Thread: MDI curiosity

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Tank variance could easily be solved if Blizzard decided to close the gap (whether it be by buffing or nerfing, or meeting somewhere in the middle) on tank DPS.
    Tbh I would use prot paladin as a point of balancing tank dps, it's decent, but not op. So basically nerf warrior and buff everyone else remaining: dk, monk, druid, dh to the paladin level. Then you would have the question which tank provides better utility.

    Warrior would still be strong with spell reflect cheese that would be on top of their damage (i.e. they should be nerfed to the point they're competitive without spell reflecting for dps, but not broken op as now competing with dps on damage, and still be able to get juicy spell reflects). Also providing battle shout, aoe stun, aoe fear, ability to break fear on himself, second stun single target if talented, etc.

    DK would have usual mass grip / combat rez / control undead.

    Monk has ring of peace, physical debuff, aoe stun, paralyze, teleport etc.

    DH has magic debuff, prison, silence sigil... still I think their defensive cds would need some work on top of it.

    Druid would have combat rez, stampeding roar, ursol's vortex, remove enrage, stun or typhoon. However I think frenzied regen needs a big buff for druids to be comparable to warrior / dk / paladin. Either reduce cd a lot, or increase the healed amount a lot. Otherwise it doesn't compare to ignore pain, light of the protector or dk healing (yes dks do most healing but also take most damage). Also make poison dispel work in bear form for guardians (you could leave it out for other specs for pvp reasons) so it's equal to monk / paladin.

    And paladin has bubble, bop, freedom, sac, lay on hands, extra interrupts, etc.

    So every tank has some utility, but the damage and survivability needs balancing. Druid / dh need survivability buff, nearly every tank needs a dps buff and warrior needs a nerf.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    So every tank has some utility, but the damage and survivability needs balancing. Druid / dh need survivability buff, nearly every tank needs a dps buff and warrior needs a nerf.
    This. But it's so hard to understand on Blizzard's end.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Tbh I would use prot paladin as a point of balancing tank dps, it's decent, but not op. So basically nerf warrior and buff everyone else remaining: dk, monk, druid, dh to the paladin level. Then you would have the question which tank provides better utility.

    Warrior would still be strong with spell reflect cheese that would be on top of their damage (i.e. they should be nerfed to the point they're competitive without spell reflecting for dps, but not broken op as now competing with dps on damage, and still be able to get juicy spell reflects). Also providing battle shout, aoe stun, aoe fear, ability to break fear on himself, second stun single target if talented, etc.

    DK would have usual mass grip / combat rez / control undead.

    Monk has ring of peace, physical debuff, aoe stun, paralyze, teleport etc.

    DH has magic debuff, prison, silence sigil... still I think their defensive cds would need some work on top of it.

    Druid would have combat rez, stampeding roar, ursol's vortex, remove enrage, stun or typhoon. However I think frenzied regen needs a big buff for druids to be comparable to warrior / dk / paladin. Either reduce cd a lot, or increase the healed amount a lot. Otherwise it doesn't compare to ignore pain, light of the protector or dk healing (yes dks do most healing but also take most damage). Also make poison dispel work in bear form for guardians (you could leave it out for other specs for pvp reasons) so it's equal to monk / paladin.

    And paladin has bubble, bop, freedom, sac, lay on hands, extra interrupts, etc.

    So every tank has some utility, but the damage and survivability needs balancing. Druid / dh need survivability buff, nearly every tank needs a dps buff and warrior needs a nerf.
    Yeah prot paladin DPS is actually pretty good, but completely overshadowed by warrior at the moment. If they just blew up prot warriors, people would suddenly realize that prot paladin does a really good amount of damage.

    Protection warriors have an amazing damage taken model to deal with basically every dungeon, which a lot of people don't actually realize. I don't mind a single tank being the best at DPS (one of them has to be), but when you account for the damage spell reflect does (which people don't see in damage meters), the picture being painted isn't exact.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by dragnipur View Post
    Will the warrior be the only class tanking this MDI?Last year was just DK this time is a warrior?Blizzard are not good in balance.
    Balance makes no difference at this level when we can log onto the tourney realm and have access to any gear combo we want.
    If classes are even 1% different you'd pick them because there's no reason not to


    I'm glad MMOc doesn't get to balance classes
    Last edited by Morg; 2019-04-01 at 12:14 AM.

