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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    A recount screenshot with no context is proof of what exactly? You're casually claiming that players are averaging more dps than the highest recorded dps pass of that fight from the era, executed by the best players in the world at the time. Most progression kills of early bosses in Sunwell had players averaging less than 2000 dps, the best speed kills only hit 4k dps numbers on short duration low armor bosses like Gorefiend.

    So what about your screenshot makes me think it's not

    1. Lol hyjal trash recount data.
    2. Private server.

    You laughing at someone for claiming 1200 dps was normal in Naxx and then saying 2800dps is average in Sunwell is just dumb, you should go laugh at yourself. I guess I should pull up a Fathomlord cleave speedkill recount and then say I average 4k+ dps in T5 gear, nps guyz.
    that was a legit kill from a world top 10 guild before WotLK was released, this is proof to what i said earlier about Brutalis! you can see the tanks targets in the pic, Brutalis Dead
    Last edited by Miake; 2019-04-08 at 04:56 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    that was a legit kill from a world top 10 guild before WotLK was released, this is proof to what i said earlier about Brutalis! you can see the tanks targets in the pic, Brutalis Dead
    Your reply peaked my interest so I gave the screenshot another look, it's a patch 3.0 kill. In patch 3.0 everyone was doing give or take 2x as much dps because they had access to WOTLK talents that vastly improved class performance, coupled with content being flat out nerfed by 30% (shorter fight = more dps).

    You're effectively talking about a level 70 raid in WOTLK, not TBC.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    Classic won't be like vanilla, everything have been theory crafted for year. People didn't have access to all the informations we have today, few knew how to optimally gear and play, world buff (except ony and zg) were almost not used in raid, same thing for flask and most odd buffs you can get.

    And even if some were able to put some high number, there also was the threat issue. Nowadays hardcore guild mostly either use a dual wielding fury warrior with full threat gear or a druid because it's the only way to keep aggro.
    World buffs are on a 2 hour cool down. The server does not allow more than a single player to turn in an Onyxia head, Nefarian head or the heart of Hakkar more frequently than every two hours. Further more, i'm not sure if it was possible to stack the song flower buff for the entire raid back then. Darkmoon faire in on a rotation.

    The spawn rate of black lotuses is hilariously off on private servers. Using them for raiding was unheard of for a reason, it was simply not feasible to use the flask for anything but the most frustrating roadblocks. Even then, only the players benefiting the most would use it. Such as the main tank, the off-tanks and healers.

    When the whole raid uses every consumable in the game, and when everyone shows up with all the consumables for every single raid. The guild can be constructed, from the ground up and the players can pick talents and gear with all of this in mind. When all the stars align, you can kill Naxxramas bosses in less than a minute. You can bring Onyxia down to the floor again before she has the chance to reach her first pathing point. You can kill Loatheb before the cool down debuff ever becomes an issue.


    The shorter the boss fight. The more probable that you get statistical anomalies, where your recorded crit rate far exceeds the actual crit rate on your stat card. While it's possible to crit 50/100 hits with a crit rate of 40%, it's far less likely than critting 25/50 hits with an equal crit rate. I've experienced 80% crit rate with aimed shot myself on a boss. Why? Because i only had to cast 5 aimed shots.

    In that 928 DPS youtube video, it took 5 minutes and 21 seconds to kill the boss. It's virtually impossible that a fight that long produced significant outliers in crits, hits, dodges and glancing blows.

    Lastly, fury warriors were not stacked to the degree they are stacked on private servers. I've gone over it before in other threads. But basically, bloodthirst was only usable after landing a killing blow, it was buffed later in the cycle of classic wow and there was no dual wield talent increasing damage with off-hand. I hold the belief that the top guilds did not realize the value of fury warriors in time, bloodthirst being changed with BWL release and Nefarian (world first) dying AFTER ZG release.

