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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    - etc, etc
    It must be hard for you to be wrong. Good luck spending months trying to gear your all mage DPS team just to progress through MC.
    "For years now I've found it to be a such a strange honor to be followed around the internet by expert interpreters, who take plain words in English and replace them with other, more loaded words in English." - Posted by Zarhym

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Classic Patchwerk required 12,000 raid dps to kill at the berserk timer (4.32M health in 360 seconds).

    If everybody were able to do 1000-1200 dps over the fight then the boss would have died in about two minutes. Do you have any videos from Classic showing Patchwerk dying that fast?

    I only found videos where the boss dies at or shortly after the berserk timer. Assuming you have 25 dps in the raid, that is an average of 480 dps per dps-specced player (so ignoring tanks and healers).
    Classic won't be like vanilla, everything have been theory crafted for year. People didn't have access to all the informations we have today, few knew how to optimally gear and play, world buff (except ony and zg) were almost not used in raid, same thing for flask and most odd buffs you can get.

    And even if some were able to put some high number, there also was the threat issue. Nowadays hardcore guild mostly either use a dual wielding fury warrior with full threat gear or a druid because it's the only way to keep aggro.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    Classic won't be like vanilla, everything have been theory crafted for year. People didn't have access to all the informations we have today, few knew how to optimally gear and play, world buff (except ony and zg) were almost not used in raid, same thing for flask and most odd buffs you can get.

    And even if some were able to put some high number, there also was the threat issue. Nowadays hardcore guild mostly either use a dual wielding fury warrior with full threat gear or a druid because it's the only way to keep aggro.
    Also keep in mind that a ton of that is done based on private servers, which we already know have some flaws that do cause some anomalies. It's kind of one of those oddball deals where it is generally right, but there are reasons why there are some variances between what we've seen guilds do on private servers and when the game was live.

    Also keep in mind there is a difference in BIS Naxx and progressing through Naxx. No one could pull those numbers progressing through Naxx, and there just wasn't a ton of videos of people in full Naxx gear because the time was so short going into TBC that most people didn't get it. We had a couple on Shattered Hand that I can remember ( there was a paladin and a warrior I know of) but most guilds just didn't get enough runs in by the end to get that many people fully geared.

    Now I'm going back nearly 15 years, so it's not crystal clear, but I can remember posts of people hitting 1k and people accusing them of photo shopping it. So the numbers people are tossing out in here were definitely not normal.

    Also I've seen people post " why would you take X when I can take another X? " and the answer is simple. There is only so much gear to go around and everyone is after roughly the same things in Naxx. An extra Warrior/Mage/Rogue in theory should be better, but if he can't get the gear and you are throwing the rest away, you haven't really done yourself a ton of good.

  4. #44


    Fury alliance war, R14 weapons, Naxx/AQ/BWL gear, full buffed, on Patchwerk, made in Vanilla.

    He is topping 928 dps.

    Just to put into perspective the numbers given on this thread, which are completely exaggerated for some except on gimmick encounters.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Healasouhait View Post


    Fury alliance war, R14 weapons, Naxx/AQ/BWL gear, full buffed, on Patchwerk, made in Vanilla.

    He is topping 928 dps.

    Just to put into perspective the numbers given on this thread, which are completely exaggerated for some except on gimmick encounters.
    "fully buffed" yet I don't see any world buff.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    "fully buffed" yet I don't see any world buff.
    There's the Juju one. Thought he had more than that however, haven't checked it before posting my bad.

    With the the other buffs, you can aim around 1k dps. Not the 1k2 as seen previously.

  7. #47
    Show us fights that are not Patch and last longer than 5 min. In fact DPS over an entire raid!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Healasouhait View Post
    There's the Juju one. Thought he had more than that however, haven't checked it before posting my bad.

