View Poll Results: Who is the dumbest faction leader?

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  • Anduin

    112 60.22%
  • Sylvanas

    74 39.78%
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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    traps he willfully ran into or set up because he didn't think something bad could happen.

    Lets go get the forsaken and humans together for a meeting almost NOONE wants. Have the closest thing to a living heir to lordaeron in attendance? It'll be GRAND. A real turning point! Why did that event happen? Anduin and his hopes that people and forsaken could be better.... why'd it fail? He let the one person into the field that really should have stayed out.

    Lordaeron? He wanted to go in and arrest Sylvanas, personally, and goes in with JUST his main advisers... tries to have his big speech.... it's a rigged room ready to go off and take any corporeal living things to a very blighted end.

    His company and closest advisers hardly listen to him as High King doing as they please and it seems that unless somehting actually triggers his anti-malice senses he doesn't bother doing anything.

    You act like he isn't allowing his hopes that others will act in his best interest isn't factoring into his incredibly obvious mistakes.
    He didn't commit suicide that would have lead to his people extinction, again nothing tops that lol. Anduin does struggle with his emotions but Sylvanas takes the cake for that part.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    He didn't commit suicide that would have lead to his people extinction, again nothing tops that lol. Anduin does struggle with his emotions but Sylvanas takes the cake for that part.
    And that suicide was undone and the people's extinction has yet to occur.

    I might as well bag anduin further for taking Alleria and Genn into that rigged room and thus gotten wiped out the first and second seats of authority in the stormwind military command....

    But Jaina acted in teh same fashion as the Valkyr and got their respective parties out of there.

    Sylvanas then had a very drastic change of character afterwards... Anduin is still very much the same as when he walked willingly into that room he would have died in.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    And that suicide was undone and the people's extinction has yet to occur.

    I might as well bag anduin further for taking Alleria and Genn into that rigged room and thus gotten wiped out the first and second seats of authority in the stormwind military command....

    But Jaina acted in teh same fashion as the Valkyr and got their respective parties out of there.

    Sylvanas then had a very drastic change of character afterwards... Anduin is still very much the same as when he walked willingly into that room he would have died in.
    Sylvanas deliberately wanted to die which would have resulted in her people death, Anduin being 18 year old making mistakes that he doesn't want to make is different then somebody DELIBERATELY wanting to commit suicide.

    Anduin is 18 years old, hard to making drastic changes as a young boy.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Sylvanas deliberately wanted to die which would have resulted in her people death, Anduin being 18 year old making mistakes that he doesn't want to make is different then somebody DELIBERATELY wanting to commit suicide.
    and that's all fine and dandy but her actions in any story following that event has held no hint or desire of wanting it again. That is part of the reason I downplay it. Do you still look at a someone who wanted to commit suicide who was talked down and seems to never hold those desires again? Or is it still "that guy tried to kill himself 10/20/40 years ago... all his work since then is invalid!"

    Adding in the would have and could haves THAT DIDN'T happen as additional ramifications for an action that was countered is also equally pointless.
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Anduin is 18 years old, hard to making drastic changes as a young boy.
    A young adult with an advisor with 50k+ (cause the fall of argus was 50K years prior not Velen's actual age), who's parlayed with the Monkey King (another being who's likely existed since prior to the sundering so 15k+), who's gone off and seen the world and experienced his own trials (remember how he got his magic bones), who is also a prince who was raised as such.... he should have some damned common sense and he HAS undergone events that WOULD drastically change someone's emotional/mental state.

    He's had his mother die, his dad gone missing... been tutored under sages, mages, and those under criminal wages and is keenly aware of what lies in the hearts of man (priest/bone powers)... his excuses for naivety are pretty flimsy.

  5. #65
    Sylvanas. Anduin has the excuse of youth and inexperience. Sylvanas goes full pants-on-head Cersei Lannister despite her supposed intelligence.