    But even if or when the viability of fury was properly realized. It was either not deemed that strong, to warrant rerolls or recruitment as that would entail dropping level 60 characters with full gear sets from the roster. In favor of leveling up and/or gearing up fury warriors in dungeons and raids. Then end up with a DPS on your roster you think will only marginally come out ahead of the established rogues and mages.

    Unlike now in 2019, where you can have 10 fury warriors join the guild at level 20 a day or two after classic launches this summer.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Armor decreasing debuffs didn't stack in vanilla. They do on pservers, which is 1 reason that everyone has skewed view. World buffs are also in reality much less accessible, with global cooldowns for example.
    According to old wowhead comments Annihilator does stack with Faerie fire and sunder armor - https://www.wowhead.com/item=12798/annihilator#comments World buffs were less accessible in vanilla that is true, but you see other videos from vanilla where people have full world buffs.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    I want to communicate to new players how big the discrepancy in classes was but I keep getting info that’s absurdly detailed or fanatics for off-specs that claim they can do great DPS if they’re dual-wielding Atiesh on the first full moon of the galactic ecliptic.

    As best I can tell
    1200 range:
    Fury War
    Rogue
    Fire Mage

    1100 range:
    Warlock

    900-1000:
    Hunter

    Shadow, Elemental, Feral, Ret, Boomkin: 500-600

    So awesome very good but not BiS Naxx gear and Ony buff but no flask.
    People were doing 1.2k dps in TK and SSC from what i remember. Or around that so no way was naxx gear giving those numbers.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by coprax View Post
    Tips is basing all his classic videos on some weird private server data, so be very careful what you make of it.
    yes thats why am saying not this guy again. Tips whatever his name is, is definitely not a valid source of data and his videos are just a long if scenario and crappy content.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Your reply peaked my interest so I gave the screenshot another look, it's a patch 3.0 kill. In patch 3.0 everyone was doing give or take 2x as much dps because they had access to WOTLK talents that vastly improved class performance, coupled with content being flat out nerfed by 30% (shorter fight = more dps).

    You're effectively talking about a level 70 raid in WOTLK, not TBC.
    you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Atherions View Post
    According to old wowhead comments Annihilator does stack with Faerie fire and sunder armor - https://www.wowhead.com/item=12798/annihilator#comments World buffs were less accessible in vanilla that is true, but you see other videos from vanilla where people have full world buffs.
    People do allot of damage because they have world buffs. People post videos on the internet when they do allot of damage.

    The internet has a disproportionate amount of high damage videos. The internet has a disproportionate amount of world buff videos.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same
    How the hell am I grasping on straws when you claim that a patch 3.0 WOTLK Patch dps parse is TBC Sunwell? It's a picture where you went into Sunwell with ridiculously OP broken characters and fought against massively nerfed versions of the bosses. Patch 3.0 is not TBC, expansion pre-patches are not in any way representative of anything at all, those periods of the game are irrelevant circus festivals.

    In that patch I was playing an Arms/Fury Axe specialisation dual-wield hybrid, and would have rinsed more than half of your raid with my meme spec.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    This made me laugh so hard, no one did 1200 DPS in vanilla, that was not possible till TBC even in sunwell people averaged 2800 DPS we had a rogue in Sunwell that could do 4.1k on Brutalis, and recount (used by 90% of the community who actually used a DPS meter) back in the day was not the most accurate DPS meter to go off, everyones had a different value as it went off time a player spent attacking not actual time on the boss, why no one uses these type of DPS meters any more!

    *mic drop*
    you forget how gearing worked in vanilla and tbc right? I remember doing SSC and TK and still having some T3 on me on the first clears. Karazhan was fully done in t3 gear as well. Gearing worked way differently back then. I am pretty certain that people could be doing 1200 dps in different fights and with buffs etc.

  11. #71
    I remember an old Patchwerk Video showing a Gnome Fury Warrior pulling off 1250 DPS with all Buffs you could use. Our Fury Warriors did ca. 1k DPS on that fight without World Buffs. As a hunter i averaged 500-600 DPS with my shitty Rhok'Delar and bad Hunter scaling.