    With the the other buffs, you can aim around 1k dps. Not the 1k2 as seen previously.
    World buffs would increase that guys damage by 40% atleast. 320 AP (DM & Ony) 10% crit (Songflower & Ony) and 15 % stats from ZG is a huge increase. Also that guild is not using annihilator and curse of recklessness to further reduce the bosses armor, which would also be a big boost.

  9. #49
    Youtube lilos patchwerk 1550 dps vanilla,ofc he had full naxx gear but still.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Healasouhait View Post
    There's the Juju one. Thought he had more than that however, haven't checked it before posting my bad.

    With the the other buffs, you can aim around 1k dps. Not the 1k2 as seen previously.
    Juju is not a world buff. It's an item in your inventory, aka consumable. This guy doesnt even have full consumables.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    It must be hard for you to be wrong. Good luck spending months trying to gear your all mage DPS team just to progress through MC.
    I just really dislike people who spend most of their freetime on something, doesnt care about the outcome of it, and tried to make other people think that it's ok. It's not ok to waste yours and other peoples' time.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3000/CL15 @ 3200/CL14 | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | 256GB Samsung EVO 850 PRO | 2TB WD2003FZEX | 2TB WD20EFRX | Creative Sound Blaster Z | Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | Corsair RM650x | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | Tt eSPORTS POSSEIDON | Kingston HyperX Cloud II | BenQ XL2411T

  11. #51
    Just read every post in this thread...

    Nowhere closer to a real answer.

    I’m gonna have to wait for classic to separate which lunatics are the right ones.
    Reminders of what vanilla was like: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...nilla-was-like

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Atherions View Post
    World buffs would increase that guys damage by 40% atleast. 320 AP (DM & Ony) 10% crit (Songflower & Ony) and 15 % stats from ZG is a huge increase. Also that guild is not using annihilator and curse of recklessness to further reduce the bosses armor, which would also be a big boost.
    Armor decreasing debuffs didn't stack in vanilla. They do on pservers, which is 1 reason that everyone has skewed view. World buffs are also in reality much less accessible, with global cooldowns for example.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    Also keep in mind that a ton of that is done based on private servers, which we already know have some flaws that do cause some anomalies..
    The flaws of private servers (while relevant for comparing dps numbers to 2004-2006) are pretty irrelevant on the point of theorycrafting. All the best gear is known, all the buff item tricks and strategies are known and tested, boss mechanics are well known and kill strategies are tried and tested and all of this information is available to everyone. The differences on private servers include things like slight variances in proc rates or mechanics, slight variances on very simple boss mechanics, slight variances in spell batching, slight variances in cast clipping.

    Just slight variances, with most theorycrafting already being based on original Vanilla numbers and then tweaking approach for any known private server variances (where applicable). Simple stuff like knowing what gear you're aiming for based on your spec are more refined now than they have ever been, unlike any other patch in WoW there are no unknowns going into new content, because it's not new at all.

    Pretty much anyone can within a couple of seconds find out exactly what gearing path to follow for every point of progression within the game, it's far more clear and straight forward than in Battle For Azeroth, and easier to theorycraft due to vastly more simplistic combat. And bosses are very simple mechanically compared to modern WoW, the only learning curve will be threat management and target co-ordination (which is important pre WOTLK).
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2019-04-08 at 01:08 AM.
    I7 6700K : 16GB DDR4 3000 : GTX1070 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Classic Patchwerk required 12,000 raid dps to kill at the berserk timer (4.32M health in 360 seconds).

    If everybody were able to do 1000-1200 dps over the fight then the boss would have died in about two minutes. Do you have any videos from Classic showing Patchwerk dying that fast?

    I only found videos where the boss dies at or shortly after the berserk timer. Assuming you have 25 dps in the raid, that is an average of 480 dps per dps-specced player (so ignoring tanks and healers).
    Vanilla also had:

    Majority playing with 250ms+.

    Majority also playing with terrible PCs.

