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  1. #421
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppynacho View Post
    Edward Snowden didnt damage national security. You can't blame the witness for a crime he didnt commit. Spying is illegal, just because everybody is doing it, doesnt make it legal. Thats why you need a warrant to wiretap somebodies phone. Oh wait? But its national security and we make our own laws. America is a big boy nation that is about the be a 3th world county that can't even take care of it's own citizen with basic (mental) health care, Is in political chaos and is in extreme unpayable debts. Be proud of the fake american wet dream. You live in a big boy bubble. America is affraid of Russia and China and always has been and it's noticable through the actions.
    Sure he did. He agreed to do contract work for the NSA. Then later saw an opportunity to play hero.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Strangebrew View Post
    You have as much right to spy on them as north korea as the right to spy on you, you're not the good guys you delude yourself into thinking you are.
    If America wasn't at the front line defending liberal democracy you wouldn't be one.

    Don't think your Norwegian values protect you.

    They don't.

    People didn't stop conquering their neighbors because they decided to turn a new leaf. They did it because the world's most powerful country became a liberal democracy and built the post-World War II international order that largely put a stop to that kind of thing.

    So yes, we are very much the good guys and the fact you can't differentiate us from North Korea is a "you" problem.

  3. #423
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    Wow what an intelligent argument. All the people who have endured multiple surgeries, ridicule from friends and family, all to become the person they feel they are inside...all they need is to hear this logic and I'm sure they will all change their minds! I can't wait to see them all recant their ways. I'm glad you thought long and hard about their lives, worldviews and struggles.
    DNA doesnt lie. Or are you one of those science deniers? IDGAF how many surgeries they have, doesn't change the science, doesn't change their DNA. Are you suggesting that feels holds a greater sway than science? Be careful how you answer. I dont care if they 'change' their mind. Nor, do I care about their lives, worldviews or struggles... they are irrelevant... because DNA > feels.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    If America wasn't at the front line defending liberal democracy you wouldn't be one.
    Yeah, we can clearly tell by how you go after people who expose your dirty laundry and how you treat your own citizens, and what a shithole of a society america is, lmao.

    Also a few innocent deaths here and there all over the world, but we can gloss over that.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Sure he did. He agreed to do contract work for the NSA. Then later saw an opportunity to play hero.
    "to play hero" leaving everything behind, to live in Russia and be on the run for the injustice what America has to offer. Yeah. He did that to be a hero.

  6. #426
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloppynacho View Post
    "to play hero" leaving everything behind, to live in Russia and be on the run for the injustice what America has to offer. Yeah. He did that to be a hero.
    Yeah leaving behind targets and so called loved ones from the big bad evil government he ran to Russia to save his own ass.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post

    Assange is going to jail because he facilitated a crime. More broadly, he is an intelligence asset of Russia. .
    Just in case any non-americans wonder why Skroe and other Americans are obsessively paranoid about Russia, it is because the Democrat-controlled news networks in the US endlessly run stories unsubstantiated stories about Russia being responsible for almost literally everything bad that happens. People like Rachael Maddow are the rough Democrat equivalent of crazies like Alex Jones. It is basically the new McCarthyism. As with people who watch Fox News it is basically a waste of time talking to them, they sound quite insane. The recent court finding that there essentially was no connection between Trump and Putin has actually made this problem worse as the Democrat networks desperately try to re-establsih their lost credibility with even more lurid and far-fetched stories.

    This is the not to say that Putin isn't a very evil man, or that Trump isn't a horrible human being, but the grounds they are vulnerable (eg corruption, warmongering) are things the corporate democrats can't attack them as generally speaking they are just as guilty of those things.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    liberal democracy
    You're neither liberal (5% world population, 25% of world's prisoners) nor are you a democracy - you're a Republic, buddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    So yes, we are very much the good guys and the fact you can't differentiate us from North Korea is a "you" problem.
    North Korea didn't slaughter half a million Iraqi and Afghan civilians. They are better than you.