  12. #72
    The problem when speaking of "normal DPS" is severalfold :

    - Most of the time, people take extremes and use it as "average". Someone trying to break his record by using all consummable and having a whole raid tailored to maxxing his number is not "normal" or "average". Even if we ignore these specific cases, it's still usually the top players who are used as "average". Your whole raid did about 700 dps per player, but one of them did 1100 dps ? You can bet that everyone will say "well, you can do 1100 dps on average". Instead of, you know, maybe 800-900 if we discount healer/tanks.

    - Vanilla was pretty bad for DPS add-on. Even when I last played (in Legion), there was serious differences between different add-ons, and that's with years of fine-tuning and the game offereing MUCH more informations through hooks. During Vanilla, it was much worse, so any add-on data should be taken with a big grain of salt.

    - DPS is a very misleading value, and it first and foremost depends on how the add-on makes its calculation (is it total damage divided by the total time spent in fight ? Is it the one fifth of the total damage made during the last five seconds ? Is the calculation reset if you spend several seconds without doing damage ?).

    - Often, the screenshot with the number "happens" to be taken in the middle of the fight. Hint : that's because the guy just used all his CD and consummable and so on, so is at the peak of his DPS, and waiting until the end of the fight would lower it considerably.

    So yeah, throwing numbers around makes me dubious. I suppose you could take the claim of most people, halve them, and be about what an actual real average would be ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same
    You're the one grasping at straws, mate. Comparing a 3.0 parse to the rest of TBC is being stupid at best, pure bad faith at worse.

  13. #73
    This thread and comments about Naxx reminded me of this video from Patchwerk:


  14. #74
    Mechagnome Storfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    Yep, even these numbers are inflated; nobody did those numbers as consistent DPS because, funnily enough, they're closer to The Burning Crusade numbers.
    Vanilla had Worldbuffs. TBC didnt. Worldbuffs stacked makes a HUGE difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    1200 in Vanilla? No one did 1200 DPS in Vanilla.

    People did 1200-1300 in SSC and TK during TBC at level 70
    WotLK HCs was tuned for 1400dps at level 80.

    If you could break 1000 sustained DPS in Vanilla, you were top of the pop..
    Fury warrior by the name of Lilos did 1250dps on patchwerk in vanilla and in BIS gear along with pretty heavy consumable and wbuff stacked.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Healasouhait View Post
    There's the Juju one. Thought he had more than that however, haven't checked it before posting my bad.

    With the the other buffs, you can aim around 1k dps. Not the 1k2 as seen previously.
    JuJus arent a worldbuff. They are regular raid consumables.
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Can be cleared in several hours easy yes, if you stack viable classes. If you dont your dps is going to be 3x lower, healing 2x lower, tank taking 30% more damage and you wont be able to kill anything.

    Dont judge dps in vanilla by retail standards. We call it non-viable because the difference is going to be massive. Currently if the spec is 10% it's already called non-viable. In vanilla the difference you could be up to 5 times, even with bis gear and played optimally.
    Not be able to kill anything? Either you're not aware of how easy Vanilla raids are, or you're exaggerating for no reason. Only late Naxx bosses are hard, and that's not really because of DPS checks in most cases either.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storfan View Post
    Fury warrior by the name of Lilos did 1250dps on patchwerk in vanilla and in BIS gear along with pretty heavy consumable and wbuff stacked.
    One named person of one named spec... That pretty much quality as "top of the pop"..

    Also, Patchwork have never been a real benchmark of anything, as that type of fight happens roughly every second expansion i.e. approx 4 in the game to date, total.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    Yep, even these numbers are inflated; nobody did those numbers as consistent DPS because, funnily enough, they're closer to The Burning Crusade numbers.
    Maybe nobody did them in 2005 but people will do those and FAR more in 2019 (and probably did in 2006). I don't think we're allowed to link PServer parses but you'll definitely see many thousand DPS on those.