  6. #66
    Anduin is the ultimate imbecilic beta boy pussy as if from feminist pamphlet about toxic masculinity. He is too stupid to be a slave on my farm.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    and that's all fine and dandy but her actions in any story following that event has held no hint or desire of wanting it again. That is part of the reason I downplay it. Do you still look at a someone who wanted to commit suicide who was talked down and seems to never hold those desires again? Or is it still "that guy tried to kill himself 10/20/40 years ago... all his work since then is invalid!"
    By 10/20/30/40 years ago you mean 4-5 years? Doesn't matter though, Sylvanas, thousands of year old general would have let her people die because of her emotions, yeah that so like an 18 year old who only recently became king. You keep missing the point Anduin didn't deliberately wanted to make mistakes, that what makes Sylvanas case worse. Sylvnas wasnt talked out of a suicide, she did it, when she saw what torment awaited her she wanted out.

    Adding in the would have and could haves THAT DIDN'T happen as additional ramifications for an action that was countered is also equally pointless.
    So what that it didnt happened? The point she killed herself which would have resulted in the Forsaken extinction. Just because she got a free life card doesnt erase the act.

    A young adult with an advisor with 50k+ (cause the fall of argus was 50K years prior not Velen's actual age), who's parlayed with the Monkey King (another being who's likely existed since prior to the sundering so 15k+), who's gone off and seen the world and experienced his own trials (remember how he got his magic bones), who is also a prince who was raised as such.... he should have some damned common sense and he HAS undergone events that WOULD drastically change someone's emotional/mental state.
    Again nothing he did compares to what Sylvanas did based on emotion, because he doesnt WANT to make mistakes. Anduin is still a boy compared to everybody else.

    He's had his mother die, his dad gone missing... been tutored under sages, mages, and those under criminal wages and is keenly aware of what lies in the hearts of man (priest/bone powers)... his excuses for naivety are pretty flimsy.
    And did his naivety lead to a deliberate death by suicide that would have doomed his people? Anduin struggles with his emotions, but when it comes to comparing Sylvanas and him, she did far worse because she deliberately wanted to die. She didnt care for the Forsaken at all at that point, all because of her emotions. Did Anduin emotions lead to him not giving a crap about his people?
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-04-05 at 03:40 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Nirathiel View Post
    Anduin has a room for improvement since he's still very young. Can't say the same for Sylvanas after that guitar slide into Arthas.
    I don't consider it canon. I think that they just wanted to make the fight shorter. In the same matter they skipped the moment where Azshara uses Sharas'dal.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  9. #69
    anduin obviously. at least sylvanas has a goal

  10. #70
    The Lightbringer Archmage Alodi's Avatar
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    By 10/20/30/40 years ago you mean 4-5 years? Doesn't matter though, Sylvanas, thousands of year old general would have let her people die because of her emotions, yeah that so like an 18 year old who only recently became king. You keep missing the point Anduin didn't deliberately wanted to make mistakes, that what makes Sylvanas case worse. Sylvnas wasnt talked out of a suicide, she did it, when she saw what torment awaited her she wanted out.
    Most of the context we have for her emotions affecting her tossing away of lives seems to be a LACK of emotion or showing more importance on outcome (She's regarded as very callous in that regard even before death).

    No one intentionally makes mistakes... but his apparent lack of using his own resources and falling back on his obvious ignorance and thus being teh reason the mistakes are repeatedly happening is NOT something to ignore because he is ignorant. He is High King, not some youth.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    So what that it didnt happened? The point she killed herself which would have resulted in the Forsaken extinction. Just because she got a free life card doesnt erase the act.
    What didn't happen is that the forsaken didn't die out because she killed herself... much like the alliance wasn't without the main leadership because Anduin walked into a room with Genn. Just because Anduin got a free life card from Jaina doesn't change the fact he still walked into the trap.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Again nothing he did compares to what Sylvanas did based on emotion
    Pause... basically set Calia up to have her own coup/ Basically give Genn the army and resources to attempt to assassinate and wage his own personal war on the horde. Basically ignore his faction's aggression because he can't control shit and because he still thinks peace was an option... and this is all before the war of thorns began. Oh and leaving to run off and ignore his duties because didn't want to deal with shit... I'd comment on post BfA but I feel like more plot holes need to be properly addressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    , because he doesnt WANT to make mistakes.
    And he also seems to not want to learn from them either.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    And did his naivety lead to a deliberate death by suicide that would have doomed his people? Anduin struggles with his emotions, but when it comes to comparing Sylvanas and him, she did far worse because she deliberately wanted to die. She didnt care for the Forsaken at all at that point, all because of her emotions. Did Anduin emotions lead to him not giving a crap about his people?
    No... his naivety lead his troops into multiple death traps because he wanted to pursue when he should have backed off. His ignorance put civilians into a situation where one of his confidants abused their position and forced an escalation. HIs unwillingness to actually do what needs to be done is just hamstringing his nations armies so they can't perform and his loose grip on the reigns of power has his underlings undermining his orders.

