View Poll Results: Who is the dumbest faction leader?

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186. You may not vote on this poll
  • Anduin

    112 60.22%
  • Sylvanas

    74 39.78%
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  1. #81
    Anduin is stupid, no doubt about that. But Slyvanus seriously isn't much better. She's like 1 iq point higher than Anduin, but she's still retarded.

    Slyvanus "the Tactical Genius" has only managed to shoot herself in the foot. She wanted to create a wedge between the Alliance and instead drove a wedge between the Horde. That's Anduin level genius. (Attacking the Zandalari to severe their ties with the Horde, only to cement them as Horde members).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how they can't post as much because they keep getting banned, I'd say if anyone's spazzing out, it'd be them.
    Quote Originally Posted by sillag View Post
    im not saying all blood elf fans are weird edgelord neo-nazis

    but all weird edgelord neo-nazis in wow are blood elf rpers

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawlhero View Post
    Sylvanas was a ranger general and is probably 100x older than Andiun, Andiun is Naive, and inexperienced so he's probably dumber, and sylvanas is just a crazy miserable bitch. Both aren't dumb in the slightest though imo.
    Naivety and inexperience aren't stupidity. Anduin is young, not dumb.

    Sylvanas has no such excuse.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Naivety and inexperience aren't stupidity. Anduin is young, not dumb.

    Sylvanas has no such excuse.
    Well, she has one. And it's called "Blizzard rewriting the character". Seriously, forget for a second BfA happened and she raises like 50 points.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    She has hate, hate is an emotion, a that point hate for herself and misery, "what joy is in this curse", and her hate on life started a war she cannot win and she dragged the entire Horde into it.
    Her hate is also part of what spawned the nation in the first place . As for the start of the war, that's barely a plausible starting point unless you forget that Legion literally had her getting targeted, and horde interests being interrupted because certain parties will never leave others well alone. Sure I will agree that this is a war that will never be won. But that's more due to how the writing team are required to handle it... else this whole mess would have been 'officially' started the time the 7th legion opened fire on their would be allies when fighting against the burning legion instead of that bullshit azerite super weapon that Anduin and his small council agreed Sylvanas should never have control over. (before reaching out I might add since it's apparently hard for the diplomatic union of multiple nations to EVER use diplomacy first).

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    He is an 18 year old High King, and Sylvanas is far from not being ignorant, she is unwilling to learn not everybody is a self serving asshole who only cares from themselves.
    Actually it seems that her inner monologues in stories acknowledge this quite often....and how she needs to manipulate people to bring them around to her way of thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    She only sees the worst in people and formulates plans based on those thoughts.
    it certainly helps when many such people seem to reinforce that position and much of those plans come around because people seem to act in this way quite often. There are more Rogers' around than Anduin's


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Anduin didnt know it was a trap, Sylvans did know she would die,.
    ignorance of an outcome isn't protection from it. You want to toss on the weight of other implications of an act for one event but not the other. It remains that in one example here the character in question has refrained from taking similar actions as the story moves on. Meanwhile whether it's confronting an entire army of Orcs and divine armaments alone, walking into multiple traps trying to secure a moral victory, or expecting everyone to act out of the goodness of their heart.... it's a repeat action for the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Calia was brought because of Faol, and it was a forsaken who discovered a hidden Calia.
    Calia was allowed to enter the field because Anduin gave his consent.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    At that point, Genn and Anduin thought the Horde betrayed them, and although he willingly chose to interpret Anduin orders about attacking, he was still in the end proven right with Sylvanas wanted to enslave an entire race. So that def lessens the anger one would have for Genn once knowing what Sylvanas was doing.
    his actions were not proven right until AFTER he wasted a skyship, uncounted personnel and supplies and chased horde forces across the country three times over. there was never any motivation about handling or understanding any such 'slavery' until they were on the home stretch after taking the chase to Hel and back.

