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  1. #1581
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Flakker now empties the entire magazine and damage reduced by 33%, Hex damage reduced by 70%, Lyuda nerfed, Butcher nerfed
    Just to keep the bullshit in check.

    Flakker magazine is now 1 bullet. Hex direct damage is reduced by 70%, damage over time portion unchanged. Lyuda fixed, Butcher nerfed.


    I tried out Slaughter Shaft M3 with Moze after nerf - took 18 minutes total to complete all 5 rounds. Up from the usual ~15-16. Oh noes.

  2. #1582
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Just to keep the bullshit in check.

    Flakker magazine is now 1 bullet. Hex direct damage is reduced by 70%, damage over time portion unchanged. Lyuda fixed, Butcher nerfed.


    I tried out Slaughter Shaft M3 with Moze after nerf - took 18 minutes total to complete all 5 rounds. Up from the usual ~15-16. Oh noes.
    Just don't see a point, it's not an online game, if people want to do OP stuff let them. If people want to co-op they can discuss what they want to use and what they don't.

  3. #1583
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Just don't see a point, it's not an online game, if people want to do OP stuff let them. If people want to co-op they can discuss what they want to use and what they don't.
    -- OR --

    just balance things?

    If you want total godmode oneshotting everything you can just fire up a trainer... or play Moze.

  4. #1584
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    -- OR --

    just balance things?

    If you want total godmode oneshotting everything you can just fire up a trainer... or play Moze.
    Since when did balancing things become something in a single player/co-op game though? seems like a vast waste of resources unless it's flat out bugged.

    Guess there's always the option to just NOT update, but you have to at some point.

  5. #1585
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Since when did balancing things become something in a single player/co-op game though? seems like a vast waste of resources unless it's flat out bugged.

    Guess there's always the option to just NOT update, but you have to at some point.
    Since forever? They did this all the way back from BL1, not sure how come you are under impression that this is some sort of unique BL3 thing.

    They did the same for BL2 and what not.

    It's par the course, they always do a ton of fixes and changes first couple of months, then they slowly drop the support as DLCs hit and game matures.

  6. #1586
    Over 9000! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Since when did balancing things become something in a single player/co-op game though? seems like a vast waste of resources unless it's flat out bugged.
    Since forever? As long as single player games have had patches there have been balance tweaks to maintain the pace of power/content the developers want.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #1587
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Since forever? They did this all the way back from BL1, not sure how come you are under impression that this is some sort of unique BL3 thing.

    They did the same for BL2 and what not.

    It's par the course, they always do a ton of fixes and changes first couple of months, then they slowly drop the support as DLCs hit and game matures.
    Just seems weird, I came in to BL2 late honestly so I didn't know they balanced before, but most of the SP/Co-op games I play don't touch things like that and just give updates. Balancing is for Multiplayer games where it matters.

  8. #1588
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Just seems weird, I came in to BL2 late honestly so I didn't know they balanced before, but most of the SP/Co-op games I play don't touch things like that and just give updates. Balancing is for Multiplayer games where it matters.
    They balanced A TON. It's the usual, they balance a lot in the beginning. After half a year or so it slows down and at some point they just abandon it.

  9. #1589
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Since when did balancing things become something in a single player/co-op game though? seems like a vast waste of resources unless it's flat out bugged.

    Guess there's always the option to just NOT update, but you have to at some point.
    This argument is such nonsense. Games should aim to be balanced so that multiple avenues of approach offer a relatively equal difficulty of gameplay; ESPECIALLY in cases where multiplayer is an option. Having to arbitrarily limit your own power level in order to provide a certain level of challenge rather than playing the best you can within the scope offered by the game offer significantly different levels of fulfillment.

  10. #1590
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    They balanced A TON. It's the usual, they balance a lot in the beginning. After half a year or so it slows down and at some point they just abandon it.
    The more you know. Still think it's odd in a single player/co-op game, but it's their game to do what they want with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    This argument is such nonsense. Games should aim to be balanced so that multiple avenues of approach offer a relatively equal difficulty of gameplay; ESPECIALLY in cases where multiplayer is an option. Having to arbitrarily limit your own power level in order to provide a certain level of challenge rather than playing the best you can within the scope offered by the game offer significantly different levels of fulfillment.
    You think it's nonsense. That's fine, but I think it's extremely weird to balance a game like this. It's two different opinions.

  11. #1591
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    The more you know. Still think it's odd in a single player/co-op game, but it's their game to do what they want with.
    Well I mean, even Single Player game, like even without Co-Op... if you have a specific build or couple of weapons that are WAY more powerful than the rest, then what's the point in the rest?

    It's a simple common sense really - what's the point to have bazilllion guns if specific 4-5 of them are like hundreds % more powerful and effective? Everyone will just beeline to that and it will be pretty damn boring really.

    It's really still the case now - everyone and their mothers is playing Amara as melee with that Melee bonus Shotgun and everyone and their mothers are playing Moze as Hex/Flakker spam. Why even have other weapons/skill trees at all then?

    Things do need to be balanced to increase choices.