    You can quibble that Sylvanas killed herself 6 years back. her actions afterwards seem to go contrary to the being you suggest. Meanwhile The current highest authority in the alliance is acting anything BUT with his authority and seems bereft of the faculties we know he should have access to. The alliance army is struggling against his 'advisement' (note: advising not commanding on Anduin's part) on multiple fronts while aggressively pushing into territory he's trying to maintain a gentler hand with (and basically just going in heavy handed anyways). He comes across as a figure head that gets paid lip service while his advisers do as they please.

  12. #72
    Anduin, he has the upper hand and the numbers in his army.
    After undercity and his army in the north what target he picks? Zandalar...

    Maybe you had to go to Silvermoon so you had control over all of the Eastern Kingdom.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Most of the context we have for her emotions affecting her tossing away of lives seems to be a LACK of emotion or showing more importance on outcome (She's regarded as very callous in that regard even before death).
    She has hate, hate is an emotion, a that point hate for herself and misery, "what joy is in this curse", and her hate on life started a war she cannot win and she dragged the entire Horde into it.

    No one intentionally makes mistakes... but his apparent lack of using his own resources and falling back on his obvious ignorance and thus being teh reason the mistakes are repeatedly happening is NOT something to ignore because he is ignorant. He is High King, not some youth.
    He is an 18 year old High King, and Sylvanas is far from not being ignorant, she is unwilling to learn not everybody is a self serving asshole who only cares from themselves. She only sees the worst in people and formulates plans based on those thoughts.

    What didn't happen is that the forsaken didn't die out because she killed herself... much like the alliance wasn't without the main leadership because Anduin walked into a room with Genn. Just because Anduin got a free life card from Jaina doesn't change the fact he still walked into the trap.
    Anduin didnt know it was a trap, Sylvans did know she would die,.


    Pause... basically set Calia up to have her own coup/
    Calia was brought because of Faol, and it was a forsaken who discovered a hidden Calia.

    Basically give Genn the army and resources to attempt to assassinate and wage his own personal war on the horde.
    At that point, Genn and Anduin thought the Horde betrayed them, and although he willingly chose to interpret Anduin orders about attacking, he was still in the end proven right with Sylvanas wanted to enslave an entire race. So that def lessens the anger one would have for Genn once knowing what Sylvanas was doing.

    Basically ignore his faction's aggression because he can't control shit and because he still thinks peace was an option...
    Peace was an option, in A Good war, Saurfang and Sylvanas said a peace could have lasted for up to 50 years, which when seeing every world ending disaster and war that happens every year is a miracle. They decided to start a war despite believing a peace could have been had for decades, if they said peace was an option that means Anduin was right to think that.

    And this is all before the war of thorns began. Oh and leaving to run off and ignore his duties because didn't want to deal with shit...
    Ran off? You mean in Legion when his last parent died? Yeah, how dare an 18 year old boy whose both parents died tragically and whose weight of the world had just been placed on his shoulders to feel overwhelmed. Besides its not like Sylvnas did anything against the Legion but persued her own goals that had nothing to do with the current war.

    And he also seems to not want to learn from them either.
    Neither does Sylvanas.