    Again, more actions taken without considering diplomacy first. The issue on Anduin's part here is how he handled Genn afterwards which was promoting him to regent of Stormwind instead of any reprimand for his actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Peace was an option, in A Good war, Saurfang and Sylvanas said a peace could have lasted for up to 50 years, which when seeing every world ending disaster and war that happens every year is a miracle. They decided to start a war despite believing a peace could have been had for decades, if they said peace was an option that means Anduin was right to think that.
    peace was an option when the first thought BEFORE this story began we cut to Anduin, Genn, and Mathias plotting to disrupt horde actions because Sylvanas can't be trusted and this is without any contact with any horde or alliance factions. Sylvanas suggested peace for a time would be possible. Anduin and Co had some other ideas.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Ran off? You mean in Legion when his last parent died? Yeah, how dare an 18 year old boy whose both parents died tragically and whose weight of the world had just been placed on his shoulders to feel overwhelmed. Besides its not like Sylvnas did anything against the Legion but persued her own goals that had nothing to do with the current war.
    Yes, how dare the crown prince and new lord of a nation abandon his people with no plan to run off cavorting around demons with basically no honor guard or word passed.

    IN comparison the "personal goal" you want to call out was an expedition with a full fleet and armed force heading off into currently unexplored regions along similar reasoning as everyone else's broken isle expeditions. We all went looking for pillars of creation and other world altering relics with functions we barely understood. Given the amount of intel anyone had.... how would Sylvanas' trip be far different (especially considering how little info was available before reaching Hel).



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Did he want to die? Sylvanas did. Did he give two shits about his people and soldiers? Sylvanas didn't.
    This is a point where perspective seems to be rather odd. In some areas he seems to not give two shits if they follow his commands so long as they survive and people seem happy and functional... or he laments blood shed that he can somehow argue is unavoidable. Sylvanas is reverse where she cares so long as a purpose is served and once that purpose is served most things are expendable. Fortunately most of her self preservation purpose has required her to keep a status quo functional... but that hasn't stopped people from pointing out she'd drop everyone if it came to such ends.

    In this area, Anduin comes across as a very weak leader... easily replaced by just about anything and would be a better bet.... Sylvanas actually seems to try and show case good leadership despite her obvious nature. But given how the story keeps forgetting some events she just comes across as pointlessly evil and they're going to rack up even more on that train of thought cause they continue to be unable to showcase one faction as anything less than good.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    By her actions do you mean starting a war she cannot win because of her hate with life? Human life? Oh and dont forget her paranoia about death and thinking hope is a sickness, not exactly the traits of a emotional stable person.
    She was hoisted as starting teh war because everyone clearly forgets that attempting to assassinate a sovereign nation's leader with an army is an act of war so we all just forget and let bygones be bygones because it might be a little odd to look at Stormwind as world police trying to keep their peace world wide. (who then go into a desert halfway around the world to try and control a recourse they suddenly are interested in that fuels modern tech.... )

    In before we have a new patch where goblins smack into the Mage Tower with zeps and we have a whole group go on about how rocket fuel can't melt Leystone

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthiasVonTzeskagrad View Post
    Well, she has one. And it's called "Blizzard rewriting the character". Seriously, forget for a second BfA happened and she raises like 50 points.
    That's an out-of-story reason, though. In-story, she doesn't.

    Though it should be noted that she's now in a position she never really wanted to be, so you could argue she's out of her waters.

  6. #86
    Stood in the Fire Baiyn the Second's Avatar
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    As much as I love the Dark Lady, the Lord Godfrey affair makes her look like a complete fool.

  7. #87
    I'd have to say Anduin simply for the fact that the writers gave him the ability to physically feel when a decision is stupid/bad, yet he does those stupid/bad things anyway (example: saying yes when Calia asked to go to the Gathering in arathi)

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    She was hoisted as starting teh war because everyone clearly forgets that attempting to assassinate a sovereign nation's leader with an army is an act of war so we all just forget and let bygones be bygones because it might be a little odd to look at Stormwind as world police trying to keep their peace world wide. (who then go into a desert halfway around the world to try and control a recourse they suddenly are interested in that fuels modern tech.... )

    In before we have a new patch where goblins smack into the Mage Tower with zeps and we have a whole group go on about how rocket fuel can't melt Leystone
    Omly if the defender cann claim a higher moral ground, which Stlvanas clearly was unable to "So I tried to enslave this demigod by striking a deal with another demigod, but it's all their fault since they attacked me!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    he's only shot himself in teh foot politcally twice, run headlong into death traps twice and managed to give the horde every fucking reason to continue hostilities while masquerading as an attempt at leadership.
    One death trap that only exists because of plot armour and Blizzard wanted to give their favourite waifu a cool moment and when looked upon objectively only make her look utterly stupid.

  9. #89
    Elemental Lord Orby's Avatar
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    Not sure Anduin is stupid, he's actually very smart, but his weakness is that he is too passive, he is too forgiving and too generous to others that when it backfires in his face he's all mopey about it. I kind of like that in a way, because it shows Anduin's own pride is his weakness.

