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  1. #81
    - No one did 1200 in vanilla.
    - Here's a video.
    - One guy is not really a proof anything plus it was Patchwerk.
    - ???

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Not be able to kill anything? Either you're not aware of how easy Vanilla raids are, or you're exaggerating for no reason. Only late Naxx bosses are hard, and that's not really because of DPS checks in most cases either.
    Ofc vanilla raiding is easy. If you play appropriate specs, use appropriate consumables and follow some rules. Which requires a certain level of dedication average player is not used to. So yeah, I fully expect average player in an average guild be unable to go above 7/9 AQ40 and 4/12 Naxx.
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    How the hell am I grasping on straws when you claim that a patch 3.0 WOTLK Patch dps parse is TBC Sunwell? It's a picture where you went into Sunwell with ridiculously OP broken characters and fought against massively nerfed versions of the bosses. Patch 3.0 is not TBC, expansion pre-patches are not in any way representative of anything at all, those periods of the game are irrelevant circus festivals.

    In that patch I was playing an Arms/Fury Axe specialisation dual-wield hybrid, and would have rinsed more than half of your raid with my meme spec.
    As far as I remember, you needed ~29-30k RDPS, and that was to avoid enrage by a handful of seconds (~1.8-2k dps for a 3/6/16 setup; I remember we needed 2k dps in our guild, so we might have had an extra healer and one less dps). We were 3/6 before the 3.0 patch and like many guilds, we managed to clear 6/6 shortly after the patch hit, because as you said, major HP nerf + talents update made enrage timers trivial by increasing overall DPS. The other guy is just confused and can't admit he's wrong.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You called vanilla 1200 dps ridiculous and then talked about people "averaging" ridiculous TBC numbers in a post that was equally if not more ridiculous than the post you were ridiculing, for the same reasons. When SK.Gaming (the best guild in the world in 2008) posted their "geared to the teeth" rank 1 speedkill of Brutallus only 2 of their players parsed above 2800 dps, both Hunters.



    Nobody was "averaging" 2800dps in Sunwell.
    This entire thread is filled with people literally pulling numbers out of their asses. 4800 DPS was a relatively decent Arcane mage on Patchwerk 25m Naxx in Wrath. That other guy your quoting is delusional

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same
    Your point does remain the same, invalid. He's literally explaining multiple ways in which you're wrong, but you're too dense to even realize how fucking stupid you look

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Azkial View Post
    This entire thread is filled with people literally pulling numbers out of their asses. 4800 DPS was a relatively decent Arcane mage on Patchwerk 25m Naxx in Wrath. That other guy your quoting is delusional
    I have no idea why people keep assuming that the dps numbers in the last raid of the expansion should be lower than the first raid of the next one? This is literally never the case, unless there's a stat squish involved.
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  6. #86
    Legendary! FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storfan View Post
    I answered to your specific statement that: "1200 in Vanilla? No one did 1200 DPS in Vanilla."

    Which was infact incorrect. I have no doubt, that with the release of classic this feat will be reproduced many times over by a great many players. That all being said, 1200dps might not become the new "normal average dps" but it will not be unheard of.

    EDIT: When I raided Sunwell I believe my brutallus record as fury was around 2.5k dps.
    In the sense of the word, you are correct.
    In essence, I am correct.

    It's sorte of the same as saying "You cannot solo raid bosses on current tier" and the Mionelol solos Kazzak during WoD or "that hunter" soloed Atramedes (the blind dragon) in BWD.

    Can the average Joe do it? Nope.
    Can the average raider do it? Nope.
    Can the average Mythic raider do it? Nope.
    Can a few exceptional players, who have both skill, gear and specific class/spec do it? Yes, very very few can..

    You see the difference?
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuja View Post
    Are they going to do any balancing? Biggest thing I hated about vanilla is how big performance differences specs have. But I guess it wouldn't be vanilla then, if most specs would be viable in competitive raiding.
    Nope, cause "No changes" is apparently more important than having a functional game. Them keeping the ridiculously awful high warlord pvp system being the perfect case in point.

  8. #88
    Field Marshal Jargathnan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same
    Sorry dude but it’s you who are grasping for straws here. I was raiding Sunwell pre-3.0 and after too. Admittedly not in a world top guild, but a solid guild none the less. And I can tell you that, without a doubt in the world, 3.0 was a major, major nerf bat to TBC raiding. Both directly (3.0 cut ALL boss health pools and damage dealt significantly, across every TBC raid including SWP) and indirectly, with certain classes such as rogues and hunters receiving significant reworks that resulted in higher DPS. So go figure, the fights were faster, easier, and most (just about all?) classes could blatantly dish out far more throughout.