    No... his naivety lead his troops into multiple death traps because he wanted to pursue when he should have backed off. His ignorance put civilians into a situation where one of his confidants abused their position and forced an escalation. HIs unwillingness to actually do what needs to be done is just hamstringing his nations armies so they can't perform and his loose grip on the reigns of power has his underlings undermining his orders.
    Did he want to die? Sylvanas did. Did he give two shits about his people and soldiers? Sylvanas didn't.

    You can quibble that Sylvanas killed herself 6 years back. her actions afterwards seem to go contrary to the being you suggest. Meanwhile The current highest authority in the alliance is acting anything BUT with his authority and seems bereft of the faculties we know he should have access to. The alliance army is struggling against his 'advisement' (note: advising not commanding on Anduin's part) on multiple fronts while aggressively pushing into territory he's trying to maintain a gentler hand with (and basically just going in heavy handed anyways). He comes across as a figure head that gets paid lip service while his advisers do as they please.
    By her actions do you mean starting a war she cannot win because of her hate with life? Human life? Oh and dont forget her paranoia about death and thinking hope is a sickness, not exactly the traits of a emotional stable person.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-04-06 at 09:46 AM.

  14. #74
    I want to pick Blizzard. That faction is the stupidest of them all.

  15. #75
    Anduin is stupid, no doubt about that. But Slyvanus seriously isn't much better. She's like 1 iq point higher than Anduin, but she's still retarded.

    Slyvanus "the Tactical Genius" has only managed to shoot herself in the foot. She wanted to create a wedge between the Alliance and instead drove a wedge between the Horde. That's Anduin level genius. (Attacking the Zandalari to severe their ties with the Horde, only to cement them as Horde members).
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawlhero View Post
    Sylvanas was a ranger general and is probably 100x older than Andiun, Andiun is Naive, and inexperienced so he's probably dumber, and sylvanas is just a crazy miserable bitch. Both aren't dumb in the slightest though imo.
    Naivety and inexperience aren't stupidity. Anduin is young, not dumb.

    Sylvanas has no such excuse.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Naivety and inexperience aren't stupidity. Anduin is young, not dumb.

    Sylvanas has no such excuse.
    Well, she has one. And it's called "Blizzard rewriting the character". Seriously, forget for a second BfA happened and she raises like 50 points.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    She has hate, hate is an emotion, a that point hate for herself and misery, "what joy is in this curse", and her hate on life started a war she cannot win and she dragged the entire Horde into it.
    Her hate is also part of what spawned the nation in the first place . As for the start of the war, that's barely a plausible starting point unless you forget that Legion literally had her getting targeted, and horde interests being interrupted because certain parties will never leave others well alone. Sure I will agree that this is a war that will never be won. But that's more due to how the writing team are required to handle it... else this whole mess would have been 'officially' started the time the 7th legion opened fire on their would be allies when fighting against the burning legion instead of that bullshit azerite super weapon that Anduin and his small council agreed Sylvanas should never have control over. (before reaching out I might add since it's apparently hard for the diplomatic union of multiple nations to EVER use diplomacy first).

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    He is an 18 year old High King, and Sylvanas is far from not being ignorant, she is unwilling to learn not everybody is a self serving asshole who only cares from themselves.
    Actually it seems that her inner monologues in stories acknowledge this quite often....and how she needs to manipulate people to bring them around to her way of thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    She only sees the worst in people and formulates plans based on those thoughts.
    it certainly helps when many such people seem to reinforce that position and much of those plans come around because people seem to act in this way quite often. There are more Rogers' around than Anduin's


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Anduin didnt know it was a trap, Sylvans did know she would die,.
    ignorance of an outcome isn't protection from it. You want to toss on the weight of other implications of an act for one event but not the other. It remains that in one example here the character in question has refrained from taking similar actions as the story moves on. Meanwhile whether it's confronting an entire army of Orcs and divine armaments alone, walking into multiple traps trying to secure a moral victory, or expecting everyone to act out of the goodness of their heart.... it's a repeat action for the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Calia was brought because of Faol, and it was a forsaken who discovered a hidden Calia.
    Calia was allowed to enter the field because Anduin gave his consent.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    At that point, Genn and Anduin thought the Horde betrayed them, and although he willingly chose to interpret Anduin orders about attacking, he was still in the end proven right with Sylvanas wanted to enslave an entire race. So that def lessens the anger one would have for Genn once knowing what Sylvanas was doing.
    his actions were not proven right until AFTER he wasted a skyship, uncounted personnel and supplies and chased horde forces across the country three times over. there was never any motivation about handling or understanding any such 'slavery' until they were on the home stretch after taking the chase to Hel and back.