    I know many people think Anduin is badly written, I generally think the opposite, he's actually written really well, it may not be intended but Anduin is written as a pretty bad leader. He has faults, he cannot hold the alliance together and he is constantly making bad decisions all the while Sylvanaas is one step a head. And I hate Sylvanas, I have hated her since Warcraft 3, back then I called her Kerrigan lite.

    But I don't think either is dumb, but Anduin is the most flawed.
    "Hatred and prejudice will never be eradicated. And witch hunts will never be about witches. To have a scapegoat—that's the key" - Geralt of Rivia

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Her hate is also part of what spawned the nation in the first place . As for the start of the war, that's barely a plausible starting point unless you forget that Legion literally had her getting targeted, and horde interests being interrupted because certain parties will never leave others well alone. Sure I will agree that this is a war that will never be won. But that's more due to how the writing team are required to handle it... else this whole mess would have been 'officially' started the time the 7th legion opened fire on their would be allies when fighting against the burning legion instead of that bullshit azerite super weapon that Anduin and his small council agreed Sylvanas should never have control over. (before reaching out I might add since it's apparently hard for the diplomatic union of multiple nations to EVER use diplomacy first).
    Spawned the nation that later because of her hate would have also fallen.

    There was peace in A Good war, period, Sylvanas decided that to wage war not and not in 50 years.

    The war will never be won because when you declare war on hope itself and give a message that if the enemy loses their race will be exterminated you make sure the enemy fights to the last man and drags you with them.

    Actually it seems that her inner monologues in stories acknowledge this quite often....and how she needs to manipulate people to bring them around to her way of thinking.
    it certainly helps when many such people seem to reinforce that position and much of those plans come around because people seem to act in this way quite often. There are more Rogers' around than Anduin's
    So she is willingly ignorant


    ignorance of an outcome isn't protection from it. You want to toss on the weight of other implications of an act for one event but not the other. It remains that in one example here the character in question has refrained from taking similar actions as the story moves on. Meanwhile whether it's confronting an entire army of Orcs and divine armaments alone, walking into multiple traps trying to secure a moral victory, or expecting everyone to act out of the goodness of their heart.... it's a repeat action for the other.
    A moral victory? The aim was to capture Sylvanas and end the war right then.

    Calia was allowed to enter the field because Anduin gave his consent.
    There's nothing to be allowed, Calia isnt in the Alliance, she was brought by Faol as a part of their priest order.

    his actions were not proven right until AFTER he wasted a skyship, uncounted personnel and supplies and chased horde forces across the country three times over. there was never any motivation about handling or understanding any such 'slavery' until they were on the home stretch after taking the chase to Hel and back.
    Yes but when discovered that Sylvanas tried to enslave a race it def lessens the impact.

    Again, more actions were taken without considering diplomacy first. The issue on Anduin's part here is how he handled Genn afterwards which was promoting him to regent of Stormwind instead of any reprimand for his actions.
    Again at that point, Anduin thought the Horde betrayed them, and again the fact that Sylvanas was once again doing shady shit that would have damaged one of their allies against the Legion makes Genn less in the wrong.


    peace was an option when the first thought BEFORE this story began we cut to Anduin, Genn, and Mathias plotting to disrupt horde actions because Sylvanas can't be trusted and this is without any contact with any horde or alliance factions. Sylvanas suggested peace for a time would be possible. Anduin and Co had some other ideas.

    Yes they were weary what Sylvanas wanted to do, naturally given her past actions, nothing said they wanted a global war, and loa and behold they were right, Sylvanas first thought when seeing the Azerite was to start a war.

    Yes, how dare the crown prince and new lord of a nation abandon his people with no plan to run off cavorting around demons with basically no honor guard or word passed.
    Lol, he sure did run off and abandoned them, all the way to the Cathedral! You make it sound like he fled to the other side of the world, and again it's not like Sylvanas did anything against the Legion either, despite the fact she is thousands of years old general.

    IN comparison the "personal goal" you want to call out was an expedition with a full fleet and armed force heading off into currently unexplored regions along similar reasoning as everyone else's broken isle expeditions. We all went looking for pillars of creation and other world altering relics with functions we barely understood. Given the amount of intel anyone had.... how would Sylvanas' trip be far different (especially considering how little info was available before reaching Hel).
    Sylvanas herself was at the Broken shore for her own personal goal, what the other Horde soldiers did doesn't change the fact she herself only came because of her own goals.