    Thus your example means nothing. It’s in the wrong context to contribute to the conversation.

    Lastly- your guild had a world top Kalecgos kill and that was it. I don’t doubt you guys did better than most. But you weren’t top 10 through SWP as a whole. Thus that part is very misleading too.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Storfan View Post
    Vanilla had Worldbuffs. TBC didnt. Worldbuffs stacked makes a HUGE difference.

    Fury warrior by the name of Lilos did 1250dps on patchwerk in vanilla and in BIS gear along with pretty heavy consumable and wbuff stacked.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
    Though I grant you that you actually answered claims about "no one" or "nobody" and the like, you agree that these examples are extreme and not at all "normal" DPS as asked in the title ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Ofc vanilla raiding is easy. If you play appropriate specs, use appropriate consumables and follow some rules. Which requires a certain level of dedication average player is not used to. So yeah, I fully expect average player in an average guild be unable to go above 7/9 AQ40 and 4/12 Naxx.
    The "average" player in the "average" guild didn't even finish MC in Vanilla.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooba View Post
    I always laugh when someone effectively asserts that Top 100-guild Vanilla players couldn't hold a candle to [redacted] denizens. You really think the top Rogue or Warrior from <Risen> of Alleria didn't know what he was doing? BiS was known to those who were engaged in top end raiding. That's not new. So was farming for consumable buffs. Yes things have changed, but for every Wolfshead helm discovery there are two or more errors that [redacted] got wrong. Onyxia head buff? Not gonna happen the way PS players are used to. Flasking? Good luck affording it when Black Lotus has a spawn rate orders of magnitude lower. They've admitted that armor values are guessed. Boss ability functionality is a complete crap shoot, etc.

    Those DPS numbers aren't occurring under real Vanilla conditions, and it shows.
    If you really believe that Top 100 Guild players (as you put it) are anything like people from guilds like VG then that's your misconception. I'm not saying people then didn't know what they were doing, just the level of knowledge and commitment wasn't what it is today.

    If you really believe PS numbers are that wrong (and you cite BL spawn times as an example - the server I played on and where VG play has 1 hour spawn times as per vanilla. When Naxx released prices were around 90-100g) and mechanics are wrong, then I have to assume you haven't played on any good ones or haven't played any at all.

    You only have to look at legacy logs to see how wrong you will be once Classic is up and running.

  11. #91
    There’s been some good discussion here and I think there might be the answer to my question in some of the youtube videos linked that I’ll check out after work.

    That being said I don’t care about Sunwell DPS or stat squishes or what Mione can do. I also don’t care about how accurate private servers are or which poster is trolling the most. All I want:

    What was normal DPS in Naxx on a farm run (with Ony buff and no flask)?
    Reminders of what vanilla was like: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...nilla-was-like

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    Yep, even these numbers are inflated; nobody did those numbers as consistent DPS because, funnily enough, they're closer to The Burning Crusade numbers.
    Many of our guild damage dealers did similar numbers in WotLK when started raiding LoL! I remember that awesome DPS did 2k dps and rest something like 1000-1500

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    There’s been some good discussion here and I think there might be the answer to my question in some of the youtube videos linked that I’ll check out after work.

    That being said I don’t care about Sunwell DPS or stat squishes or what Mione can do. I also don’t care about how accurate private servers are or which poster is trolling the most. All I want:

    What was normal DPS in Naxx on a farm run (with Ony buff and no flask)?
    No one knows for sure. You can look up private server logs, from the very same server, from the very same guild across several weeks. And you will see numbers differing wildly, and you would not be able to pin down a specific number as the average damage.

    Then people, watching youtube videos 15 years after the fact wants to pin an average number after seeing a single fight.

    You got all this talk about loot being rare. Consumables making a difference. World buffs cool downs back in 2005 (turn in every 2 hour max). Lack of knowledge. And you have people trying to pin down a ''normal dps''.

    Because that is what the name of the thread is. ''What is NORMAL DPS in FULL Naxx gear''
    Youtube videos of people performing so well, that they survive for 15 years is NOT normal. It's abnormal. You don't find videos of rogues doing 500DPS. Even though it's plausible 500 dps was in fact normal
    It has not been established, in any capacity that the persons in these videos had FULL Naxx gear. Though it's fair to assume the gnome warrior had extremely good gear.

    There is also the, yet to be mentioned patch 1.12 to discuss. Naxxramas lasting from patch 1.11, to patch 1.12 and it's sub-patches before the TBC pre-patch. The most significant chance that i could find, directly associated with DPS:

    ''Eviscerate: Manual of Eviscerate (Rank 9) now drops off Blackhand Assassins in Black Rock Spire. In addition, Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.''


