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  1. #1
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Seattle is Dying...?

    I have never visited Seattle, and only know about it from watching "Frasier", so this News Report by the ABC affiliate there kind of surprised me.



    The short of it is that Drug abuse + Homelessness and lax laws which prevent the police from doing anything is slowly killing the city.

    I know we have a few people from Seattle here; what is your take on this? Is it true, exaggerated? They have anonymous survey letters that they gave the local police departments to fill out, they were pretty upsetting... seems like the city council is not letting them do their jobs.

    They had a few different people they interviewed, Police Officers, to Drug Intervention specialists, to Shopkeepers, to residents and tourists all commenting on how much Seattle has changed in the past 3 years... a guy even created a site called "SeattleLooksLikeShit":

    https://www.facebook.com/SeattleLooksLikeShit/

    Where members take pictures of the 3rd world conditions of some of the streets/underpasses/homeless tent cities, in the city.
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  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force cubby's Avatar
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    I lived there for 10 years and saw a dramatic turn upward in homelessness and it's affects on the city and in particular downtown. The laws allow for the homeless to pretty much do anything they need to survive, including sleep just about anywhere they want, which includes the areas between a sidewalk and the street, that little grassed area a lot of suburbs and such have. Makes it just awful. And with homelessness and people living on the street, we see an increase in crime, etc.

    There is no housing for anyone anymore in the area. People working two jobs are still sharing rooms. Or commuting 2+ hours each way. We moved for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was a new job, but we had been looking to get out of there for awhile.

    "Dying" though? I don't think so. Just getting worse. It will take dramatic change to fix the problems, and I'm not sure the politicians there are up for it.
    The less you know, the more you believe.

    Science has promised us nothing and given us everything, faith has promised us everything and given us nothing.

  3. #3
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I lived there for 10 years and saw a dramatic turn upward in homelessness and it's affects on the city and in particular downtown. The laws allow for the homeless to pretty much do anything they need to survive, including sleep just about anywhere they want, which includes the areas between a sidewalk and the street, that little grassed area a lot of suburbs and such have. Makes it just awful. And with homelessness and people living on the street, we see an increase in crime, etc.

    There is no housing for anyone anymore in the area. People working two jobs are still sharing rooms. Or commuting 2+ hours each way. We moved for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was a new job, but we had been looking to get out of there for awhile.

    "Dying" though? I don't think so. Just getting worse. It will take dramatic change to fix the problems, and I'm not sure the politicians there are up for it.
    There was an interesting program that they show cased being tried in Long Island called "MAT" (Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) for Opioid Dependence):
    https://www.recovery.org/treatment-medication/opioid/

    Essentially in Long Island they go after the Homeless people that are also Drug addicted, put them into prisons/jails, etc, and then give them three different Drug choices (Methadone, and two others I forgot) which helps them detox and get off of heroin.

    That seems to be working, as they have a 93% retention of the people they release, coming back to the clinics and getting their medication so they can stay off of heroin/opioids, etc. That lets the homeless get their life in order, get work, and go back to their families, and seems to be a good thing for Seattle to try out.
    Last edited by Connal; 2019-04-12 at 09:58 PM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    There was an interesting program that they show cased being tried in Long Island called "MAT" (Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) for Opioid Dependence):
    https://www.recovery.org/treatment-medication/opioid/

    Essentially in Long Island they go after the Homeless people that are also Drug addicted, put them into prisons/jails, etc, and then give them three different Drug choices (Methadone, and two others I forgot) which helps them detox and get off of heroin.

    That seems to be working, as they have a 93% retention of the people they release, coming back to the clinics and getting their medication so they can stay off of heroin/opioids, etc. That lets the homeless get their life in order, get work, and go back to their families, and seems to be a good thing for Seattle to try out.
    How do you help someone fit into a society they do not want to be part of.
    "It doesn't matter if you believe me or not but common sense doesn't really work here. You're mad, I'm mad. We're all MAD here."

  5. #5
    Seattle is grappling with the issues that come with big money, specifically big tech money. We've seen similar issues in SF and other cities that have seen explosions of growth driven by tech.