    This is a point where perspective seems to be rather odd. In some areas he seems to not give two shits if they follow his commands so long as they survive and people seem happy and functional... or he laments blood shed that he can somehow argue is unavoidable. Sylvanas is reverse where she cares so long as a purpose is served and once that purpose is served most things are expendable. Fortunately most of her self preservation purpose has required her to keep a status quo functional... but that hasn't stopped people from pointing out she'd drop everyone if it came to such ends.
    Sylvanas at that point regarded the entire Forsaken race as meat shields, she didn't care for any one of them. Does Anduin at any point ever regarded his ENTIRE race as nothing but a disease and meat shields?

    In this area, Anduin comes across as a very weak leader... easily replaced by just about anything and would be a better bet.... Sylvanas actually seems to try and show case good leadership despite her obvious nature. But given how the story keeps forgetting some events she just comes across as pointlessly evil and they're going to rack up even more on that train of thought cause they continue to be unable to showcase one faction as anything less than good.
    Yes excellent leadership like mining the blood of the world despite being warned that it will kill the planet and lying to the person that tried to warned them, and starting a war that they can never win.


    She was hoisted as starting the war because everyone clearly forgets that attempting to assassinate a sovereign nation's leader with an army is an act of war so we all just forget and let bygones be bygones because it might be a little odd to look at Stormwind as world police trying to keep their peace world wide. (who then go into a desert halfway around the world to try and control a recourse they suddenly are interested in that fuels modern tech.... )
    She prob didn't want the Horde to know she tried to enslave an entire race, who were their allies against the Legion. She started the war because of her own motives that she doesn't want the others to know, motives that even beings like Elune would oppose. In fact, she only thought that Elune would interfere at a later stage of her plans and not at the start with Saurfang and Malfurion.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-04-06 at 03:26 PM.

  11. #91
    The one following a corpse.

  12. #92
    The Lightbringer TriHard's Avatar
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    Tyrande by far, she literally let her people die in favor of one person (Malfurion) and then she has the balls to demand help from the alliance, lmfao. Kill that bitch off and make space for a good elvish leader.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Void Fallen View Post
    What a tough question. Sylvanas made a Dreadlord her second-in-command and was betrayed by countless people in less than a decade (Varimathras, Putress, Godfrey, Galen Trollbane, Stillwater...). She also made astonishingly stupid decisions such as killing Garithos instead of using him to blackmail the Alliance (then was shocked when the Forsaken were rejected) and burning Teldrassil instead of plundering it of its resources and keeping its people hostage to blackmail the Alliance. But for me the funniest moment was when she completely ignored a crazy free-willed Gilnean supremacist who was wielding a deadly shotgun and standing right next to her. What the heck was she thinking?

    Anduin is another thing entirely. He didn't bring any form of Blight protection when facing cornered Forsaken, he fell right into an ambush and would have died were it not for the miraculous intervention of Alleria Windrunner and the Gnome leader, and didn't suspect anything when he saw Sylvanas just sitting on the throne, alone, wielding no weapon, and yet acting all smug. He is actively trying to fall into those traps, or he is just stupid.

    Either way, both of them are a sickness of the story that must be expunged. Especially the Disney Golden Child.
    Lets dig a little deeper there shall we? :P

    Sylvanas showed mercy to a dreadlord... why would anyone do that? well, did you know that at the time sylvanas wanted to kill them all... so making the first dreadlord she defeated her second in command helped her overcome the others since varimathras being one of his kind was able to give insight into their tactics. Looking at the lore... it obviously worked! And for a long time he wasnt in any position to overthrow sylvanas until wotlk.
    So id say that was a wise strategic decision... if you are able to capture a high-ranking officer of the enemy at the beginning of a war then its definitely going to be worth it to keep them alive. Considering Varimathras also followed her orders and killed Balnazzar when ordered to, cunning dreadlord can be cunning.

    Speaking of Balnazzar... lets move on, why would she use Garithos for blackmailing? he was by no means a high-ranking officer or a well respected commander in the alliance. Garithos did not become a Grand Marshal because of his skill, he became a leader by chance since he just happened to be the highest ranking survivor in the decimated lordaeron military. Also nobody liked him... he was xenophobic (see treatment of kaelthas) and ill-tempered, so he probably was arrogant towards sylvanas aswell.
    Did she not use him at all then? wrong, he deliberately used Garithos and his forces to overcome balnazzar's army and defeat him... only after that did she order his execution. So yes she did use him instead of just killing him as a "stupid decision".