  9. #429
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    You're neither liberal (5% world population, 25% of world's prisoners) nor are you a democracy - you're a Republic, buddy.



    North Korea didn't slaughter half a million Iraqi and Afghan civilians. They are better than you.
    No they just force millions of people to live as slaves and starve to death believing their leader is a god.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    If America wasn't at the front line defending liberal democracy you wouldn't be one.

    Don't think your Norwegian values protect you.

    They don't.

    People didn't stop conquering their neighbors because they decided to turn a new leaf. They did it because the world's most powerful country became a liberal democracy and built the post-World War II international order that largely put a stop to that kind of thing.

    So yes, we are very much the good guys and the fact you can't differentiate us from North Korea is a "you" problem.
    Leader of the freeworld yet incarcerated 1% of its own population in jail. You do know that the whole north korea/USA thing has begon when USA started planting nukes in south korea after the korean war? While north korea reached out 5 times to the USA for peace and the USA didnt even bother to reply. You do know that right? Or the Cold War when America started planting nukes in Turkeye that could reach Russia and then Russia planted nukes in cuba as a reaction. You see the irony here and then call Russia the bad guys! Lmao. The irony.
    Last edited by Sloppynacho; 2019-04-11 at 02:32 PM.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they just force millions of people to live as slaves and starve to death believing their leader is a god.
    Sure, but those are their internal affairs. They keep to themselves. I believe in the Prime Directive.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they just force millions of people to live as slaves and starve to death believing their leader is a god.
    So basically america? Gotcha.

  13. #433
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Thanks for your uncalled for bigotry, I guess? You also call married people by their maiden names?
    Calling a fraud a fraud is now bigotry? Calling a male a male is bigotry? Really?

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    If America wasn't at the front line defending liberal democracy you wouldn't be one.
    Skroe, never say stuff like this. It just insults everyone's intelligence. Any one can go and check up the number of dictatorships/theocracies the US supports directly with cash, weapons and sometimes troops. You can google it in seconds.

    If you are going to make things up, at least hide it a bit better. Occasionally you say interesting things but it is difficult to read someone who is nakedly attempting to deceive you with such a poorly constructed piece of deception.

  15. #435
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strangebrew View Post
    So basically america? Gotcha.
    No basically more utter bullshit spewed by you. Yes we are the good guys.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No basically more utter bullshit spewed by you. Yes we are the good guys.
    You keep telling yourself that, i'm sure it makes you sleep soundly at night while your country continue to bomb innocent human beings into oblivion, while throwing innocent people in jail left and right, while people have to work as slaves to just afford breadcrumbs for themselves and their children while the richer get's even richer, while you continue supporting and having tight relations to straight up dictatorships, because who can pass up some of that sweet oil huh?

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No basically more utter bullshit spewed by you. Yes we are the good guys.
    If you are the good guys, why are you trying to arrest someone who was just releasing the truth about your country. No one has suggested Assange was making anything up.

    "We are the good guys but we imprison people who tell the truth about us", does not sound very plausible. It makes you sound like North Korea.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No basically more utter bullshit spewed by you. Yes we are the good guys.
    No you're not. You've invaded dozens of nations, slaughtered tens of millions of people, economically exploited hundreds of millions, armed terrorists, deposed democratically elected governments, propped up dictators, installed black sites, are the only nation to ever use nukes on another nation, practiced slavery, committed genocide, and committed basically any war crime in the book.