    It's probably more than 300 dps, and i doubt it's much more than 1000 dps. About as much i can say with any confidence.
    Last edited by NovatHunter; 2019-04-12 at 12:47 AM.

  14. #94
    I also kind of worded the question wrong because the real heart of the answer I want is a relative comparison of top DPS for different classes more than the actual numbers they can do. I only want the numbers so the comparisons can be factual.

    https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...xp=0&upl=50266
    Last edited by garicasha; 2019-04-13 at 03:47 AM.
    Reminders of what vanilla was like: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...nilla-was-like

  15. #95
    Mechagnome Storfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    I also kind of worded the question wrong because the real heart of the answer I want is a relative comparison of top DPS for different classes more than the actual numbers they can do. I only want the numbers so the comparisons can be factual.
    Unless someone who raided Naxx back in vanilla very clearly remembers the exact numbers involved you only really have one option:

    Look up youtube videos from Naxx boss kills from back in the day, with visible damage meters and compare these numbers to those available on https://legacyplayers.com/

    That being said, you probably wont end up much wiser because:

    A) The old youtube videos might have dps parses only from that specific fight and not necessarily lasting across the entire raid, thus skewing the numbers.

    B) Private servers today might be very accurate (from my own experience) but they arent 100% solid proof.

    EDIT #1: For reference. I did Naxx last night on a private server as a full bis fury warrior and I did 600dps average across all bosses (not trash counted). It should be noted that I tanked for a few of those fights aswell. That is also something to take into consideration atleast for warriors: You will be tanking quite alot even as fury spec and that also affects your DPS (obviously). On Patchwerk I did 1255dps with full consumables and some worldbuffs (no Darkmoon or rendbuff).

    EDIT #2: Here are the logs if you wish to dig deeper and look at other classes aswell: https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/View...xp=0&upl=50910
    Last edited by Storfan; 2019-04-12 at 06:08 AM.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Nope, cause "No changes" is apparently more important than having a functional game. Them keeping the ridiculously awful high warlord pvp system being the perfect case in point.
    In the podcast Countdown to Classic, one of the original designers has been coming on to talk about design philosophy for the specs and it was his original intention that each spec was viable or had some reason to be played. He wanted specs to worry about threat and mana and he advocated for a hybrid tax, but he said that he wish he had made the hybrid tax less of a factor and he wished they addressed mana issues and talent parity (i.e. hit from talents) for Ele & Balance, as those are the 2 hardest hit hybrid specs. BUT, Vanilla was very successful and any changes will have unforeseen, unvalidated changes. It wasn't perfect, but it was good enough for the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" adage to be applied.

    A big issue people, particularly on this board, have is focusing is solely on PvE, which is a flawed way to view Vanilla as PvP and Leveling/Soloing content were big parts of the game for average players and hardcore players. High end raiders spend more time farming than they do raiding while their guild is progressing. Some specs that are quite garbage in PvE, like Ele Shaman and Shadow Priests, are very potent in PvP. Before AQ and Naxx are released, PvE content is going to be extremely easy so the most challenging aspect of the game is likely going to be in PvP.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    I also kind of worded the question wrong because the real heart of the answer I want is a relative comparison of top DPS for different classes more than the actual numbers they can do. I only want the numbers so the comparisons can be factual.
    Check legacyplayers. For Naxx it's Mage (Fire) > Warrior (Fury) > Rogue (Seal Fate Daggers/Combat Swords) > Warlock (DS/Ruin or SM/Ruin). Typically there's only one other spec/class that's brought into raids as a dps (MM Hunter), but their dps is not competitive, they're brough for Tranq, pulling and buffing melee groups.
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  18. #98
    Internet, I have a tough research question for you...what was the fastest Patchwerk was ever killed before the BC pre-patch?
    Reminders of what vanilla was like: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...nilla-was-like

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    Internet, I have a tough research question for you...what was the fastest Patchwerk was ever killed before the BC pre-patch?
    No data, cause no one recorded that stuff.

    Only Blizzard has that data, and because we can assume they couldnt even save their own patch files and servers, i doubt they would save that type of data.

  20. #100
    Mechagnome Storfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    Internet, I have a tough research question for you...what was the fastest Patchwerk was ever killed before the BC pre-patch?
    That is impossible to say. As someone pointed out people didnt keep logs back then. Your best option is to look at old youtube videos of kills. Lilos patchwerk video is cut down and doesnt show the entire fight.

    Looking at legacyplayers you'll see the fastest patchwerk kills are around 1:30-2:00min on private servers atleast. My fastest kill on private servers is 2:09 I believe.
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