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  1. #201
    Excuse me. Why are we trying to find out if it was a Genoside or not? What are we trying to prove here? I am confused.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Be pedantic over it if you will I don't really care, She says there are far too few left and sylvanas committed genocide, you don't need a percentage to know the intention of these words.
    Yes far too few elsewhere in Azeroth, while being in Stormwind, with the largest group of her people. It doesnt refer to Stormwind.

    if you are in a place where something has the highest number and the use "elsewhere" you dont inlude the place you are already in.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-03-30 at 10:43 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Excuse me. Why are we trying to find out if it was a Genoside or not? What are we trying to prove here? I am confused.
    It's not about debating whether it's genocide or not, it's about the extent of the damage to the population. Scroll up and check the bits we've written on how we're interpreting the text.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #204
    Ok but how is that gonna affect the Night Elves's power?

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Ok but how is that gonna affect the Night Elves's power?
    It doesn't. I don't think any of us three disagree regarding the night elves' military power. It was about the state of their population and society.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Ok but how is that gonna affect the Night Elves's power?
    It is about the cultural impact, what such a mass slaughter could cause in their society. And depending on the loss the bigger it is, the bigger the change can be.

  7. #207
    The Lightbringer Xlightning's Avatar
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    She's not that strong.

    Anyway, WoW lore was good from I wanna say, WC1 to WotLK(?), after that there's way too many novels, lore events inside WoW, retcons, etc. Power levels are all over the place. I had hope with the Chronicles volumes but even them are all over the place. I love complex lore but once you start with prequels, interquels, sequels, retcons, paralel Universes and all that, sooner or later it will go to shit. Just watch were the lore goes for fun and don't overthink it. That's what I am doing.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is about the cultural impact, what such a mass slaughter could cause in their society. And depending on the loss the bigger it is, the bigger the change can be.
    What do you mean by Cultural Impact? Do you mean like forcing the Night Elves to change their culture or something else?

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    What do you mean by Cultural Impact? Do you mean like forcing the Night Elves to change their culture or something else?
    Not forcing to change their culture, but what it might do to them, they were displayed as wise etc. lorewise the question is will this harden them, will they be vengeful etc.

    The high elves changed dramatically, the night elves could be shaken up as well, take tyrande outright discarding Alliance interest for vengeance, Maiev and Shandris agreeing with her, it could change their entire Alliance dynamics down the road.

  10. #210
    I wonder if Tyrande could do the same to let's say Orgrimmar trying to Genocide the Forsaken with an Eye for an Eye Tactic. Would that also make a cultural impact that might make Sylvannas realise that trying to start a war isn't a good idea when she wants to avoid going back to the Void.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    I wonder if Tyrande could do the same to let's say Orgrimmar trying to Genocide the Forsaken with an Eye for an Eye Tactic. .
    Why limit it to the forsaken I could easily see her trying to drive out every last horde presence from all of Kalimdor including Tauren, Trolls and Goblins.

    Would that also make a cultural impact that might make Sylvannas realise that trying to start a war isn't a good idea when she wants to avoid going back to the Void
    The screecher is utterly lost at this point. And she doesn't want to go back into the shadowlands, it is why the val'kyr could get her out of there they have link to that realm, not the void.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2019-03-30 at 11:10 PM.

  12. #212
    It would make an interesting story if let's say for example a same scenario as MOP happens but this time Tyrande and Malfurion wants to dismantle and exile the Horde from Kalimdor instead of stopping in SoO.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    It would make an interesting story if let's say for example a same scenario as MOP happens but this time Tyrande and Malfurion wants to dismantle and exile the Horde from Kalimdor instead of stopping in SoO.
    Precisely and what would their reaction be if Anduin says nope we are not going to do that, the more devastating this blow has been the night elves, the more likely it is the night elves finally have a chance to crawl out of the humans shadow, because blizzard can't really beat them down anymore there is hardly anything left to loose at this point after all.

    We all know the human narrative Jaina and Anduin are perfect indicators and it won't fly with the current night elves.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    I wonder if Tyrande could do the same to let's say Orgrimmar trying to Genocide the Forsaken with an Eye for an Eye Tactic. Would that also make a cultural impact that might make Sylvannas realise that trying to start a war isn't a good idea when she wants to avoid going back to the Void.
    I don't know man, she considers killing 3 random grunts occupying darkshore as "VENGEANCE", so let's not get carried away.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    No, we mean any damn thing we can actuallly see in-game, this silly "You'll only be happy when the Horde is gone"-strawman (I mean, who will on a random whim stir up yet another war if the Horde is gone?) is getting pretty ragged by now...

    Look at Ashenvale, for instance, if you don't read the books, you'd have completely missed that the Night elves (Aided by wild god empowered Varian Wrynn and a bunch of Worgen) retook Ashenvale after the events in the Cataclysm pre-patch, because it was never shown in-game, Ashenvale was chock-full of Orcs from patch 4.0 to 8.0.
    Thank you, this is a great reply.

