Ion wants to improve class representation in M+

[Queen of Hamsters]

They should focus less on balance and more on fun.

People are always going to whinge, always going to try and blame their own shortcomings on something else (like overpowered specs or unfriendly fights for their class) but in the end, homogenizing and making everything perfectly balanced simply never works.

Even now that classes are at most a couple percentages behind one-another, we have players going "THIS SPEC IS USELESS!!!"... Just, give it a rest, make classes fun again.

Reroll the classes to MoP and we're golden!

[ydraw]

The fact that they think affixes are the issue shows they have zero clue and don't really care that much.

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I think the community simply needs to accept the "perfect" balance simply isn't possible, and that at the highest level only a handful of things are ever going to be competitive, even a .1% difference is huge when you're coming down to potentially seconds. It's a good thing only a tiny portion of the community ever plays at that level, but at the same time tons of people like to pretend they do so, sucks for them I guess.
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What are you even talking about with 0.1% diffference? The difference in AOE between a bad AOE spec like Affliction and a good one like Outlaw is more like 200%. Nobody's asking for perfect but I think it's fair to expect that they can do better than that.

[Th3Scourge]

Rather this post is stupid

If i am assembling a m+ group and its eitherr A) A pug so all people are random disposable numbers to me B) I have a guild where i can choose from variety of players of more or same skill level

why should i choose the holy priest over restro?
Are you also buying the higher priced auction at the auction house?

So you would never for a group with any class that performs 1-2% less than another?

Mindsets like this is why we end up with homogenised classes

[ydraw]

Of course there's a meta, but this has no bearing on keys below 18-20 other than community perception

Absolute elitist rubbish.

Can you really not understand how shrouding to skip a pack and therefore the last reaping is useful even on keys below 18? Because if not you're beyond help.

Composition matters at every level, it's dismissive and elitist in the extreme when people say nothing matters below 18, we know what you really mean when you say retarded shit like that.

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So you would never for a group with any class that performs 1-2% less than another?

Mindsets like this is why we end up with homogenised classes

Imagine thinking the difference is only 1-2%.



Look at those rogues doing 1% more damage than the boomkin

[Grmmppff]

Well, tbh rogue mostly needs a slight aoe-dps-nerf. Apart from that, here's a few ideas that'd help with class diversity while still working imho with the class fantasy.

Mage: Mass-Invisibility - Create a sphere that hides allies within it from enemy-detection. Lasts as long as shroud.
Feral/Guardian-Druids: Nalorakk - 5min cd. Summon a Bear Loa that will taunt all enemies within ~10y. About as strong/lasts as long as Earth Elemental.
Holy/Disc Priest: Holy-Blind - Blind all enemies within the area(15y circle) with holy light, stunning them for 5sec.
Shadowpriest: Shadow-Field - Shroud all enemies within the area(15y circle) in Darkness, making them unable to detect nearby players. Essentially a one-pack-shroud.

Hmmm, guess I could think of more stuff for Ret/holy Pala, fury/arms warr, frost/uh dk, enh shaman, Monkheals,priestheals and guardian druids, but the aforementioned should already help a lot with diversity

[Th3Scourge]

Absolute elitist rubbish.

Can you really not understand how shrouding to skip a pack and therefore the last reaping is useful even on keys below 18? Because if not you're beyond help.

Composition matters at every level, it's dismissive and elitist in the extreme when people say nothing matters below 18, we know what you really mean when you say retarded shit like that.

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Imagine thinking the difference is only 1-2%.



Look at those rogues doing 1% more damage than the boomkin

No, that's anything but elitism. Follow me here.

No rogue? use invis pots

Composition is less relevant at lower keys, it has very little bearing. You don't need double rogue, prot war, resto druid for ever single group.

Yes, imagine my shock that there are some outliers. Outlaw is very strong right now and will eventually get tuned. Like how Demo locks were ridiculously OP in 8.1 before the EP nerf.

[threads]

they could start by not allowing class stacking in mdi.

[ydraw]

No, that's anything but elitism. Follow me here.