  19. #439
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    DNA doesnt lie. Or are you one of those science deniers? IDGAF how many surgeries they have, doesn't change the science, doesn't change their DNA. Are you suggesting that feels holds a greater sway than science? Be careful how you answer. I dont care if they 'change' their mind. Nor, do I care about their lives, worldviews or struggles... they are irrelevant... because DNA > feels.
    Again, Theseus's ship argument. If you have a boy, and you slowly replace every body part with that of a girl, at what point does the boy become a girl? When you swap genitalia? The brain? The hormones? Does literally every part need to be swapped? If so, why? If not, then surely there is more to gender than simple biology.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    You also call black people you don't respect n*gger?
    Of course not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    But she did. Like the July 12, 2007, Baghdad airstrike and the Granai massacre.
    Collateral damage happens in wars. The US has prosecuted war crimes committed during the wars of the last decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    But hey, you'd probably also justified the My Lai Massacre back in the day.
    No that was a war crime.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    What else do you think the wars were about but making US weapon's manufacturers and contractors rich?
    You seem to have a warped perspective of the political power and economic importance of US defense contractors. Globally, their big compared to other defense firms. In terms of comparison to other businesses, they're pipsqueaks, and their market is a rounding error.

    The defense industry is the most tightly regulated one in the US. It is an industry which can only sell to the US government, or countries the US approves on a case by case basis. And moreover, time and again, selling lots of little things is more proftible than selling a few big things.

    I will offer a direct comparison. The F-35. Last year, Lockheed Marin made some fraction of the $10 billion the US and its partners spent on buying about 80 F-35s. Let's say they made $8 billion of that $10 billion to keep it simple.

    Now by contrast, Apple made $80 billion in the 3 months between October and December on iPhone sales. Producing millions of phones and selling them for $700-$1200 generates significantly more revenue than Lockheed Marin building 80 expensive fighters, or ordinance manufactuer making 300 bombs. In fact, the US Defense budget in 2018 had a historically large "emergency purchase" of ordinance after the wars depleted stockpiles. How much did it amount to? About $5 billion. It turns out, that while $100,000 bombs are a lot of money, buying 500 of them doesn't really add up all that much compared to say, consumer goods.

    The US defense sector dominates the global arms trade, but the net global business they do, per year, is about $200 billion, which sounds like a lot, but is nothing compared to the broader US economy. Apple could buy half the US defense industry with its cash on hand, for crying out loud. Lockheed Martin's annual revenues of $51 billion are about half of what Apple will make in a quarter from all products and services.

    If the US was really going to engage in military conflicts for economic interests, it should never bother: would make more money off of selling consumer goods to the people living there than it would buying bombs and bombers to bomb them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    I know you don't give a shit about non Americans being slaughtered, but at least be honest. You're not that stupid to believe in the nationalistic bullshit muh "war on terror" (although, not being American is probably and act of terror in your eyes). You're just lying.
    I actually regard the War on Terror as the greatest strategic miscalculation committed by a major military power since Napoleon decided to march on Russia. It's actually that bad. The US squandered half its relative military power on it. The New Cold War is going to be a lot harder for the United States because we convinced ourselves to (1) nation build Afghanistan rather than just do an in-and-out special operations retaliation after 9/11, (2) invade and occupy Iraq, and (3) treat terrorism as a military concern, rather than the law enforcement / intelligence / occasional special operations concern it truly is.

    The US lost the War on Terror. It never should have fought it. And we'll be nationally paying the consequences of it for years to come.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    There is another, arguably hypocritical but still very real point to keeping illegal or unethical operations completely under wraps (aside from operational security): legitimacy and respect are artifacts of perception more than anything else; there is an immense difference between "we probably do illegal and shady stuff that you don't know about" and "we publicly break our own laws and defecate on our proclaimed principles" - the first is deniable and does not directly erode the rule of law or legitimacy of institutions (and is only of concern to a tiny minority), while the second is toxic to the appropriate functions of public government (and affects everyone). This is true regardless of what position you hold on what a government should be doing.

    In this respect, Obama was far worse than George W. Bush; Bush did a number of things that were damaging to America when they were revealed, Obama then normalized them - it should come as no surprise that Trump now wallows and revels in lawbreaking and abuse of power while a large segment of the American population cheering him, because his performance is just following the course set by his predecessors (which doesn't change that it is a shameful disgrace that is in turn even more damaging to American power, effectiveness, and legitimacy than anything his predecessors did, and events are likely continue on a similar worsening course for the near future or longer).
    Yep I entirely agree. That's an excellent point I hadn't considered.

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