    It's a long standing thing that Blizz only tells Alliance about victories of any kind or scope, usually in a book or obscure manner, while not remotely updating the game to SHOW that victory. Meanwhile, Alliance is definitely shown Horde victories, complete with marching bands, elephants, and skywriters.



    As to what impact this will have on NElves, simple. They're thrown a bone with the warfront, the pointless little cosmetic option, and stuffed into SW to be forgotten until the next time the Horde needs a punching bag. They have been completely and utterly ruined from what they were in WC3, the writers enjoyed it, and there will be no recovery. "This will harden them!" is a bit silly, when you're talking about people who reshaped their entire society into guarding against the Legion, to the point that fel Orcs like real Grom feared them. They already should have been ass kickers and ball breakers.

    Instead they were stuffed into the Alliance (understandable from a software dev perspective during original WoW development), which has turned into the blue Horde, with a human warchief, rather than a group of allies. Hell, you see more discussion between Horde leaders than you ever do Alliance. NElves were more or less ignored until Cata*, when they were somehow soundly trounced in every zone they owned and outright ignored by their useless allies. Malfurion returned, which should have been a huge moment, only to stand in a corner of Darkshore flapping his arms at a tornado for years. In MoP, the leader of a millennia old military-oriented society was schooled like a little girl on strategy and tactics. Legion looked hopeful, but no huge "revisiting our lands lost in antiquity" to rip them back from the Legion. No huge push to destroy the enemy that inspired their entire societal purpose, that would interfere with Velen sniveling over his mate** and son. Meanwhile, the Horde sobbed its eyes out at all the NElf content, right up until they got Nightborne and with it, a beautiful ancient Night Elf city we'd anticipated since WC3, complete with blaming that loss on Tyrande.

    Now the devs have a built in excuse not to show WC3 NElves, "oh their numbers are too low". Sure, that never matters when The Plot Demands It, like three ships of Orcs becoming a superpower, but it gives them all the reply they've needed for years to answer NElf fans asking why the fuck they're so passive in WoW. If anything comes but maintaining the new status quo, it will be further defeats. Hell, I can see a "new and exciting" (sarcasm, for any blues trolling here for ideas) NElf only strain of blight just for starters. Even then, we can all see the writing on the wall about how far this new cosmetic abomination will go. Anduin Fauntleroy will explain to NElves that the Horde just needs fruit baskets and hugs, and vengeance is bad. Bend over and take it, that's the Alliance way!




    * To be fair, there wasn't any emphasis on any race from Classic through Wrath, other than Orcs "going home" in TBC.

    **Blizz, the term is "wife". "Mate" is for animals.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2019-03-31 at 01:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    No I mean I doubt they are on the Blod elven decimation level.
    Wut? Have you played the Alliance scenario in WoT? Almost the entire city wiped out? Close to 10k citizens? More killed in Darkshore, Cenarion Hold gone, too...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    I don't know man, Stephen Danuser considers killing 3 random grunts occupying darkshore as "VENGEANCE", so let's not get carried away.
    Here, fixed that for ya.

    I'd rather see this as "vengeance light"

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Wut? Have you played the Alliance scenario in WoT? Almost the entire city wiped out? Close to 10k citizens? More killed in Darkshore, Cenarion Hold gone, too...
    Not saying it wasnt a heavy blow, but nowhere does it say its the same as the BE when the Scourge invaded, which was 90 percent loss.
    Unless Blizz gives a specific number like they gave with the Scourge invasion which means saying they suffered the exact same ammount is headcanon.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-03-31 at 12:02 PM.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Not saying it wasnt a heavy blow, but nowhere does it say its the same as the BE when the Scourge invaded, which was 90 percent loss.
    Unless Blizz gives a specific number like they gave with the Scourge invasion which means saying they suffered the exact same ammount is headcanon.
    Whatever, you cannot claim it isn't either for the exact same reason. Silvermoon still stands, Teldrassil doesn't..., belves still have a capital, nelves do not.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Whatever, you cannot claim it isn't either for the exact same reason. Silvermoon still stands, Teldrassil doesn't..., belves still have a capital, nelves do not.
    What are you talking about? What does the state of the BE now have to do with the state just after the Scourge attack? We are comparing the Horde invasion with the Scourge one.

    We can compare the evacuation of the High elves to what happened in the War of the thorns, where the evacuation actually was more successful then the high elven one, mainly due to Stormwind being a safer shelter.

    Like Sylvanas before him, Belo'vir, unnerved, came to acknowledge that defending Silvermoon was impossible. The grand magister tasked Archmage Rommath with the evacuation of the city, instructing him to transport as many elves as he could to the safety of Quel'Danas. Accompanied by Liadrin's apprentice, Galell, several ships (filled mostly with evacuated children) took sail from the port, hoping to find safe refuge with the Wildhammer clan, though were attacked and destroyed by the Scourge's gargoyles. Most of the children drowned; the survivors were forced ashore, most of whom were also slain.[11]

  20. #220
    Malfurion is a much better example of nerfed character. I mean, lore wise he could have solo the Horde in Darkshore.

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