    Again, more actions taken without considering diplomacy first. The issue on Anduin's part here is how he handled Genn afterwards which was promoting him to regent of Stormwind instead of any reprimand for his actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Peace was an option, in A Good war, Saurfang and Sylvanas said a peace could have lasted for up to 50 years, which when seeing every world ending disaster and war that happens every year is a miracle. They decided to start a war despite believing a peace could have been had for decades, if they said peace was an option that means Anduin was right to think that.
    peace was an option when the first thought BEFORE this story began we cut to Anduin, Genn, and Mathias plotting to disrupt horde actions because Sylvanas can't be trusted and this is without any contact with any horde or alliance factions. Sylvanas suggested peace for a time would be possible. Anduin and Co had some other ideas.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Ran off? You mean in Legion when his last parent died? Yeah, how dare an 18 year old boy whose both parents died tragically and whose weight of the world had just been placed on his shoulders to feel overwhelmed. Besides its not like Sylvnas did anything against the Legion but persued her own goals that had nothing to do with the current war.
    Yes, how dare the crown prince and new lord of a nation abandon his people with no plan to run off cavorting around demons with basically no honor guard or word passed.

    IN comparison the "personal goal" you want to call out was an expedition with a full fleet and armed force heading off into currently unexplored regions along similar reasoning as everyone else's broken isle expeditions. We all went looking for pillars of creation and other world altering relics with functions we barely understood. Given the amount of intel anyone had.... how would Sylvanas' trip be far different (especially considering how little info was available before reaching Hel).



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Did he want to die? Sylvanas did. Did he give two shits about his people and soldiers? Sylvanas didn't.
    This is a point where perspective seems to be rather odd. In some areas he seems to not give two shits if they follow his commands so long as they survive and people seem happy and functional... or he laments blood shed that he can somehow argue is unavoidable. Sylvanas is reverse where she cares so long as a purpose is served and once that purpose is served most things are expendable. Fortunately most of her self preservation purpose has required her to keep a status quo functional... but that hasn't stopped people from pointing out she'd drop everyone if it came to such ends.

    In this area, Anduin comes across as a very weak leader... easily replaced by just about anything and would be a better bet.... Sylvanas actually seems to try and show case good leadership despite her obvious nature. But given how the story keeps forgetting some events she just comes across as pointlessly evil and they're going to rack up even more on that train of thought cause they continue to be unable to showcase one faction as anything less than good.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    By her actions do you mean starting a war she cannot win because of her hate with life? Human life? Oh and dont forget her paranoia about death and thinking hope is a sickness, not exactly the traits of a emotional stable person.
    She was hoisted as starting teh war because everyone clearly forgets that attempting to assassinate a sovereign nation's leader with an army is an act of war so we all just forget and let bygones be bygones because it might be a little odd to look at Stormwind as world police trying to keep their peace world wide. (who then go into a desert halfway around the world to try and control a recourse they suddenly are interested in that fuels modern tech.... )

    In before we have a new patch where goblins smack into the Mage Tower with zeps and we have a whole group go on about how rocket fuel can't melt Leystone

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthiasVonTzeskagrad View Post
    Well, she has one. And it's called "Blizzard rewriting the character". Seriously, forget for a second BfA happened and she raises like 50 points.
    That's an out-of-story reason, though. In-story, she doesn't.

    Though it should be noted that she's now in a position she never really wanted to be, so you could argue she's out of her waters.

  20. #80
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    As much as I love the Dark Lady, the Lord Godfrey affair makes her look like a complete fool.

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