    What about teldrassil? wouldnt it give good resources for the horde? well... why would you commit your entire military might to overcome an alliance CAPITAL and HOLD it? what about your own cities... when you are holding up in teldrassil alliance could just go and raid all the other horde cities since the majority of the horde forces are occupying teldrassil and trying to strip it of resources.
    Would it really be worth it? instead of plundering teldrassil you could maybe plunder something like darkshore, feralas or even stormwind's nearby forests for even more wood and iron. Much more risk free... teldrassil being the capital of night elves is gonna have some serious woodland defenses, more so than darkshore.


    Id say your criticism about her tactics is flawed... by no means am i saying burning teldrassil was a good idea (although i still dont know why she did it... i havent played the war campaign further since launch) but comparing it to fully invading it and plundering its resources... its alot less risky.

    And blackmailing just never works in such a grand scale... you blackmail them and meanwhile they can just go and capture your cities and then blackmail you, you wont have the forces to do both at the sametime... conquest AND defense.
    Especially since we already know the attack on teldrassil happened before the reinforcements from stormwind/ironforge were able to arrive for help, so after that horde forces would have been under siege on teldrassil and meanwhile the alliance would pretty much have free reign over the rest of the world. Its a very bad strategic decision to get yourself cornered in enemy territory. :P

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    Omly if the defender cann claim a higher moral ground, which Stlvanas clearly was unable to "So I tried to enslave this demigod by striking a deal with another demigod, but it's all their fault since they attacked me!"
    This argument falls flat because the original attack is made without any knowledge or awareness of the enslavement plan. Therefore the argument of self defense would still be the favorable one if you want to discuss morality. Genn and Rogers lead an assault because of their own ill intentions without regard for a larger plot beyond their desire to kill. It just so happened that after the attack was thwarted, their continued pursuit failed, and further revelations were made AFTER the fact that Genn's side can then argue that they stopped something worse... but then they also let Sylvanas walk away which wasn't their plan to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    One death trap that only exists because of plot armour and Blizzard wanted to give their favourite waifu a cool moment and when looked upon objectively only make her look utterly stupid.
    you're going to have to be clear here... there was plot armor abounds on all teh characters present. Anduin with Jaina es Machina ship and teleports. And Alleria es machina with even more teleports to help out of every ambush and pincer move Anduin and Genn ran into along the entirety of the battle for Lordaeron in addition to Anduin's self righteous idea of trying to bring justice... when he clearly hasn't been acting in the name of real justice except his own. (i mean bringing genn, jaina, and alleria in there to talk of crimes when all three perpetrated their own crimes against peace).

    but I guess it's too pro-sylvanas to point any of that out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Spawned the nation that later because of her hate would have also fallen.
    Are you still refering to her suicide or the fact that she instigated the new war (which is on her fault because writers decided to let other war initiating events fall into plot holes). If the former... thats not hate, that was resignation after completing what she believed was her life's work more so than hatred of existence. If the later... well you and I will have to disagree since I personally think the wars initiation is more bullshit than what would fill the sewers of thunderbluff... if it had sewers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    There was peace in A Good war, period, Sylvanas decided that to wage war not and not in 50 years.
    and there's sound military tactics as to why since it would only really let either party build power base and grow an advantage and the horde was still reeling from previous issues and the current alliance doesn't seem entirely solid in it's own structure... with it's new incredibly naive Highest Authority seemingly unable to provide much of any peace despite this estimate of a few decades. Why let your foe get fat and happy and continue planning against you?
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    The war will never be won because when you declare war on hope itself and give a message that if the enemy loses their race will be exterminated you make sure the enemy fights to the last man and drags you with them.
    a war to break one's hope and your interpretation of a war on hope aren't the same fights that were proposed originally or even planned. But that's a different debate.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    A moral victory? The aim was to capture Sylvanas and end the war right then.
    I'm sure it woud have ended right there... with the utter destruction of tirisfal and some of the biggest criminals against the horde lording over their victory. Anduin wanted to assert his view of things as right and just instead of simply ending it. That's why he personally went in to capture sylvanas instead of leveling the place himself.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    There's nothing to be allowed, Calia isnt in the Alliance, she was brought by Faol as a part of their priest order.
    Calia was not only allowed, Anduin personally asked her to participate so she could be seen as a 'living' priest working with an undead.... Not at Faol's request because of the priestly order but because Anduin said so.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Yes but when discovered that Sylvanas tried to enslave a race it def lessens the impact.
    not as much since the attack happened prior to the investigation into the events and this information was foudn out later. A murderer is still a piece of shit when they were out looking to murder, finding out they targeted another piece of shit doesn't suddenly make their original intent suddenly ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Again at that point, Anduin thought the Horde betrayed them, and again the fact that Sylvanas was once again doing shady shit that would have damaged one of their allies against the Legion makes Genn less in the wrong.
    I will reiterate my above statement... Just because it turns out you wronged someone who was also wrong doesn't make you less wrong.