    People have distilled this down to an art now. MC and BWL are cleared in about 20 minutes each. Even in AQ40 many bosses live less than 1 minute so having ridiculous DPS parses is possible.

    I don't expect things to be quite so quick on Classic but I'll still expect close to 2000 dps parses in AQ40 eventually.

    I think the problem with this thread is that there isn't really any specific measurement criteria...what constitutes consistent DPS when many fights last less than 1 minute anyway? What gear level? What boss, what raid, target dummy, raid buffed, entirely solo vs a dummy? So many variables

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavll View Post
    Maybe nobody did them in 2005 but people will do those and FAR more in 2019 (and probably did in 2006). I don't think we're allowed to link PServer parses but you'll definitely see many thousand DPS on those.

    People have distilled this down to an art now. MC and BWL are cleared in about 20 minutes each. Even in AQ40 many bosses live less than 1 minute so having ridiculous DPS parses is possible.

    I don't expect things to be quite so quick on Classic but I'll still expect close to 2000 dps parses in AQ40 eventually.

    I think the problem with this thread is that there isn't really any specific measurement criteria...what constitutes consistent DPS when many fights last less than 1 minute anyway? What gear level? What boss, what raid, target dummy, raid buffed, entirely solo vs a dummy? So many variables
    I always laugh when someone effectively asserts that Top 100-guild Vanilla players couldn't hold a candle to [redacted] denizens. You really think the top Rogue or Warrior from <Risen> of Alleria didn't know what he was doing? BiS was known to those who were engaged in top end raiding. That's not new. So was farming for consumable buffs. Yes things have changed, but for every Wolfshead helm discovery there are two or more errors that [redacted] got wrong. Onyxia head buff? Not gonna happen the way PS players are used to. Flasking? Good luck affording it when Black Lotus has a spawn rate orders of magnitude lower. They've admitted that armor values are guessed. Boss ability functionality is a complete crap shoot, etc.

    Those DPS numbers aren't occurring under real Vanilla conditions, and it shows.
    Last edited by Sooba; 2019-04-08 at 03:09 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooba View Post
    I always laugh when someone effectively asserts that Top 100-guild Vanilla players couldn't hold a candle to [redacted] denizens. You really think the top Rogue or Warrior from <Risen> of Alleria didn't know what he was doing? BiS was known to those who were engaged in top end raiding. That's not new. So was farming for consumable buffs. Yes things have changed, but for every Wolfshead helm discovery there are two or more errors that [redacted] got wrong. Onyxia head buff? Not gonna happen the way PS players are used to. Flasking? Good luck affording it when Black Lotus has a spawn rate orders of magnitude lower. They've admitted that armor values are guessed. Boss ability functionality is a complete crap shoot, etc.

    Those DPS numbers aren't occurring under real Vanilla conditions, and it shows.
    Yet on the twin emperor world first video you can see some frost mage for example.
    Kungen (gm of the guild that got kt world first) even said they didn't think about using dire maul worlds buffs for raids back then.

    And BIS gear were known back then ? Theory crafter still debate about some piece even today. About every bis list i see have somewhat changed in the last few years.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    One named person of one named spec... That pretty much quality as "top of the pop"..

    Also, Patchwork have never been a real benchmark of anything, as that type of fight happens roughly every second expansion i.e. approx 4 in the game to date, total.
    I answered to your specific statement that: "1200 in Vanilla? No one did 1200 DPS in Vanilla."

    Which was infact incorrect. I have no doubt, that with the release of classic this feat will be reproduced many times over by a great many players. That all being said, 1200dps might not become the new "normal average dps" but it will not be unheard of.

    EDIT: When I raided Sunwell I believe my brutallus record as fury was around 2.5k dps.
    Last edited by Storfan; 2019-04-08 at 05:03 PM.
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