  5. #25
    I think a lot of people are missing why they are taking warrior. On top of their dmg its also battle shout. Optimal team comp has a Warrior tank for the battle shout, a windwalker monk for their buff and two rogues for double shroud. The only thing really taken fro throughput is Resto Druid but even then its their own utility that put them in the meta.

    Going from "bring the player not the class" to "bring the class" is ultimately what caused this and even if they were to remove the utility from those currently being used now it would just give birth to another static set.

    Remove class buffs and remove shroud then you will see more diversity.
    Last edited by Malix Farwin; 2019-04-01 at 12:17 AM.

  6. #26
    For top players there will always be specific compositions. They will not use prot pala if prot war is just better. Sad fact is that that people follow them so everyone wants rdruid as healer even for low keys like +10.

    There will be never balance because of utility. If they want to balance things they need to remove buffs, shroud and make classes nearly equal that will never happen and its good.

    Its like in pvp there are tier 1 comps and those that are bad. Like i was playing ret/arcane/rdruid during legion at 2.5k+ mmr. Everything is playable in both pve and pvp until some point where compositions play big role.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Druitz View Post
    For top players there will always be specific compositions. They will not use prot pala if prot war is just better. Sad fact is that that people follow them so everyone wants rdruid as healer even for low keys like +10.

    There will be never balance because of utility. If they want to balance things they need to remove buffs, shroud and make classes nearly equal that will never happen and its good.

    Its like in pvp there are tier 1 comps and those that are bad. Like i was playing ret/arcane/rdruid during legion at 2.5k+ mmr. Everything is playable in both pve and pvp until some point where compositions play big role.
    I don't mind, and I doubt others mind if there's a specific composition. It's honestly expected and to expect that there isn't a meta is pretty silly. There will always be one at the top.

    However, they absolutely can balance this game better to where the possibility of having a different pick, or a 'comfort' pick is possible. Some of it's through throughput (whether it be healing or damage), while the other half is through utility alone. Numbers should be easier to balance, whereas balancing utility is a bit more difficult.

    The problem, at least in my eyes is when you see the exact same rigid composition (for the most part) through all of the dungeons currently in the game. There was very little variance in the MDI today, with very small deviations, and anytime somebody dared to change from the traditional meta, they generally lost. I doubt people would mind as much if you still saw mirror matches, but they were different mirrors on different maps. Essentially if the DPS/Healer/Tank position changed based on the map because of the utility one of them brought.

    If you look back at Legion there was a bit more variance in the meta in a world where you could potentially change out a single class between map pools. Warlocks were strong overall, but absolutely disgusting in dungeons they could abuse enslave demons in (Arcway/Cathedral). Likewise Mages were busted in dungeons where spell steal could be abused, most notably BRH. Another good example was Upper Karazhan, where a Protection Warrior might have been swapped in over a DK. The problem with Legion however was that the ability to swap wasn't allowed at the time, so people were stuck with a completely rigid composition.

    There are some problems that are pretty difficult for them to solve, mainly the difference between range and melee DPS. However throughput is something they can pick away at, while utility is something they absolutely have to sit down and think about.

    Always going to have an overall best composition, no denying that. Can things be closer? Absolutely. Can you make utility that's really strong and really wanted for particular dungeons? Yeah, they can and all the evidence you need of such utility lies with what they did with Rogues. Unfortunately for every other class in the game, they only did necessary utility with one class in the game.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    I think a lot of people are missing why they are taking warrior. On top of their dmg its also battle shout. Optimal team comp has a Warrior tank for the battle shout, a windwalker monk for their buff and two rogues for double shroud. The only thing really taken fro throughput is Resto Druid but even then its their own utility that put them in the meta.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morg View Post
    If classes are even 1% different you'd pick them because there's no reason not to
    I wouldn't mind if warrior had optimal utility and was taken because of that. Or even did 5% more dps than other tanks and was taken because of that. But as you saw on mdi warrior tank does literally 2-3 times more dps than any other tank, competing with dps classes, even the dps classes that were already picked into the comp for their superior dps.