    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Yes they were weary what Sylvanas wanted to do, naturally given her past actions, nothing said they wanted a global war, and loa and behold they were right, Sylvanas first thought when seeing the Azerite was to start a war.
    I wouldn't blame them for wanting to start a war... they liteally just had some one target them personally and jeopardize military operations multiple times while foreign nationals came to dictate terms for political actions...



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Lol, he sure did run off and abandoned them, all the way to the Cathedral! You make it sound like he fled to the other side of the world, and again it's not like Sylvanas did anything against the Legion either, despite the fact she is thousands of years old general.
    Can't really do anything against the legion when your army is hamstrung and you're chased across the boonies by your 'so called ally'....



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Sylvanas herself was at the Broken shore for her own personal goal, what the other Horde soldiers did doesn't change the fact she herself only came because of her own goals.
    ok so now what was sylvanas' personal goal at broken shore? Not following teh warchief's order to participate when literally everyone else was doing that?


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Yes excellent leadership like mining the blood of the world despite being warned that it will kill the planet and lying to the person that tried to warned them, and starting a war that they can never win.
    Is it excellent leadership to take the word of an former enemy of state at face value simply because they come back empowered by magic no one fully understands? Nevermind that the whole life of azeroth thing is something that isn't explained as to why it's important or not. That is another discussion. Lets say the former emperor of china showed up and told us to stop drilling for oil. Should we simply because he shows up and is polite... do exactly that? that's a big "fuck off" in my book. So the former king of Ironforge showing up to tell the horde to act because he's got a bad feeling should get a similar treatment... even moreso since he doesn't even know what's up and assumes he's doing what he says.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    She prob didn't want the Horde to know she tried to enslave an entire race, who were their allies against the Legion. She started the war because of her own motives that she doesn't want the others to know, motives that even beings like Elune would oppose. In fact, she only thought that Elune would interfere at a later stage of her plans and not at the start with Saurfang and Malfurion.
    That's a fine point to argue but we don't know if it was the original plan or a result of the unknown deal with Helya. It's a point that won't reach consensus except to show bias.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Are you still refering to her suicide or the fact that she instigated the new war (which is on her fault because writers decided to let other war initiating events fall into plot holes). If the former... thats not hate, that was resignation after completing what she believed was her life's work more so than hatred of existence. If the later... well you and I will have to disagree since I personally think the wars initiation is more bullshit than what would fill the sewers of thunderbluff... if it had sewers.
    and there's sound military tactics as to why since it would only really let either party build power base and grow an advantage and the horde was still reeling from previous issues and the current alliance doesn't seem entirely solid in it's own structure... with it's new incredibly naive Highest Authority seemingly unable to provide much of any peace despite this estimate of a few decades. Why let your foe get fat and happy and continue planning against you?
    Yes, I'm talking about the suicide thing. She hated her own existence and she didn't care at all for the other Forsaken, did Anduin at any point regarded his entire race as meatshields and monsters?

    a war to break one's hope and your interpretation of a war on hope aren't the same fights that were proposed originally or even planned. But that's a different debate
    .

    War against hope and existence of other races. That's the message after Darnassus. And a sure way to ensure a defeat.

    I'm sure it woud have ended right there... with the utter destruction of tirisfal and some of the biggest criminals against the horde lording over their victory. Anduin wanted to assert his view of things as right and just instead of simply ending it. That's why he personally went in to capture sylvanas instead of leveling the place himself.
    Leveling the place? The aim was to capture Sylvans and retake Lordaeron not destroy it, moral aims are not why he attacked Lordaeron.