    Is it dying? I don't live there so I can't say firsthand, though I've traveled there and seen it look more and more like the streets of SF, but "dying"? That seems like partisan hyperbole from Sinclair Broadcast group (who own this station).

    Context: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.3980c613b6c2
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/sincl...oadcast-group/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saucexorzski View Post
    How do you help someone fit into a society they do not want to be part of.
    Because many of them do want to be a part of it, they just need some help getting themselves back on their feet.

    Most homeless folks, especially those with substance abuse issues, aren't homeless and don't abuse drugs purely by choice. Talk with some of them, you'll learn a lot.

  6. #6
    The Undying freefolk's Avatar
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    Just another left wing city.

    They treat the homeless nicely.

    Word gets around and instead of 200 homeless living in your city, 8,000 homeless travel to Seattle to take advantage of the left wing policies.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

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  7. #7
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saucexorzski View Post
    How do you help someone fit into a society they do not want to be part of.
    In the Long Island Trial they said it was a "go to this program or stay in prison/jail" sort of ultimatum. But the people they interviewed that were drug addicts all seemed to want to go through the program... they thanked their arresting officers because they were at that point desperate, and knew they were close to dying, it seems.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Because many of them do want to be a part of it, they just need some help getting themselves back on their feet.

    Most homeless folks, especially those with substance abuse issues, aren't homeless and don't abuse drugs purely by choice. Talk with some of them, you'll learn a lot.
    I question if you have talked with them...because the stories i've listened too, from the mouth of homeless in dallas where i grew up was about how they choose this way of life as it was less stressful than being a part of society. I by no means am claiming all of them feel this way, but my experience is the vast majority of them do not want to fit in, because society sickens them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    In the Long Island Trial they said it was a "go to this program or stay in prison/jail" sort of ultimatum. But the people they interviewed that were drug addicts all seemed to want to go through the program... they thanked their arresting officers because they were at that point desperate, and knew they were close to dying, it seems.
    IDk, i think addressing their drug addiction is a good thing, but i don't think drugs are the problem. Most turn to drugs to escape the pains of social pressures and expectations.
    "It doesn't matter if you believe me or not but common sense doesn't really work here. You're mad, I'm mad. We're all MAD here."

  9. #9
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saucexorzski View Post
    IDk, i think addressing their drug addiction is a good thing, but i don't think drugs are the problem. Most turn to drugs to escape the pains of social pressures and expectations.
    True... though there was an interesting case in the video above starting at about 14:30... a homeless meth addict who seems to be having the time of his life...
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Stands in the Fire View Post
    Just another left wing city.

    They treat the homeless nicely.

    Word gets around and instead of 200 homeless living in your city, 8,000 homeless travel to Seattle to take advantage of the left wing policies.
    Not sure if it's happening here, but this problem in SF was significantly compounded by the fact that other cities/counties in California were giving their local homeless populations bus tickets to SF. And that organizations outside of CA would do shit like discharge patients from mental care facilities and send them to SF - https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...l-12771252.php

    Quote Originally Posted by Saucexorzski View Post
    I question if you have talked with them...because the stories i've listened too, from the mouth of homeless in dallas where i grew up was about how they choose this way of life as it was less stressful than being a part of society. I by no means am claiming all of them feel this way, but my experience is the vast majority of them do not want to fit in, because society sickens them.
    Hence why I didn't use "all", because I know some that prefer to live that way and don't want to "return to society". But I've chatted with a whole bunch between casual chit-chat on the streets and through volunteering at places like food kitchens etc. that primarily serve local homeless populations. You've got your die-hard "not going back" folks, but the overwhelming majority I've encountered, especially families, do want to go back and are both currently busting their butts to get back on their feet and are willing to continue to do so.