No rogue? use invis pots

Composition is less relevant at lower keys, it has very little bearing. You don't need double rogue, prot war, resto druid for ever single group.

No, actually, it's not less relevant at all. The same advantages certain specs bring are equally applicable at every key level.

Yes, imagine my shock that there are some outliers. Outlaw is very strong right now and will eventually get tuned. Like how Demo locks were ridiculously OP in 8.1 before the EP nerf.

Why lie and say it's 1-2% then?

[Thelxi]

In the same breath he is saying that they want specs to have distinct strengths and weaknesses, so whatever it's just the same old inconsequential drivel.

[ydraw]

In the same breath he is saying that they want specs to have distinct strengths and weaknesses, so whatever it's just the same old inconsequential drivel.

Eventually they need to realise that one of those things can't be AOE capability. For better or worse, M+ has always been about AOE damage. That can't be a niche if you're going to base a whole mode of content around it. Every spec needs the ability to compete on both burst and sustained AOE. The classes don't have to be the same for that to happen, they just need to work harder at balancing numbers.

[Jazzhands]

The fact that they think affixes are the issue shows they have zero clue and don't really care that much.

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What are you even talking about with 0.1% diffference? The difference in AOE between a bad AOE spec like Affliction and a good one like Outlaw is more like 200%. Nobody's asking for perfect but I think it's fair to expect that they can do better than that.

They certainly can balance better, but they'll never achieve decent class representation in the MDI. At the level of the MDI, even the tiniest advantage is going to be used, always. They could make outlaw only .1% better than every other spec and they would still be the go to class, because in the MDI you only need to be .0001 seconds faster than the other teams so even a .1% advantage is something they have to use because it can make that difference happen.

Basically, the MDI will never be balanced, even slightly.. They could certainly make things better for everyone else, but the MDI is forever doomed to be bland because there will likely almost never be any decent class variation. There might be a little, but never enough to make it fun to watch.

[ydraw]

They certainly can balance better, but they'll never achieve decent class representation in the MDI. At the level of the MDI, even the tiniest advantage is going to be used, always. They could make outlaw only .1% better than every other spec and they would still be the go to class, because in the MDI you only need to be .0001 seconds faster than the other teams so even a .1% advantage is something they have to use because it can make that difference happen.

Basically, the MDI will never be balanced, even slightly.. They could certainly make things better for everyone else, but the MDI is forever doomed to be bland because there will likely almost never be any decent class variation. There might be a little, but never enough to make it fun to watch.

And basically nobody would care if it was only affecting the absolute top level. But the current balance issues affect people playing at every level. Nobody would be complaining if there was only a 1% difference or even a 5% difference. In reality the differences are more like 50-60% difference in overall damage which is hugely significant at any key level.

[Ealyssa]

adding stuff back to classes that allows them to do things would be a start.

just, plain, NO.

It's because rogues can do things, it's because monk can do things. That we are where we are now.

Giving other things to other classes wont solve shroud being OP as fuck. period. And even if blizzard can come with something even more retarded than "hey let this classe alow the whole group to skip trash packs they don't like", MDI will just stack the new FotM.

You CANT have balance when every class has something different. That's the whole problem. You either accept it or you homogenise even more. Which nobody want.

Even limiting classes to one per group won't change the absolute fact that a meta will still emerge with only 5 specs played. That's just how it is at the highest level.

[Jazzhands]

And basically nobody would care if it was only affecting the absolute top level. But the current balance issues affect people playing at every level. Nobody would be complaining if there was only a 1% difference or even a 5% difference. In reality the differences are more like 50-60% difference in overall damage which is hugely significant at any key level.

You clearly didn't even understand my original post, or just chose not to actually read it. You cherry picked something I said about the MDI and applied it to M+ in general. You really shouldn't do that.

I completely agree with you in that M+ in general needs to be better balanced, I say this in the last line of my original post, that you conveniently didn't include when you quoted me.

"That being said, Blizzard does need to do something about the classes that are just shit in general for any M+. It's amazing to me how they sit around and let classes basically suffer, even a bandaid is better than months of nothing."