    Insane lack of skill/knowledge of the game back then even in realm first guilds..Out of my mind we probably had at least 10-15 clueless people that never belonged there, despite that, realm first guild, killed like 8 of them, good thing i transferred before the expansion hit to kill a few more before TBC.

    No class stacking apart from Warriors for tanking, it was yolo.

    I mean i remember on a Maexxna kill,like our 5th or 6th, i requested to be put with the MT and his shamans for all the totems,respecced out of Improved Demo/Improved TC, was a 2h Fury Warrior with C'thun Axe debuff bot and offtank, without the knowledge of today private server specs and theory crafting, it was just Flurry/Bloodthrist, some Slamming with the Impale talent which i forget now and thats it.

    Drunk a hell ton of potions etc, i died 2 times in that fight from overagroo and at "pull" i broke the 1k DPS for a few seconds, although i did die from overagroo at like 89%? despite starting to attack at 96% (You can set DPS matter to start from when you attack etc, existed then also) and then at 16%, got combat rezzed both times, it was like doing a log in 2019

    I dont remember the exact number but it was definitely "more than 480" despite the stun locking she does.

    Also mages and Ignite Stacking definitely broke the 1k everyone now and then, but the reality stands, its cheesable things with world buffs and/or insane amount of consumables, its not something you do "Every time".

    The numbers are accurate, just not, repeatable.

    Its literally the same as doing a log in a raid at your 10th kill where you ignore mechanics and everyone plays for you, its nothing weird but its not repeatable and not the whole raid can do.

    Here uploaded the video i have saved from back then, the boss dies before hard enrage (The redness is 5% mini-enrage) and as you can see some terrible things for todays standards , i am the retard changing stances at Patchwerks ass to press Thunder Clap.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzuE-vOF9aQ
    Last edited by potis; 2019-04-08 at 01:42 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    1200 was perfectly obtainable in retail vanilla full naxx gear.
    There are videos of people doing it.
    All it took was a few world buffs.
    This made me laugh so hard, no one did 1200 DPS in vanilla, that was not possible till TBC even in sunwell people averaged 2800 DPS we had a rogue in Sunwell that could do 4.1k on Brutalis, and recount (used by 90% of the community who actually used a DPS meter) back in the day was not the most accurate DPS meter to go off, everyones had a different value as it went off time a player spent attacking not actual time on the boss, why no one uses these type of DPS meters any more!

    *mic drop*

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    This made me laugh so hard, no one did 1200 DPS in vanilla, that was not possible till TBC even in sunwell people averaged 2800 DPS we had a rogue in Sunwell that could do 4.1k on Brutalis, and recount (used by 90% of the community who actually used a DPS meter) back in the day was not the most accurate DPS meter to go off, everyones had a different value as it went off time a player spent attacking not actual time on the boss, why no one uses these type of DPS meters any more!

    *mic drop*
    1200 seems kinda high. Not unachievable unless my memory is off but what would be a mythic raider by today's standards of gear would be looking at the 900s more then that.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    This made me laugh so hard, no one did 1200 DPS in vanilla, that was not possible till TBC even in sunwell people averaged 2800 DPS we had a rogue in Sunwell that could do 4.1k on Brutalis, and recount (used by 90% of the community who actually used a DPS meter) back in the day was not the most accurate DPS meter to go off, everyones had a different value as it went off time a player spent attacking not actual time on the boss, why no one uses these type of DPS meters any more!

    *mic drop*
    You called vanilla 1200 dps ridiculous and then talked about people "averaging" ridiculous TBC numbers in a post that was equally if not more ridiculous than the post you were ridiculing, for the same reasons. When SK.Gaming (the best guild in the world in 2008) posted their "geared to the teeth" rank 1 speedkill of Brutallus only 2 of their players parsed above 2800 dps, both Hunters.