    Calia was not only allowed, Anduin personally asked her to participate so she could be seen as a 'living' priest working with an undead.... Not at Faol's request because of the priestly order but because Anduin said so.

    In disguise, yes. It was a Forsaken that said to Calia to reveal herself, and it was some of these Forsaken who started to leave for Stormguard.

    not as much since the attack happened prior to the investigation into the events and this information was foudn out later. A murderer is still a piece of shit when they were out looking to murder, finding out they targeted another piece of shit doesn't suddenly make their original intent suddenly ok.
    Genn believed that the Horde betrayed them, add that with the fact his neutral country was invaded with the aim of extermination by the very same person who is now Warchief, and later discovering Sylvanas was indeed not there to fight the Legion. All that together and its a different story from just attacking without any reason.

    I will reiterate my above statement... Just because it turns out you wronged someone who was also wrong doesn't make you less wrong.
    From Anduin pow it does make sense to go easy on Genn, especially since at that time the Alliance believed the Horde betrayed them.

    I wouldn't blame them for wanting to start a war... they liteally just had some one target them personally and jeopardize military operations multiple times while foreign nationals came to dictate terms for political actions...
    You wouldn't blame them for killing the planet in order to start a war?

    Can't really do anything against the legion when your army is hamstrung and you're chased across the boonies by your 'so called ally'....
    The Horde army was already fighting the Legion, Sylvanas only came for her own goals and the deal she made with a certain raid boss.

    ok so now what was sylvanas' personal goal at broken shore? Not following teh warchief's order to participate when literally everyone else was doing that?
    Her goal was to get an infinite number of Valkyr and her deal with Helya. Not following the warchiefs orders? What do you mean?


    Is it excellent leadership to take the word of an former enemy of state at face value simply because they come back empowered by magic no one fully understands? Nevermind that the whole life of azeroth thing is something that isn't explained as to why it's important or not. That is another discussion. Lets say the former emperor of china showed up and told us to stop drilling for oil. Should we simply because he shows up and is polite... do exactly that? that's a big "fuck off" in my book. So the former king of Ironforge showing up to tell the horde to act because he's got a bad feeling should get a similar treatment... even moreso since he doesn't even know what's up and assumes he's doing what he says.
    Then why lie? Why not actually try to discover the truth behind it? Instead of immediately go charging into a global war that won't be won?


    That's a fine point to argue but we don't know if it was the original plan or a result of the unknown deal with Helya. It's a point that won't reach consensus except to show bias.
    Why does it matter? The point is thats her plan in this war.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-04-06 at 05:09 PM.

  16. #96
    Anduin is portrayed as gullible and naive due to his youth, but Sylvanas is actually kind of idiotic. You can't help but be an idiotic character when your writers decide that starting a war with an otherwise superior foe when you're exhausted by a previous war is a good idea. That gets compounded when she spends pretty much the entire time alienating the other leaders of the Horde, whom she needs to win her war.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Yes, I'm talking about the suicide thing. She hated her own existence and she didn't care at all for the other Forsaken, did Anduin at any point regarded his entire race as meatshields and monsters?
    I personally thought that suicide was more about how the purpose she set her post death existence on was achieved and thus her reason for continueing to exist was no longer there and a desire for some semblance of peace was more the driving factor rather than self hatred or hatred of existence. That was my interpretation. But as she was effectively pulled back from the 'edge' by her magical suicide prevention angle buddies... that ending was reversed.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    War against hope and existence of other races. That's the message after Darnassus. And a sure way to ensure a defeat.
    The message sent was the last minute change due to other parties not taking action. It's an amusing subject how most people ignore the inaction of others which forces other actions to be used. That said it's another amusing detail when the story ignores other parties' actions that would lend some credit to the notion of the peace that would never last.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Leveling the place? The aim was to capture Sylvans and retake Lordaeron not destroy it, moral aims are not why he attacked Lordaeron.
    The thing is that if it was to end teh conflict then trying to arrest Sylvanas wouldn't work. Walking in with 3 other people to try and capture her was also rather woefully underestimating their target. The throne room itself could have been the extent of the target of demolition and would be a pittence extra after the damage they did GETTING to the front gates. I mean walking into 3+ blight based traps might make one wary about walking into yet ANOTHER room your prey has escaped into following a point where you're stalled by a seemingly thrown away pawn seeking death. Just saying... walking into ANY room at that point would have your typical dnd party slowing down to take 20's on all spot/listen/search checks.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    In disguise, yes. It was a Forsaken that said to Calia to reveal herself, and it was some of these Forsaken who started to leave for Stormguard.
    regardless it was still his idea to put this daughter of the Menethil blood line into the fray who then decided it was a good idea to try and rally forsaken against Sylvanas instead of just carrying on with the event. This is another notch for Anduin's naivety and ignorance... as well as a missed opportunity for the writers to have Sylvanas take advantage of the situation for manipulation points with the rest of the horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Genn believed that the Horde betrayed them, add that with the fact his neutral country was invaded with the aim of extermination by the very same person who is now Warchief, and later discovering Sylvanas was indeed not there to fight the Legion. All that together and its a different story from just attacking without any reason.
    I never said he didn't have reason to attack. the 7th legion and rogers are a different story. Genn taking charge of alliance military forces for his own petty revenge is never a good or acceptable idea... especially when he himself has no real position in the alliance command beyond "King in Exile" of a fallen nation.