[Xar226]

How exactly do you think Ion and his team will go about doing this?

Incorrectly.

I'm not a Blizzard hater, but given the comment that they will consider it when adding affixes I see they're already going about it the wrong way. Even if they could completely succeed in making certain classes the FOTAffix, I don't consider that an improvement. Feeling like shit 4/6 weeks until one'saffixes roll around is little better than feeling like shit if one doesn't reroll FOTM.

There are a few outlier abilities they could probably nerf or remove that would help, like rogue shroud or DH darkness. Whether they could get away with that without immense community backlash, I'm not sure. The other alternative is to go the other way and homogenize classes or distribute those abilities as consumables a la Bloodlust/Drums and even battle rez now, which would face its own backlash and go against their stated design philosophy entirely. Problem is, niches don't work well if "being good at M+" isn't your niche and increasing M+ representation is the goal. I've also heard a suggestion of adding M+ talents like PVP talents that could grant those really powerful abilities, but that's just another way of homogenizing. Maybe it's a better one though.

But really, I'm not sure it matters because the biggest problem isn't actually the class balance, it's the player perception. The kind of differences we're talking about rarely matter until you start pushing over +15 keys, which is an incredibly small segment of the population. Unfortunately, players in lower keys mimic this and FOTM chasers promote it. With a set of good players, I can't think of a single spec in the game that you can't chest your weekly with. And on the flip side, if you really want to be the guy pushing the highest possible keys then you're probably going to pick specs with a 1% advantage anyway. MDI wasn't 90% double rogue + WW because nobody else could succeed, it was because they're literally trying to eek out seconds in a race. There's a limit to how closely you can balance things without just making them the same.

[ydraw]

But really, I'm not sure it matters because the biggest problem isn't actually the class balance, it's the player perception. The kind of differences we're talking about rarely matter until you start pushing over +15 keys

Completely false. Balance is the issue and class balance affects keys of any level. Rogues and DH are just as overpowered at +2 as they are at +15. You simply think that content is beneath you, but for the people doing that it's just as important as it is for you.

[Charge me Doctor]

this
the problem is not that rogue have shroud, the problem is the other classes are so gutted that they have nothing bring to the table that its equal

Or that there is too many encounters that benefit from shroud

[Seramore]

Ehhh? It's definitely a non-issue for standard +10 runs and such.

Meta being an issue for more dedicated M+ players is not an issue that can be really solved - there will always be meta, no matter what they nerf or buff there will always be an optimal way to do various activities in WoW, especially for small group activities. At best Blizz can do what it does every time, whip out the nerfbat and go wild at the worst offenders.

Overall the question is how many players are really affected by this meta and my hunch is - not that many really.

Again, just because keys are fine with most comps doesn't mean that there isn't an issue with the meta classes. As others have said, the advantage that these classes have still holds true no matter what level your key is.

If you genuinely think there isn't a problem with classes like Rogues and Demon Hunters compared to other classes then you have no idea what you're talking about.

As a side note, with all the discussion about skips I really wonder how it would go if Blizzard introduced a mechanic where people would have skips without requiring potions (ie: potions/an item would be added in M+ which would allow that without requiring any purchases) for skips would work out. Rogues slam in M+ damage wise, but it'd definitely reduce their utility a bit imo.

[gallamann]

As a frost mage, here is what I think... Shroud is going to get nuked from orbit, just like they nuked the everliving shit out of frost mage slows. At the same time they will "reduce" their AoE.

Blizzard is incapable of thinking. Which means incapable of balancing.

First and foremost Blizzard needs to dump this mindset of world of meleecraft. Honestly there isn't any punishment for being melee, yet as a caster my DPS gets to be shit because mechanics force movement which interrupts casting. Bring 3 caster DPS, huh all of them have 26+ second cool down on interrupts.

Bottom line, they nerf a couple specs. Get ready to "bend over" Outlaw.

[Xalvia]

allow only one per class, forces teams to build more diverse comps and gets rid of this ugly double rogue madness