, did they fuck up the PvP side of the story once again.

1)Jaina staff only has the power of the thunder island, Wrathion got most of the power of Lei Shen.

2)Dalaran doesn't give a damm about the well being of others nation, they never did even in the 2nd and 3rd war which is why they got most of their city and population destroyed by the scourge

3) Only Cenarius cares about the nelves, although I won't discard the stupidity of the forsakens to piss off the loa and the wild gods at some point.

4) I agree with the vindicar being out of commision off screen is truly idiotic and they even admit it in some interview

[Evilfish]

United how? In "honor" cause if it's that kind of union the Horde are screwed, in fact it wouldn't even be a battle, it would just be submission to the Alliance.

On the other hand, a Horde focused less on "honor" and more on results would be, I think, unstoppable. Of course that is only if you assume the Alliance is the same bad joke we have on our screens today.

[Powerogue]

The Horde, with Sylvanas's horrendous, yet effective tactics managing to overwhelm the Alliance when they're not willing to do the same.

The issue of course is that the Horde isn't united on that front, as Sylvanas continually undermines the things that keep the Horde together, which has already cost her 3 faction leaders. (the desolate council, Saurfang, and Baine)

United under the concept of "honor" under someone like Saurfang or Baine? Probably the same stalemate we've gotten accustomed to.

[matrix123mko]

To be fair the same can be said for the Alliance in Warcraft 2, The horde would have been stuck, and most likely slaughtered in Alteriac mountains had Perenold not made a deal with the Horde... But people like to ignore that lore point :P

Perenolde changed side because he was too weak. Like Italy, her prefers joining enemy to dying. If he didn't betray, his nation would be slaughtered and Horde would still get to Lordaeron.

[Ramz]

The horde has no chance at all, theoretically the Alliance has manpower, technological and magical advantage. Also, we have Velen (watch the movie: Edge of Tomorrow, to understand while he is an ultimate superweapon)

The only thing why horde still exists is that its needed for subscriptions.

No Alliance doesn't have the manpower that was the reason why they had to retreat from Dazar'Alor. Also people are overetimating the power of Vindicar as it only was able to make a hole to enter Antorus. It's not designed to oblibertate cities.
Sd for Velen he was only seen using protection shields which is something that Talanji also can.

As for the answer, - I don't know. It really depends on on lots of factors, mainly who devs wants to win. Many times factions which had all the advantages in the world couldn't press on for reasons. And let's not pretend that Warcraft lore is consistant or reasonably written.

[Feanoro]

I do love the recurring strawman in this forum: "Not mass murdering Alliance is submitting to them! Honor bad!"

[Whitedragon]

Perenolde changed side because he was too weak. Like Italy, her prefers joining enemy to dying. If he didn't betray, his nation would be slaughtered and Horde would still get to Lordaeron.

That is literally just an assumption by you. The characters in the book make mention on how easy it would be to hold the mountain passes from enemy forces. As a good example as to why this is true, Trollbane later in the book did managed to cut the horde army off from its reinforcements with a small brigade of men in a land his people couldn't have been more familiar with then the natives. Nothing indicates that the nation was so worthless that they didn't have the man power to hold the Horde back long enough for the Allaince to box them in, the biggest problem was that Perenold didn't value/care for the Alliance or the other nations, and thought he could gain power if the Horde did win, and knowing that Lordaeron was mostly defenseless he made a gamble that they would size the capitol city and win the war, as we see this bit him in the bum very badly.

[Maxilian]

The Horde is striclty superior to the Alliance, on a lot of point.

- Orc, Troll and Tauren warrior totally crush the little footmen and other alliance soldier. Even elite dwarf warrior or the feral worgen, while strong, can compete.

- Same with magic, Blood elve and Nightborne dominate the other race on this subject.

- And finally, it's the same with tech. While less reliable, Goblin technology show more prowess than gnome tech when related to warfare. Draenei tech is good but not focused on war on the contrary to the maghar tech, which is totally focused on war and decimate Allaince rank (Iron star for example)


The only exception to this rule is the Alliance heroes, Aka Varian, Furion, Tyrande, Jaina who often change the tide of battle and are made OP. They are a necessity to keep balance and help the weakest faction to win against the strongest, as it has always been since War2

So Horde has might, magic and tech, but lose due to plot and very strong Alliance heroes

I may not word it that way, but is true.

Though the Gnome tech have shown certain power over the Goblin Tech when we saw Mechatorque vs Galliwix, but still true that the Horde have better warfare tech than the Alliance

[Whitedragon]

No Alliance doesn't have the manpower that was the reason why they had to retreat from Dazar'Alor. Also people are overetimating the power of Vindicar as it only was able to make a hole to enter Antorus. It's not designed to oblibertate cities.
Sd for Velen he was only seen using protection shields which is something that Talanji also can.

In lore most of the Main horde races are supposed to be relatively small in number compared to the Alliance races (some of them being in shambles numbers wise), that's why you occasionally see people wonder where the new new new army of orcs or bloodelves came from when we keep seeing them show up.