  12. #1592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Just seems weird, I came in to BL2 late honestly so I didn't know they balanced before, but most of the SP/Co-op games I play don't touch things like that and just give updates. Balancing is for Multiplayer games where it matters.
    It's so one build doesn't shine and everyone just funnels into that one specific buiild, when they went through this huge effort to try to give us multiple options and action skills. They want more than 1 build to be viable.

  13. #1593
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    It's so one build doesn't shine and everyone just funnels into that one specific buiild, when they went through this huge effort to try to give us multiple options and action skills.
    Pretty much.

  14. #1594
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Just seems weird, I came in to BL2 late honestly so I didn't know they balanced before, but most of the SP/Co-op games I play don't touch things like that and just give updates. Balancing is for Multiplayer games where it matters.
    IMO, the classes need to be balanced. Even in single player games, the classes should be relatively balanced for PvE when it comes to damage output. That is a 100% good thing and the best things the developer could spend their time improving. Once the meta is established it should also be relatively easy to do compared to actual bugs which may not be so straightforward to repair. IMHO, that is.

    Even single player games don't exist in a vacuum. Finding out you picked a terrible starting class that will never get better 40 hours into a single player game is not a good feeling and it should be something devs strive to prevent.

    I'm very happy with how BL3 has handled balance so far, and I hope they keep it up.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2019-10-17 at 07:00 PM.

  15. #1595
    Guess I'm just getting old, a lot of my single player/co-op gameplay comes from older consoles (ps2 and prior) and we just accepted when something was op and banned it (like oddjob in goldeneye)

  16. #1596
    Borderlands is kind of a unique multiplayer game in that it not only encourages me to play without other people, but to also kill my internet connection entirely while I do so.

    The degree the "good" legendaries are better DPS than the common legendaries isn't 25% or 40% it's more like 500-2000%+ better. Small buffs to weak weapons like that isn't going to make anything really usable. And the nerfs to the good weapons just means everyone's grind is going to take longer, which basically translates into Gearbox doesn't want me to be able to alt-tab and cruise the web while I play.
    Last edited by Very Tired; 2019-10-17 at 07:44 PM.

  17. #1597
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    Borderlands is kind of a unique multiplayer game in that it not only encourages me to play without other people, but to also kill my internet connection entirely while I do so.

    The degree the "good" legendaries are better DPS than the common legendaries isn't 25% or 40% it's more like 500-2000% better. Small buffs to weak weapons like that isn't going to make anything really usable. And the nerfs to the good weapons just means everyone's grind is going to take longer, which basically translates into Gearbox doesn't want me to be able to alt-tab and cruise the web while I play.
    I've noticed this mentioned, I think it is because different people have different play-styles. For me, I only play online, in a group, or in local co-op. So that might be the difference in our perspectives. From my perspective, the game, classes, weapons, ect should absolutely be balanced, and end game gearing options should be varied.

  18. #1598
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Just to keep the bullshit in check.

    Flakker magazine is now 1 bullet. Hex direct damage is reduced by 70%, damage over time portion unchanged. Lyuda fixed, Butcher nerfed.


    I tried out Slaughter Shaft M3 with Moze after nerf - took 18 minutes total to complete all 5 rounds. Up from the usual ~15-16. Oh noes.
    I quoted the patch notes which didn't mention that, nice try with the 'own' though.

    If Gearbox wanted people to use different builds then guns isn't the top issue. Rakks suck. Pets suck. Iron Bear still sucks despite the HP buffs which wasn't it's issue really. There needs to be better variety of Anointments. Sniper Rifles need to not suck besides the Lyuda. Unique weapons like the sawblade gun are just awful. Grenades are lackluster outside of Stormfront and Singularity now.

    Mayhem Mode is terribly designed.

    Now you can argue successfully that changing guns is easier and via a hotfix- but I don't think that's a healthy way of designing games if you are playing a different game online than you are offline.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  19. #1599
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    I quoted the patch notes which didn't mention that, nice try with the 'own' though.

    If Gearbox wanted people to use different builds then guns isn't the top issue. Rakks suck. Pets suck. Iron Bear still sucks despite the HP buffs which wasn't it's issue really. There needs to be better variety of Anointments. Sniper Rifles need to not suck besides the Lyuda. Unique weapons like the sawblade gun are just awful. Grenades are lackluster outside of Stormfront and Singularity now.

    Mayhem Mode is terribly designed.

    Now you can argue successfully that changing guns is easier and via a hotfix- but I don't think that's a healthy way of designing games if you are playing a different game online than you are offline.
    Guns are part of the issue. Several guns and grenades are so powerful they are pretty much mandatory (unless you like doing less damage). It's reality. Lyuda and Flakker were completely nobrainer choices far superior to almost everything... heck, I'd say they are still over the top.

  20. #1600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Just don't see a point, it's not an online game, if people want to do OP stuff let them. If people want to co-op they can discuss what they want to use and what they don't.
    Its an online game though. It's designed around MP, which has primarily been online for the last 10 years.

    The hotfixes really on apply to those who play endgame. Do people playing for the campaign really care?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Guns are part of the issue. Several guns and grenades are so powerful they are pretty much mandatory (unless you like doing less damage). It's reality. Lyuda and Flakker were completely nobrainer choices far superior to almost everything... heck, I'd say they are still over the top.
    They make, well made, everything else feel useless. That and they were broke.

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