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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Fun fact: Adam Smith hated landlords and other forms of "rent-seeking", which is ironically mostly what we think of when we talk about "capitalism" today.

    "Real capitalism has never been tried!" kek.
    Sure, you can try an alternative version of capitalism where money is channeled through decentralized peer-to-peer systems instead of banks and most people are self-employed but good luck outcompeting industry giants with unfathomable economies of scale. Rent-seeking is too deeply entrenched to unseat without breaking down capitalism and rebuilding it from ground-up.

  2. #22
    Better to have capitalism and have too much of things and some of them go to waste, than having communism and starve.
    We saw communism, it sucked. Move on already
    and the geek shall inherit the earth

  3. #23
    The issue is that without capitalist economy you have no possibilty of economic calculation and socialism wastes even more resources because of that. Economic calculation is the only way to achieve the most rational allocation of resources.
    S.H.

  4. #24
    Well the whole system is dependant on us working, get paid and spend that money on as much useless shit we can. Not everyone does it, but enough people do. Its work, get paid, spend, work, get paid, spend. Rinse repeat until you die.

    Imagine if millions of people in the western world suddenly stopped spending money on stuff they didnt REALLY need.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Let's imagine a situation.

    The economy needs x amount of chairs made in a year to satisfy the demand for chairs. Capitalists don't know this in advance since they only have one signal to work with: price. Once the economy feels a scarcity of chairs, their price will go up and incentivize the manufacture of chairs.

    While the economy is not feeling a scarcity of chairs and their price has not yet gone up, money is being put to more productive uses. When the economy inevitably realizes that it does, in fact, need chairs, it's already far too late because all of the money is tied up in more productive ventures. That's where the financial system comes in.

    Banks, CEOs, CFOs channel money from less productive industries into the chairmaking industry. Chairs are made and everyone is happy. Or are they? While the money was being channeled through banks, paychecks were handed out to their employees and their bosses. That money could have gone to people who were actually manufacturing real goods or providing real services.

    Here's the deal:

    Capitalism is inefficient as fuck and it has a whole class of leeches (bankers) profiting off this inefficiency. If the economy was centrally planned, a well-educated person with a PhD would have used scientific methods to foresee the need for chairs and money would've been distributed to chairmakers in the first place instead of hoping that the market will regulate itself.

    It's stupid to claim that capitalism is efficient when it needs leeches (bankers) to service it lest the entire system collapses. How many people's labor is wasted working in the financial industry creating nothing of value and how much money is wasted on paychecks for those people?

    Let's put things in simpler terms:
    Communism put a man in space.
    Capitalism OBLITERATED the middle class to give the rich banker man a private yacht.
    All that what you sain is not all about system. A lot depends on human nature. Greed, hate, control etc.

  6. #26
    How can you ever know how many chairs you will need next year? And then extrapolate this to EVERYTHING. You would need hundreds of thousands of people to calculate it all and in the end they'd all be wrong anyway.

    The biggest flaw in capitalism is the disparity in pay between the workers and the CEO/management. It used to be 1:20 max, now it's 1:800 or more. This should be regulated as to cut down on excesses. But even with flaws, capitalism is better then all other systems.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    How can you ever know how many chairs you will need next year? And then extrapolate this to EVERYTHING. You would need hundreds of thousands of people to calculate it all and in the end they'd all be wrong anyway.

    The biggest flaw in capitalism is the disparity in pay between the workers and the CEO/management. It used to be 1:20 max, now it's 1:800 or more. This should be regulated as to cut down on excesses. But even with flaws, capitalism is better then all other systems.
    Yeah, right now we dont really have anything better to go with.

    The issue as you said is the difference between the working-man and the CEOs. The gap between filthy rich people and poor working people gets bigger and bigger.

    I dont think most people really care that others are rich, as long as they know they have a safe job, steady pay and can make a decent living.

    its sad knowing that more and more people are pushed into having atleast two jobs, were non of them are 100% or fully employed, with shit pay. People basically work just to work more.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Yeah, right now we dont really have anything better to go with.

    The issue as you said is the difference between the working-man and the CEOs. The gap between filthy rich people and poor working people gets bigger and bigger.

    I dont think most people really care that others are rich, as long as they know they have a safe job, steady pay and can make a decent living.

    its sad knowing that more and more people are pushed into having atleast two jobs, were non of them are 100% or fully employed, with shit pay. People basically work just to work more.
    What happens when you have to many low level workers. Don't worry our plan is that immigration will fix it by doubling to tripling their number to diminish their value even more.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    What happens when you have to many low level workers. Don't worry our plan is that immigration will fix it by doubling to tripling their number to diminish their value even more.
    yeah...

    Personally I find it really difficult the whole idea that we need to work our asses of our whole. Like thats the way to a happy life. Dont get me wrong, I do my share and contribute, but I really dont want to look back on my life knowing that I worked more than I lived.

    We grow up learning that we must take education, we must quickly get a job and then work hard our whole life. Just to get money and spend it on tons of stuff we dont really need, but buys anyway.

    Work is good and important, but a fair middle ground is better.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    yeah...

    Personally I find it really difficult the whole idea that we need to work our asses of our whole. Like thats the way to a happy life. Dont get me wrong, I do my share and contribute, but I really dont want to look back on my life knowing that I worked more than I lived.

    We grow up learning that we must take education, we must quickly get a job and then work hard our whole life. Just to get money and spend it on tons of stuff we dont really need, but buys anyway.

    Work is good and important, but a fair middle ground is better.
    People who are useful and valued get the middle life like tradesmen. Useless people have to make up for their lack of skills by working harder to fill that gap.

