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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Counterpoint:
    When has the Night Elven magecraft been shown to be special? Horde fans are right in that lore states Blood Elven is superior if only because the highborne remained stagnant for centuries.

    When has the Void Elf mageraft been shown to be anything special? They are very good at Void, I dont doubt that. But using the void is not being a mage in the same way that using fel isnt being a mage either.

    Blizzard has made it rather clear that as far as magecraft is concerned there are two primary races that, as a whole, are damned good at it: Draenei, and Blood Elves. Neither of them have any particularly skilled individuals: The alliance has all of those.

    But the argument that Horde denies Alliance mages? That's just whining and looking for something to complain about. They point out that night elves and void elves are nothing special in the regard because its true. If you want to blame anyone, blame blizzard for not putting more focus on the Draenei, rather than their off hand remark that they're skilled mages but no real show of it.
    Are they correct though? This wasn't an argument about the sin'dorei mages being more powerful than the kaldorei ones. Nor about them being better or worse, at first, but ofc it descended to that.


    Those arguments have their usual flaws. In my opinion, sin'dorei mages are powerful and knowledgeable, but they don't have a patch on 10,000 year old kaldorei/shal'dorei arcane users in terms of knowledge and skill. Power is so hard to measure. For starters your shen'dralar mage has been both scrying on the world and studying arcane for 10,000 years, with no knowledge gap or loss in knowledge that the long vigil night elves and the high elves that came from them had. The same would be for the nightborne you meet in Suramar and the Moonguard, minus the scrying bit. The shend'ralar scrying means it is quite possible whatever new advances made could mean.


    Bottom line is that forums like these, thrive on arguments lke this, and to be fair, the writers don't really give any specific indication of who's right, nor do they need to. But we can gather what the lore says and shows about each, and give a rough guess where they might stand. We could be spot on or way off. I wonder if logic determines how these guys perform when they meet? Or is it narrative?

    Imo, it is narrative, so it really doesn't matter how amazing the lore of htem has been or how they look, all that talk about sin'dorei this, elven this, and human mages have the most powerful visible portrayal in Warcraft. If I were to go by that, i'd say sin'dorei mages are not a patch on them, because of what the game has shown , but I won't say that, because the lore gives foundation for a very high level of sn'dorei and thalassian mastery that the game hasn't shown. And it gives even more to the kaldorei arcane users too, and while it has shown some of this with the likes of Farondis, the Moonguard and the shal'dorei, it hasn't shown with everyone, but it has said.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-03-30 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Mary Sues aren't "powerful characters" that don't necessarily deserve their power, Mary Sues are characters that meet a loose criteria of symptoms that make them a bad character in general. Usually the center piece being that they're asserted (through dialogue and narrative) as being perfect, despite clearly not being perfect.

    Talanji is leaning a bit into the "I'm perfect" territory via being right about everything and being about as morally complex as a rock, but I don't think she's much of a Mary Sue. At worst I think she's a bit of a bland character who hasn't been utilized well, as we haven't seen her face any real adversity other than steamrolling through minor threats/bad guys and one little scene where she goes FADDA NO... UR DEAD... :,(

    We'll see how she's handled now that she's queen of the Zandalari, but chances are we won't see a whole much more of her before BFA ends and she's never ever heard of again.

    Her worst offense is being shallow, but not so much she's Anduin levels of Mary Sue.
    True! But Anduin hot and she not (that's also part of your point I guess).

  3. #63
    Where not humans the biggest potential in wizardry accordingly to chronicles?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by fathom81 View Post
    Where not humans the biggest potential in wizardry accordingly to chronicles?
    So good that they single handidly won the troll wars for the high elves.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    And you make assertions and draw conclusions about them that aren't factual, as if to say that there is no possibility any of these mages are anything or could be anything - because their city fell to ruin. This is what you use as some sort of evidence that they aren't good mages.. or "aren't as good as i think"
    Which facts do I ignore? That they teach outdated methods?Being even further decimated during classic, being driven from their city by a horde force with many of them dying in the process, being cut off from all they gathered over the millennia wandering the wilds for years scattered and alone, suffering from withdrawal I never said they aren't good mages what I said is they aren't top tier mages being above the rest, which is something you personally want them to be.

    Now you can bring facts hard facts that distinguish them as super amazing mages within a margin of the last 1.000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    So good that they single handidly won the troll wars for the high elves.
    They do not, they unleash their super decimating spell together with the elves, not on their own

    Quote Originally Posted by fathom81 View Post
    Where not humans the biggest potential in wizardry accordingly to chronicles?
    No it isn't stated, just that they have a very good affinity for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Horde fans, simple. Everyone but horde alligned folk are rubbish or second grade.
    Foolish thing to say the elves in general are good but most certainly not the best magic users on the planet, heck canon sources outright say elves and humans are pretty much equal in terms of power.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2019-03-30 at 06:48 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I would like them to give Rommath a chance to show off. He should be able to at least hold Jaina down on a duel.
    Considering that Jaina must be now second only to Azshara and mayyybe Dadgar in terms of strength, I doubt Rommath has much of a chance. We've seen no Mage pull half the shit she pulled in BDA within living memory.