This was somewhat fixed with the allied races given to the Horde boosting population numbers, but even then, without solid numbers I would still lean more Alliance side as it goes for population.

Some people will say "well In the Cinematic gen says "we will be sending the farmers next" so the Alliance is running out", to which I reply okay, and most of the horde had to have been doing this for a lot longer. You cant tell me that the bloodelves, trolls, Orcs, goblins, or even tauren are sitting on anything other then young conscripted troops by now, with a civilian population entirely consisting of the wounded, crippled, and very old...

Admittedly Blizzard never seems to care much for actual populations and sustainability, or things like the logistics, production, and supplies needed to fuel a races that is even just barely scraping by... That's why I'm betting that the Alliance is going to get toughs Jinyu/Fish guys we got to see at blizzcon as an Allied race, who where stated to be beyond regrowth, and we will see them... EVERYWHERE....

[tripleh]

The narrative team /Danuser and Alex hold things back. They can't really tell a good story that keeps players immersed. BFA is proof of that.

[seleri]

Alliance wins, no contest. Anyone that thinks otherwise isn't paying attention or is blinded by a tremendous bias.

The draenei alone could potentially conquer Azeroth if they really wanted to and weren't restrained by out of game things like "the Vindicaar wouldn't make the story interesting, so we're not going to use it". They've been around two and a half times longer than the oldest elves and have the magical prowess that comes with that. Their technology is as strong or stronger than goblin/gnomish technology with none of the drawbacks - lightforged warframes were unstoppable killing machines on Argus but they had to be nerfed once lightforged became a playable race and entered the faction conflict. If they could convince some naaru to aide them (and considering AU Draenor, there's a decent chance they could) it would be even easier.

Worst case scenario, Sylvanas pulls ridiculous amounts of blight out of her ass and blights the whole world so no one wins, but in no reasonable scenario as things are right now does the Horde win.

[TheRevenantHero]

Alliance wins, no contest. Anyone that thinks otherwise isn't paying attention or is blinded by a tremendous bias.

The draenei alone could potentially conquer Azeroth if they really wanted to and weren't restrained by out of game things like "the Vindicaar wouldn't make the story interesting, so we're not going to use it". They've been around two and a half times longer than the oldest elves and have the magical prowess that comes with that. Their technology is as strong or stronger than goblin/gnomish technology with none of the drawbacks - lightforged warframes were unstoppable killing machines on Argus but they had to be nerfed once lightforged became a playable race and entered the faction conflict. If they could convince some naaru to aide them (and considering AU Draenor, there's a decent chance they could) it would be even easier.

Worst case scenario, Sylvanas pulls ridiculous amounts of blight out of her ass and blights the whole world so no one wins, but in no reasonable scenario as things are right now does the Horde win.

But the draenei have suffered heavy losses in Legion. Their numbers have dwindled significantly. If both sides used all their resources, the Mag'har could build another massive siege weapon and blow the Vindicaar out of the sky. The warframes are definitely not unstoppable. if the Horde was unified they would win through factors like sheer numbers and magical prowess in the case of the Nightborne and Sin'dorei. Sure the draenei have been around longer bu the vast majority of their powerful spellcasters had become the Man'ari.

[seleri]

But the draenei have suffered heavy losses in Legion. Their numbers have dwindled significantly. If both sides used all their resources, the Mag'har could build another massive siege weapon and blow the Vindicaar out of the sky. The warframes are definitely not unstoppable. if the Horde was unified they would win through factors like sheer numbers and magical prowess in the case of the Nightborne and Sin'dorei. Sure the draenei have been around longer bu the vast majority of their powerful spellcasters had become the Man'ari.

No more losses than anyone else.

There is absolutely no evidence the mag'har could build a weapon powerful enough to shoot the Vindicaar out of orbit or even out of the sky. The huge cannon we saw in WoD shot out iron stars that traveled close to the ground. The tech clearly didn't help them against Yrel's army in AU Draenor. Goblins have a better chance of doing something like that (since that's where the Iron Horde got their tech from to begin with) and the only thing we've ever seen from them that might be capable is the cannon in Azshara, which we don't even know works.

Nothing suggests nightborne have any more magical prowess than draenei. In fact, we haven't seen any of the nightborne that allied with the Horde do anything very impressive and we have no idea what kind of power they have now that they don't have the Nightwell. Oculeth's teleportation is the best we've seen and it's on par with Jaina's mass teleporting.

Similar case with blood elves, but they do have the Sunwell to help them out. So they might be able to put up the Ban'dinoriel to protect Silvermoon at least.

And again, this is all just to counter the draenei. The Alliance also have the other races plus Malfurion, Tyrande, Jaina, and Alleria which are forces to be reckoned with on their own.

This is why the faction war is the worst part of WoW's lore. It can never be truly won or lost for gameplay reasons so it has to stay a stalemate even though it should be incredibly lopsided.