    How can you even argue the difference is minimal?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Rentari played DK yesterday.
    Balance is good overall. Balance is not good for the 0,01% of the best players in a 5 man competitive setting.
    See, I don't buy that. The diversity of successful specs demonstrates how good or bad class/spec balance is. And there was almost no diversity. In every case where a double outlaw, ww, resto druid, war tank went up against a different composition they won. And that didn't even happen that often as most of the tournament was a mirror. The fact that they used two of the same spec consistently throughout the MDI is a sign that class balance is worse than it's ever been.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by dragnipur View Post
    If a team has only 1 rogue like Puolukka why aren't they considering using invisible potions?
    Because most groups are running 2 rogues for skips.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  11. #31
    I thought Xyronic did really well with casting for it being his first time. I'd take him over anyone but Sloot (guy makes me laugh, can't help it).

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! RoKPaNda's Avatar
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    I honestly didn't even know this was going on. It was fun to watch last time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Should have had Preach be a caster, with Adam Bay from FinalBoss
    Why Preach of all people? Considering he hates all things WoW at the moment I doubt he'd be interested in commentating a WoW event.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Should have had Preach be a caster, with Adam Bay from FinalBoss
    I think they were GREAT(loved the duo esp preach overall) for the world first raid cast. I'm not sure they'd be GREAT for MDI.
    If final boss put more effort into the M+ scene -maybe-.
    Preach would also have to... "brush up" on the high m+ scene to offer good commentary.

    P.S. Shout out to JB/Preach.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Should have had Preach be a caster, with Adam Bay from FinalBoss
    not sure if serious.
    Hi Sephurik

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragnipur View Post
    Will the warrior be the only class tanking this MDI?Last year was just DK this time is a warrior?Blizzard are not good in balance.
    balance does not matter
    when you are in the best of the best of the best
    one class could be 1% better then the other, and everyone will use it, because for this high of game, that 1% matters.

    other tanks are fine, just prot warrior is that bit ahead
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    just prot warrior is that bit ahead
    If we're talking raw aoe DPS prot warrior is not just ahead by "a bit" lmao. The last time a tank was that far ahead of the pack in DPS was Monk in MoP when they got hit with a static 10% damage nerf across the board. Survival is debatable but they are at the top there as well even if others match them. Their damage definitely needs nerfed regardless.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Should have had Preach be a caster, with Adam Bay from FinalBoss
    Dear god please not Adam Bay.

    Surely this is an April Fool's gag

    Also, who the hell spells curiosity with a q?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Druitz View Post
    There will be never balance because of utility. If they want to balance things they need to remove buffs, shroud and make classes nearly equal that will never happen and its good..
    That's not entirely true. the meta comp has no blood lust class, and are using drums for blood lust, which is a scroll you can buy.

    If invis pots were not sharing a cd with damage potions, that would probably help to make rogues mandatory.

    Right now only the monk and DH buffs have no other equivalent..

    And resto druids are there because they are the only healer with a battle rez and a team absolutely need one. If they didn't, all healers would have been mistweavers and no windwalker would have been there.

    Seems to me the problem is the lack of alternatives.. sure you have engineering brez, but that's not really the same.

    But I think the worst part of the MDI was shadowmeld to be honest.. that was just gamebreaking.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    If we're talking raw aoe DPS prot warrior is not just ahead by "a bit" lmao. The last time a tank was that far ahead of the pack in DPS was Monk in MoP when they got hit with a static 10% damage nerf across the board. Survival is debatable but they are at the top there as well even if others match them. Their damage definitely needs nerfed regardless.
    At the start of WoD they nerfed blood boil on blood DKs by nearly 50%. 30% during Highmaul and another 20% iirc at the start of BRF.

    What a lot of people don't realize about prot warrior DPS is that it's quite far ahead of every tank (or slightly above protection paladin) without even considering what you gain from spell reflect (which isn't shown in meters). In my 18ML, spell reflects contribution for instance was 1.4 million damage, it does even sillier things on the first boss in ToS, a couple of the Waycrest bosses, and the first boss in UR.

    Warriors probably have the best survival too, or at least monks are comparable.

    On the subject of professions it was odd that they didn't allow engineering brez, but allowed drums and scrolls.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    Also, who the hell spells curiosity with a q?
    Some one like me who doesn't PROOFREAD what he wrote.

    When @Marrilaife said about the class divercity this made me thinking.Can't Blizzard add some kind of debuff at the Shroud?When it is used and everyone who is inside gets a 5 minuted debuff similar to the one TW/BL share.
    Also why the invisible potion shares cd with the other potions?I find it stupid.Why not change it?That way double rogues may be avoided?
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