    Maybe we're just dealing with different sub-groups of folks.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Not sure if it's happening here, but this problem in SF was significantly compounded by the fact that other cities/counties in California were giving their local homeless populations bus tickets to SF. And that organizations outside of CA would do shit like discharge patients from mental care facilities and send them to SF - https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...l-12771252.php



    Hence why I didn't use "all", because I know some that prefer to live that way and don't want to "return to society". But I've chatted with a whole bunch between casual chit-chat on the streets and through volunteering at places like food kitchens etc. that primarily serve local homeless populations. You've got your die-hard "not going back" folks, but the overwhelming majority I've encountered, especially families, do want to go back and are both currently busting their butts to get back on their feet and are willing to continue to do so.

    Maybe we're just dealing with different sub-groups of folks.
    could also be time, my experience is near 15 years old at this point. times are a changin.
    "It doesn't matter if you believe me or not but common sense doesn't really work here. You're mad, I'm mad. We're all MAD here."

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Stands in the Fire View Post
    Just another left wing city.

    They treat the homeless nicely.

    Word gets around and instead of 200 homeless living in your city, 8,000 homeless travel to Seattle to take advantage of the left wing policies.
    Our mayor did basically that, he was quoted saying " we welcome the homeless" and put a bunch of money into two shelters. Now there are a ton here constantly, crime is trending down though, they are really more of a nuisance begging when you enter businesses . The banks downtown now all have armed security, the parks downtown are sketchy at night.

    The ones with the dogs bother me as I care much more about the dogs than the people, I always think about taking the dogs away

  13. #13
    Not dying, but having issues with three related "H" issues- homelessness, heroin, and housing.

    The city council was going to put a head tax on large businesses, but Overlord Bezos threw a fit and they repealed it. Kicker is that the cost of the head tax was less than that of a 25 cent/hour raise in every employee's wage.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Saucexorzski View Post
    could also be time, my experience is near 15 years old at this point. times are a changin.
    Oh man, definitely different. I haven't been involved in volunteering or chatting with homeless folks for that long, but even over the past 5-10 years I've noticed a pretty big shift in both the size of the population (much larger) and in the makeup (less your "usual crazy homeless person" and a lot more "regular folks who are in a real bad place and could use a hand up to help them get back on their feet") so even accounting for regional differences in the population there's likely been considerable shifts within each regional population over the time as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nymphetsss View Post
    The ones with the dogs bother me as I care much more about the dogs than the people, I always think about taking the dogs away
    You're a fucking monster, what the fuck is wrong with you? If this is some teenage edgelord shit, knock it off.

    Every homeless person I've ever met with a pet adores their pet and places its needs ahead of their own. They'll always feed their pet (dog, cat, bird, whatever) first, they'll always prioritize its health over their own. They suffer for their pets, and their pets love them and provide them with companionship that's hard to find when you're on the streets.

    This is a fucking repulsive post and you should be ashamed as a human being for espousing such an abhorrent view.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    You're a fucking monster, what the fuck is wrong with you? If this is some teenage edgelord shit, knock it off.

    Every homeless person I've ever met with a pet adores their pet and places its needs ahead of their own. They'll always feed their pet (dog, cat, bird, whatever) first, they'll always prioritize its health over their own. They suffer for their pets, and their pets love them and provide them with companionship that's hard to find when you're on the streets.

    This is a fucking repulsive post and you should be ashamed as a human being for espousing such an abhorrent view.
    Meh I guarantee my nice warm home with the huge yard is much better than dogs on the street, I can afford vet care and the like. My 5 dogs love it.

    I get you don't like me and I would easily put you on ignore if you werent a mod, I suggest maybe you ignore me since all you have to say is insults all the time.

  16. #16
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    At least the people around the 44 mins mark are not on opiates, I can guarantee you that. From their behavior I suspect some of the new designer drugs that mostly come from China, which, I might add for anyone here reading and is potentially curious, DON'T. Why? Simply because you're beta-testing on your own body things that are mostly randomly created from known to be psychotropic base chemical structures, just to avoid detection and those ineffective lists of controlled substances.

    Unsure what else to say. Drug use is not as simple as the narrator makes it to be, like "they just need an intervention". That's dumb. Intervention for what? Keep them a month locked up in a nightmare detox, and then throw them back on the street where they have nothing? Fighting addiction requires a proper long term plan that ends up in finding meaning and a path to reintegration. It's useless if you stop at detox alone.