[TheRevenantHero]

No more losses than anyone else.

There is absolutely no evidence the mag'har could build a weapon powerful enough to shoot the Vindicaar out of orbit or even out of the sky. The huge cannon we saw in WoD shot out iron stars that traveled close to the ground. The tech clearly didn't help them against Yrel's army in AU Draenor. Goblins have a better chance of doing something like that (since that's where the Iron Horde got their tech from to begin with) and the only thing we've ever seen from them that might be capable is the cannon in Azshara, which we don't even know works.

Nothing suggests nightborne have any more magical prowess than draenei. In fact, we haven't seen any of the nightborne that allied with the Horde do anything very impressive and we have no idea what kind of power they have now that they don't have the Nightwell. Oculeth's teleportation is the best we've seen and it's on par with Jaina's mass teleporting.

Similar case with blood elves, but they do have the Sunwell to help them out. So they might be able to put up the Ban'dinoriel to protect Silvermoon at least.

And again, this is all just to counter the draenei. The Alliance also have the other races plus Malfurion, Tyrande, Jaina, and Alleria which are forces to be reckoned with on their own.

This is why the faction war is the worst part of WoW's lore. It can never be truly won or lost for gameplay reasons so it has to stay a stalemate even though it should be incredibly lopsided.

Ah ok. So Oculeth using his magic to literally travel back in time isn't impressive. And my point was that a UNIFIED Horde could defeat the Alliance. Which means the goblins working with the mag'har. As far as the lore characters you mentioned, it just takes one dedicated person to kill them. Malfurion was merc'd by an axe from Saurfang. But it's very clear that you have Alliance bias so there's literally no point debating this further with you.

[InTheEnd]

Didn't some lore enthusiast claim that the Alliance has the far bigger army at its disposal? Also, there are more key Alliance heroes than key Horde heroes.

[seleri]

Ah ok. So Oculeth using his magic to literally travel back in time isn't impressive. And my point was that a UNIFIED Horde could defeat the Alliance. Which means the goblins working with the mag'har. As far as the lore characters you mentioned, it just takes one dedicated person to kill them. Malfurion was merc'd by an axe from Saurfang. But it's very clear that you have Alliance bias so there's literally no point debating this further with you.

I play both sides, but actually play Horde more, especially in BfA. There's no bias, it's just the facts the game has presented.

Oculeth needed help from the bronze dragonflight with the Vision of Time to go to AU Draenor. On his own, he's really good with portals/teleportation but still seems to need coordinates or some kind of anchor for really complicated stuff.

Again, we have no idea what the goblins+mag'har may be capable of against something like the Vindicaar because they've never had to deal with something like the Vindicaar before. We know they have anti-air that can take out gyrocopters but that isn't saying much considering the Vindicaar was able to shield itself from Legion artillery.

Malfurion got hit by one of the Horde's most skilled warriors while he was fighting Sylvanas, who is one of the Horde's most powerful characters (potentially even the most powerful character the Horde has now).

The Alliance have groups of people attuned with and specializing in using the literal forces of creation (void elves and lightforged). They have arcanists that are at least as skilled, if not more skilled, than those the Horde have. With gnomes+dark iron they have technology that's as good or better than goblin+mag'har, plus they have incredibly advanced draenei technology. Even their shaman, something that is iconic in the Horde, seem to be as good, not to mention more varied and able to do stuff we haven't seen Horde shaman doing (Kul Tiran tidesages blessing the ships).

The one thing the Horde has going for it is the blight which is deadly but we have no idea how much they have since they lost the Undercity and have been using copious amounts in Darkshore. Not to mention, Jaina can apparently neutralize it by freezing it at least for a little while. At best, if the Alliance was really stupid, Sylvanas could probably make sure everyone loses/dies, but there's no reasonable scenario in which the Horde outright wins.

[sam86]

it was hinted strongly that alliance would win vs horde if alliance is united as horde, Stormwind alone has more ppl in it than entire horde capitals combined
but that info is very outdated, because it made clear that alliance is not united, and nelfs won't give a f8ck about stormwind attack and won't help or vice versa, not to mention alliance frontline would be f8cked by the far stronger horde one (if they keep their bloodlust) etc
in term of sheer numbers alliance win easily, in term of strength horde win easily, in full out war both side problems is more in themselves than in their enemies (alliance may attack each other before horde, horde may lose themselves in bloodlust and attack anything on sight, etc), but again if not clear: that info is outdated

in BFA we have the lost honor video show clearly that Sylvanas was f8cking alliance back and forth, which doesn't make sense when u check in-game where she didn't win anything and at best made a stalemate (Undercity) or just flat out lost everything after a coward backhand attack on Teldrassil, but since i'd say cinematic > anything else, the last official word is Sylvanas is winning and putting alliance in very bad position
So I'd say united horde would win vs alliance, how no f8cking clue, but seems so, if horde backup sylvanas alliance would run out of even farmers to fight