  7. #67
    Azshara should still be able to effortlessly stomp Jaina and Khadgar. I refuse to believe that anything remotely Human can even contend with the power of the Champion of N'zoth, Queen of the Naga, and former Queen of the Kaldorei. There has to be a limit to Human Potential.
    The Void can be used to protect the world, not to destroy it. But as with any weapon or magic, one must learn to wield it correctly.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    There has to be a limit to Human Potential.
    There's no stopping the human potential! You'll all be wives and love interests to human male paladins. That's the fate Sylvanas saw.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Well Thalyssra is completely useless, she couldn't even hold a candle to Jaina when we were confronted with her in Stormwind. Which suggests to me that the Nightborne's magic must have stagnated over 10,000 years of isolation.

    The Horde's only hope for a decent mage lies with Rommath. But Blizzard won't let him do anything for fear it'd take spotlight away from their precious Jaina.
    I believe the circumstances if their meeting was special, as Thallysra and her co. tried to free 2 prisoners and escape with them from StormfukinWind city as fast as possible. She could have start a battle but that would have been pointless since it only allows the reinforcement to capture them. Otherwise i believe Thallysra is equal to jaina or superior thanks to her experience.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Which facts do I ignore? That they teach outdated methods?Being even further decimated during classic, being driven from their city by a horde force with many of them dying in the process, being cut off from all they gathered over the millennia wandering the wilds for years scattered and alone, suffering from withdrawal I never said they aren't good mages what I said is they aren't top tier mages being above the rest, which is something you personally want them to be.

    Now you can bring facts hard facts that distinguish them as super amazing mages within a margin of the last 1.000 years.

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    They do not, they unleash their super decimating spell together with the elves, not on their own



    No it isn't stated, just that they have a very good affinity for it.



    Foolish thing to say the elves in general are good but most certainly not the best magic users on the planet, heck canon sources outright say elves and humans are pretty much equal in terms of power.
    Humans learned magic and within, what was it? A decade? Obliterated the Trolls, something the high elves failed to do for centuries.

    And yes, having a good affinity for it does more or less imply a stronger potential. Chronicles outright stated that due to their heritage they naturally just better at magic. Why that doesn't imply to other titan origin races, who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    Azshara should still be able to effortlessly stomp Jaina and Khadgar. I refuse to believe that anything remotely Human can even contend with the power of the Champion of N'zoth, Queen of the Naga, and former Queen of the Kaldorei. There has to be a limit to Human Potential.
    Jaina teleported an entire armada, effortlessly, and Khadgar was so mighty that the strongest mage and warlock in night elf history needed Dadgar's magic because his own simply wasnt enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trikszter View Post
    I believe the circumstances if their meeting was special, as Thallysra and her co. tried to free 2 prisoners and escape with them from StormfukinWind city as fast as possible. She could have start a battle but that would have been pointless since it only allows the reinforcement to capture them. Otherwise i believe Thallysra is equal to jaina or superior thanks to her experience.
    We've never seen how strong she is nor have any indication of how strong she'd be.

    Other than her well being gone which... isnt a point in her favor.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Trikszter View Post
    Blizzard have wrote a few great mages like Medivh, Khadgar and Jaina, but this is a privilige only for humans. There are other races with strong mage potential, like what nelf mages used to be. Azhara and Illidan were Heavy hitters comparable to the guardian power level Aegwynn, again a human.
    A draenei lives much longer Than other races so they could produce a few capable mages, yet We have seen No one since their arriving on Azeroth. And this is only alliance side. It was the Belfs who taught humans magic. Ok 90% of the races died thanks to the scourge, so only 2-4 truly great mages left including Kael’thas who was the last truly great magi of the belfs in lore since We have seen nothing from Rommath or the others that could be named as a feat.
    Blizz could have been introduced great mages with the Nightborne to the horde, but currently thallysra fails to match these expectations. Ellisand and her mates were Good ones, until We killed them all. Nightborne made Aluneth wonder about their city or whatever, and he thinks humans dont live long enough to become truly strong, yet so far We have seen nothing remarkable from them. The void elves showed More capacity in the warcampaign that most nborne or belf ever did. Its Not a problem, but it’s on alli side.
    On horde side We have No one with great potency. Pandaren could have been the answer for this since they exists since the nelfs but No.
    Please correct me if i’m wrong. Also sry for my bad english.
    Not reading through all of the posts, has anyone mentioned Millhouse Manastorm?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Humans learned magic and within, what was it? A decade? Obliterated the Trolls, something the high elves failed to do for centuries.
    Humans got handed thousands of years of knowledge and had to be bailed out once they were really on their own, because they were skirting the line, thus the Guardian system was created, humans did not obliterate the trolls alone that is the whole point without the elves they couldn't have done it.