    Not to mention that what these people in the video have taken is simply a largely unknown quantity. We just don't fully understand these new drugs and we have no idea what their impact is long term. The opiates at least we know plenty about, and contrary to what the narrator suggests, you can have a very good life while doing heroin - if it's managed and stable and there are no financial troubles. The issues arise from insane pricing, dirty drugs, health complications, shared needles and promiscuity/dangerous behavior while high. If you get addicts a job, and make their habit clean and controlled, they can function normally most of the time.
    The one in Long Island does actually offer psychological help + support for people to get back on their feet after they leave detox. It seems to work for the people they showed, though those could have been special cases... I don't know... something is better than just letting people live on the streets, and suffering while people pass them by. I always feel awkward driving by homeless people on the side of the road... like I should do something, but I am not sure what...
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nymphetsss View Post
    Meh I guarantee my nice warm home with the huge yard is much better than dogs on the street, I can afford vet care and the like. My 5 dogs love it.
    Then go get another shelter dog in jeopardy of being put down. Don't fucking steal other peoples god-damn companions.

    Quote Originally Posted by nymphetsss View Post
    I get you don't like me and I would easily put you on ignore if you werent a mod, I suggest maybe you ignore me since all you have to say is insults all the time.
    It has nothing to do with my opinion of you as a poster and everything to do with the content of your specific post. I don't care who made the post, I would have responded exactly the same.

    This isn't about "you", not everything is about "you". This is about your shitty, repulsive, inhuman view that lacks even the most basic level of compassion or empathy.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Then go get another shelter dog in jeopardy of being put down. Don't fucking steal other peoples god-damn companions.



    It has nothing to do with my opinion of you as a poster and everything to do with the content of your specific post. I don't care who made the post, I would have responded exactly the same.

    This isn't about "you", not everything is about "you". This is about your shitty, repulsive, inhuman view that lacks even the most basic level of compassion or empathy.
    People who can't take care of themselves I.E homeless, shouldnt have a pet since they cannot actually take care of it

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by nymphetsss View Post
    People who can't take care of themselves I.E homeless, shouldnt have a pet since they cannot actually take care of it
    Again, they do. Most of these animals would be out on the streets as well, and these people put the needs of the animal over their own damn consistently. Hungry? The pet gets food first, they'll eat whatever's left. Thirsty? Pet gets to drink first, they drink later. Raining or cold? Pet gets covered and stays warm/dry, they'll get soaked and freeze. These are their companions, they go everywhere together and they have fantastic bonds. And you want to steal their companions away from them, something that would emotionally traumatize both them and their pet, who has a similar bond with the homeless caretaker.

    Some may give them up if you offered to provide them with a safer, more secure home and a good life. Why? Because they care for their pets and want to see them healthy and happy. But you don't god-damn steal their pets from them.

    Good lord, has basic human empathy and compassion been totally lost on some folks? How on earth do you have so little care for your struggling human brother/sister that you'd maliciously harm them so you could feel better about helping an animal?

  20. #20
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Again, they do. Most of these animals would be out on the streets as well, and these people put the needs of the animal over their own damn consistently. Hungry? The pet gets food first, they'll eat whatever's left. Thirsty? Pet gets to drink first, they drink later. Raining or cold? Pet gets covered and stays warm/dry, they'll get soaked and freeze. These are their companions, they go everywhere together and they have fantastic bonds. And you want to steal their companions away from them, something that would emotionally traumatize both them and their pet, who has a similar bond with the homeless caretaker.

    Some may give them up if you offered to provide them with a safer, more secure home and a good life. Why? Because they care for their pets and want to see them healthy and happy. But you don't god-damn steal their pets from them.

    Good lord, has basic human empathy and compassion been totally lost on some folks? How on earth do you have so little care for your struggling human brother/sister that you'd maliciously harm them so you could feel better about helping an animal?
    That's psychologically interesting actually... people that tend to take care of others before themselves (especially animals, when dealing with things like food, medication, shelter, etc) tend to have very low regard for themselves. Which to me also means some trauma besides just drug addiction.
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