    It would be rather easy for me to survive in comfort working part time for example but I decided to have a rather large family and I enjoy the finer things so I put in my 35 hours a week.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    People who are useful and valued get the middle life like tradesmen. Useless people have to make up for their lack of skills by working harder to fill that gap.

    It would be rather easy for me to survive in comfort working part time for example but I decided to have a rather large family and I enjoy the finer things so I put in my 35 hours a week.
    Well 35 hours a week is not that bad, normal in the country I live in. Though its being challenged these days, by people who want people to work more and harder for less.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Well 35 hours a week is not that bad, normal in the country I live in. Though its being challenged these days, by people who want people to work more and harder for less.
    It is why I oppose immigration. Labor is only worth what the market demands of it. With automation closing down most of the unskilled labor market we should be letting it naturally diminish to sustainable levels. Rather then doing so we keep depressing the wages by adding more and more people in a already over crowded system.

    No one cares about working harder they care about getting the job done the cheapest. Your only as valuable as the person willing and capable of doing your job for the cheapest.

  13. #33
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hynx View Post
    even a homeless man today, has a better life than an honest middle to lower class farmer from the 1400's. the homeless person may not feel the value
    that isn't because current society wants him to live better, this comparison makes no sense
    if a middle to lower class farmer from the 1400s was living today, he would be living far better than current middle to lower class, and if a homeless man was living in the 1400s, he would be 'living' worse than homeless back then (which was usually dead)
    This is like saying that u eat tastier food than Ceaser ever did because u are richer, u aren't, if Ceaser exist in modern age with all his power and wealth he would live 10 times better than ur life can ever be, only reason he lived the life he had is technology limit, not because he didn't want but because it was literally impossible to
    the same for ur comparison, farmers lived 'worse' because there was no other option, if there was, their lives would been better
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  14. #34
    Central planning and rationing doesn't work. It relies on absolute perfect data and quite a bit of social engineering which stifles innovation.

    How can a centrally planned economy predict the demand and need for smartphones if smartphones haven't been invented yet? It can't, so it will neither invest in their development nor in their production. Furthermore it will divert resources into antiquated technologies stifling social and technological development. The problem behind the massive technological development gap that emerged between the East and the West after the 1950s (although hints of the gap were already there by the 1940s, during which the industrial output of capitalist nations already exceeded that of communist nations).

    But yes, Capitalism left to its own devices is wasteful, because people are wasteful in the absence of scarcity. This is where governments are ought to step in to increase efficiency via regulation.

    You trim the fat, don't throw out the whole ham.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    The delusional ramblings of someone who I'm guessing has never actually tried to accomplish something meaningful in their life. The chair example is hilarious. Communism proposes what: a planning committee which sets the number of chairs each year? I'm sure that will end well for people who want to sit. Results speak for themselves - capitalism isn't perfect, should never be used in place of an ethical compass, and yet is a necessary component for any entity which wishes to be economically relevant.
    There are alternatives to capitalism AND communism.... but well "The delusional ramblings of someone who I'm guessing has never actually tried to accomplish something meaningful in their life"... okay I guess, stay in your binary world

    We only have a few decades to go if we continue wasting resources and polluting like we currenty are. But I dont care, I have no children and I'll probably die before it really happens.

    I don't even talk about climate changes, just plain pollution... The plastic continent is a thing, you can't ignore that fact. Even if you vote Trump.

    I've given up, people are such idiots anyway. Humanity DESERVES to be obliterated.

    Don't forget that capitilists countries are rich because all their shit is made in "communists" countries. Why are Iphones not made in your magnificient country but in China ?
    Last edited by vashe9; 2019-04-04 at 10:21 AM.

  16. #36
    Love seeing idiots saying Capitalism is bad yet they want a Socialist system where you just hand over your keys to the government and let them do everything.

    Capitalism means you own the company and you keep the funds, it's private. Companies invest that money into projects that create more jobs for people.


    People here are braindead idiots.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by nice11 View Post
    Love seeing idiots saying Capitalism is bad yet they want a Socialist system where you just hand over your keys to the government and let them do everything.

    Capitalism means you own the company and you keep the funds, it's private. Companies invest that money into projects that create more jobs for people.


    People here are braindead idiots.
    Yeah because money is the only thing that matters, of course... Who cares about wasted resources, who cares about pollution, who cares about poor people not being able to even eat, who cares if CHILDREN make the shit you sell. Indeed "Mr more intelligent than us"

    Damnit, you people can't even see that we can't continue like this indefinitely ? Is that so HARD to grasp ?

    No one said that URSS bloody communism is the solution, no one...
    Last edited by vashe9; 2019-04-04 at 10:29 AM.

  18. #38
    But still better than communism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    In other countries like Canada the population has chosen to believe in hope, peace and tolerance. This we can see from the election of the Honourable Justin Trudeau who stood against the politics of hate and divisiveness.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Shibito View Post
    But still better than communism.
    holy shit !!!Because communism and capitalism are the only two possible solutions... What did you learn at school??? oh wait... nevermind.........

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by igualitarist View Post
    Thats why government influence distorts the economy, thats not a flaw of capitalism, thats a flaw caused by an agent outside the market system (the government).

    In a pure capitalist system less efficent milk producers would just go broke.
    Government intervention protects the economy from the volatility and unpredictable nature of the market.

    Without the government intervention you would get wide swings between over supply and over demand. You've also assumed that there are people available or willing to rapidly switch between what they are doing now and cattle farming.

    Without government intervention the supply line for wide parts of the wider economy would be completely unreliable, it would drive up costs, completely hobble innovation and fundamentally break the economy.

    Capitalism requires government intervention not only to protect the core principals but also to make sure t doesn't completely consume itself by lurching from one crisis to another.

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