    And yes, having a good affinity for it does more or less imply a stronger potential. Chronicles outright stated that due to their heritage they naturally just better at magic. Why that doesn't imply to other titan origin races, who knows.
    Humans and elves are equal in terms of magical aptitude.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Humans learned magic and within, what was it? A decade? Obliterated the Trolls, something the high elves failed to do for centuries.

    And yes, having a good affinity for it does more or less imply a stronger potential. Chronicles outright stated that due to their heritage they naturally just better at magic. Why that doesn't imply to other titan origin races, who knows.

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    Jaina teleported an entire armada, effortlessly, and Khadgar was so mighty that the strongest mage and warlock in night elf history needed Dadgar's magic because his own simply wasnt enough.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We've never seen how strong she is nor have any indication of how strong she'd be.

    Other than her well being gone which... isnt a point in her favor.
    Bring a First Arcanist under Elisande prety much enough for a pont. She prefered capable mages...

  14. #74
    Jaina teleported an entire armada, effortlessly, and Khadgar was so mighty that the strongest mage and warlock in night elf history needed Dadgar's magic because his own simply wasnt enough.
    Feats that have little relevance in the grand scheme of things. We haven't even interacted with Azshara to begin with aside from five seconds in Legion. Most of her story comes from the War of the Ancients, when she was much stronger than Mannoroth, possibly the most powerful demon serving under Archimonde, and only Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and Sargeras himself would prove to be her superiors. And that was before she joined N'zoth. Azshara lacks feats not because she's weak but because she is smart and prefers to work from the shadows. In the next patch, we will see the Queen in all her glory, of that I am certain.

    I might quit that game if Blizzard writes Jaina, a 40 years old wizard, as stronger than Azshara, one of the most ancient, powerful, and malevolent characters in the Warcraft universe. Instead, I hope that Jaina and Khadgar will not appear at all, and the final showdown will be between Azshara and various elven mages whose ancestry dates back to the Highborne of old (Umbric, Mordent, Thalyssra, Rommath, even Farondis).
    Last edited by Void Fallen; 2019-03-30 at 09:02 PM.
    The Void can be used to protect the world, not to destroy it. But as with any weapon or magic, one must learn to wield it correctly.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Humans got handed thousands of years of knowledge and had to be bailed out once they were really on their own, because they were skirting the line, thus the Guardian system was created, humans did not obliterate the trolls alone that is the whole point without the elves they couldn't have done it.



    Humans and elves are equal in terms of magical aptitude.
    They literally obliterated them with a magic hellstorm of fire and death.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    They literally obliterated them with a magic hellstorm of fire and death.
    Not by themselves the elven magi pooled their power in there as well according to chronicle.

  17. #77
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trikszter View Post
    I believe the circumstances if their meeting was special, as Thallysra and her co. tried to free 2 prisoners and escape with them from StormfukinWind city as fast as possible. She could have start a battle but that would have been pointless since it only allows the reinforcement to capture them. Otherwise i believe Thallysra is equal to jaina or superior thanks to her experience.
    The voice acting suggested genuine fear. I doubt her power is anywhere near Jaina's. Thus far she hasn't done anything near what Jaina did in Stormwind or Dazar'alor.

  18. #78
    It's stupid that Thalyssra can't just shit on Jaina and proves that the writers are truly biased towards Human characters. One of the Highborne of old, a veteran of the War of the Ancients, a Shal'dorei whose veins are overflowed with the Arcane, and an arcanist who has been using magic for thousands of years, is weaker than 40-yo-old Human who has been studying magic for less than three decades? Give me a break. I don't even like Thalyssra, in fact I hate her, but it's ridiculous that Jaina and Khadgar are written to be so strong.
    The Void can be used to protect the world, not to destroy it. But as with any weapon or magic, one must learn to wield it correctly.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    The voice acting suggested genuine fear. I doubt her power is anywhere near Jaina's. Thus far she hasn't done anything near what Jaina did in Stormwind or Dazar'alor.
    Except protecting boats from artillery fire XD

  20. #80
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    There's no stopping the human potential! You'll all be wives and love interests to human male paladins. That's the fate Sylvanas saw.
    But she didn't sought for Arthas and clam-blocked Jaina.

    Being more serious now the only limit they have currently is being banned in the fanclub of Illidan, Shamans, Druids and the void magic I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
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    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

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