    When that military force engaged another military force that was supposed to be in some sort of truce, that's when the whole shit show should have popped off instead of it just trailing into a plothole where Genn gets promoted into the line of the throne for stormwind, somehow.



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    From Anduin pow it does make sense to go easy on Genn, especially since at that time the Alliance believed the Horde betrayed them.
    it only makes sense because Anduin has a history of not handling these matters



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    You wouldn't blame them for killing the planet in order to start a war?
    only one source has stated the planet is actually dieing. No one has any real proof that azeroth losing the world soul would be a good or bad thing for the rest of us on azeroth.... this is an important fact to note. EVERYONE is just jumping on with Magni because he says he can talk to the planet... and it turns out he doesn't really understand her. We know for a fact that worlds don't need world souls for us to live on them and most worlds don't have them anyways



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    The Horde army was already fighting the Legion, Sylvanas only came for her own goals and the deal she made with a certain raid boss.
    at broken shore both the alliance and horde showed up with the explicit purpose of ousting the legion presence. On broken isles it is a different story cause everyone was made aware that broken shore was a shit show. No one pointed out the Alliance intel was bad and that was what drew everyone together. (Shaw was already replaced prior to broken shore and feeding bad intel) Horde side wasn't being vindictive over what would easily be seen as laying a trap (prolly because everyone knows know one would pull a fast one on varian in the faction and thus it would have been a third party) but this is the excuse people like to reference as justification for Alliance aggression.... "we got stuck in a trap so it's your fault so we're justified in fucking you up!"



    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Her goal was to get an infinite number of Valkyr and her deal with Helya. Not following the warchiefs orders? What do you mean?
    You said Broken SHORE not Broken ISLES. If broken shore, the only time she was on that island was when Vol'jin was still alive and pulling out with the horde as Vol'jin commanded.

    On the isles her story ends and she isn't seen again in the temple to Eyir and the exact details of the deal with Helya aren't fully disclosed, what is known is that she got the Soulcage through this deal.


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Then why lie? Why not actually try to discover the truth behind it? Instead of immediately go charging into a global war that won't be won?
    Same reason the alliance never bothers to send diplomats first anymore and instead goes in and destroys enemy goods/personnel as first contact these days.

    This story isn't going to end in the ideal way because that won't sell the game. That's why. As to why the lies at first that would maybe make sense though? To save face in front of the masses around at the time who are already believing the story without any proof. (this particular story was pretty awful in this area as the author really had a bias for one faction being 'good' and the other was 'bad' without really going into much details)


    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Why does it matter? The point is thats her plan in this war.
    The implied plan from various parties outside the game varies based on bias. Original plan might be argued as attempting to strengthen her personal shield/buffer from death given how that was a very immediate threat mere months prior to the current storyline. Factor in how the horde has repeatedly been fractured and still fighting pointless conflicts (Arthas, Garrosh, etc) and the alliance has just been dealing with... well the horde.... theoretically the far mor numerous and generally more tech savvy alliance as a whole is a very real threat in general if ANY figure head has a bone to pick with the horde as a whole. So an attack to try and force a real truce on their terms might make a bit of sense. But this idea went sideways as such stories are required to do to build 'drama' and we had a bunch of melodramatic elves going on about war on hope an war on life that people ran with. The original intent was to kill the desire to fight by destroying a symbol of hope. At least that's what the stories were saying, but people like to also dig up text about future plots that have yet to reach beyond initial planning stage in their details as imminent threats that can be acted on.

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