    Nobody was "averaging" 2800dps in Sunwell.
    I7 6700K : 16GB DDR4 3000 : GTX1070 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  18. #58
    Some classes could easily hit 1200 dps once they were mostly Naxx geared, used the proper consumable loadouts(150-200g a night) and world buffs. During Naxx progress no, but once your guild was mostly Naxx geared it was doable. Even some of the "non-viable" dps classes could push 800-1000 when they were Naxx geared, but that was fairly rare because they would need enough pull in the guild to get the Naxx gear in the first place.

    My guild had a feral druid pulling 800-1000 dps on non-gimmick fights with near full Naxx gear in the correct slots and full consumables. At the point where we had people not use certain consumables on easier Naxx bosses and none on Ony/BWL he would still need to use them to get similar numbers as our mages/warriors/locks/rogues with equal gear. Would also point out that most bosses by that point were fairly quick kills

    That is mostly the reason why people didn't think it was possible, the time investment to hit that stage was prohibitive and was to the detriment of guild progression as a whole. Why push much needed DPS gear to an inferior class and make no mistake that was what it was. As it was it was difficult to gear 40 people when most bosses dropped 2-3 pieces and giving a rogues shiny new boots to a feral druid was a good way to lose players to a different Naxx guild if there was one to go to.

    Getting 40 great raiders was so much of a chore that many guilds could never get to Naxx as in reality they usually had 5-10 great raiders, 10-15 good raiders, and the rest were okay at best. Could clear the earlier raids like MC fairly easily with this, and given enough time and gear from MC and the 20 man raids you could make a start on the earlier bosses of BWL and AQ40 but clearing those and stepping into Naxx with that sort of breakdown wasn't really viable. Usually what would happen is the higher progression guilds would slowly poach your best players as you geared them up to a certain point and you'd be stuck recruiting new players.

    It's also good to point out that there were things that most of the player base didn't pay attention to that were vital to optimal dps for every class. Things most retail players these days would baulk at, like having a swing timer and paying arguably as much attention to that as to boss mechanics, or having your friendly paladin dps sit his character sometimes to get his reckoning. At one point in our guild we had a Naxx/BWL geared paladin "tanking" the last assigned dps target on Majordomo and sitting for each of its melee swings to maximise the amount of reckonings, though this was a shits and giggles run and not something you would really see in any serious MC progression.

    Now I would like to point out that the hybrid classes weren't all equal, while we did have a feral druid pulling high numbers we did have several okayish geared paladin and priest dps who usually only managed in the 400-500 range towards the end of vanilla but by that point we rarely bothered with world buffs and didn't require complete consumables. They might have done better on the later bosses when the consumables and world buffs were hit, but I was banned for trolling on Saph progression and quit until a few months into BC.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You called vanilla 1200 dps ridiculous and then talked about people "averaging" ridiculous TBC numbers in a post that was equally if not more ridiculous than the post you were ridiculing, for the same reasons. When SK.Gaming (the best guild in the world in 2008) posted their "geared to the teeth" rank 1 speedkill of Brutallus only 2 of their players parsed above 2800 dps, both Hunters.



    Nobody was "averaging" 2800dps in Sunwell.



    you were saying?
    Last edited by Miake; 2019-04-08 at 04:15 AM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    [IMG][/IMG]


    you were saying?
    A recount screenshot with no context is proof of what exactly? You're casually claiming that players are averaging more dps than the highest recorded dps pass of that fight from the era, executed by the best players in the world at the time. Most progression kills of early bosses in Sunwell had players averaging less than 2000 dps, the best speed kills only hit 4k dps numbers on short duration low armor bosses like Gorefiend.

    So what about your screenshot makes me think it's not

    1. Lol hyjal trash recount data.
    2. Private server.

    You laughing at someone for claiming 1200 dps was normal in Naxx and then saying 2800dps is average in Sunwell is just dumb, you should go laugh at yourself. I guess I should pull up a Fathomlord cleave speedkill recount and then say I average 4k+ dps in T5 gear, nps guyz.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2019-04-08 at 04:48 AM.
    I7 6700K : 16GB DDR4 3000 : GTX1070 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

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