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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    that was a legit kill from a world top 10 guild before WotLK was released, this is proof to what i said earlier about Brutalis! you can see the tanks targets in the pic, Brutalis Dead
    This is at the very least with wotlk prepatch released, since Cordia has the Diplomat title, which wasn't available until wotlk prepatch. In wotlk prepatch, SWP received -30% hp and all classes did way more dps. It became a joke. I cleared SWP with a pug during the prepatch and I had never killed more than 4 bosses in BT before that.

  2. #162
    Stood in the Fire Whistl3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    For people coming from modern WoW they might not realize how unbalanced the classes are. Most the people here know. You're (correctly) arguing that a raid with a ret pally and a couple of non-healing druids would do fine. But there's a hidden assumption you've made that people already know that rogues, warriors, and fire mages are optimal DPS.

    Someone coming from modern WoW would expect a raid of feral druids, shadow priests, ret paladins, and elemental shamans to do roughly the same DPS as any other raid makeup. Most specs in modern WoW are within 10% of each other when averaged over a whole raid tier.

    This was NOT the case in vanilla.

    My goal is to try to communicate to new players some of the differences, so that if they choose to raid they know classes aren't going to be perceived the same way they are on live. But really I just wish the game would come out so instead of pontificating on random BS on a forum I could play it.
    My post wasn't in reply to you the OP, more some of the comments

  3. #163
    Stood in the Fire Piesor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    No one said that you couldn't crit 100% when someone sits. The quote litterally says "automatic crits affecting talent procs".
    Ok my bad :/

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Druids do not have high sustained threat. They have high burst threat, which is why they're good as offtanks.
    It's the opposite actually. Druid burst threat is unreliable (if the first maul is a crit than you are good, if you get miss/parry/dodge 3 times in a row dps have to wait) but on the long run it is on par with a dual wielding fury tank (would say even better with the gnome mace). And druid take a lot less damage than a dualwield fury tank.

    A fury tank can switch to a shield and activate shield wall if it's a fight where he expect a huge damage spike (like a boss enraging at low health). Druid don't really have tools to help with that.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    World buffing was 100% normal for Naxx progress.
    I have a question about this, because I never raided in Vanilla. So these world buffs, I'm assuming you lost them when you wiped? So do the raids go back out and get all the world buffs every time they wipe? Or do they just spend the rest of the night trying without those buffs?

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    I have a question about this, because I never raided in Vanilla. So these world buffs, I'm assuming you lost them when you wiped? So do the raids go back out and get all the world buffs every time they wipe? Or do they just spend the rest of the night trying without those buffs?
    Generally your got to the point where you were familiar with the encounter before resorting to using world buffs. If you died with them, you lost them. Some of the world buffs (at least in Vanilla) had ICDs so you couldn't just go back to town and use another Onyxia head or turn in Rend's Head.

    We didn't start using them until we hit Loatheb. Once we were familiar with the encounter the next raid night we zoned in with all the raid buffs and absolutely demolished him.

    I don't think it was super common unless you were ensuring kills or trying to make farm easier. The guild on my server who was one of the top 10 guilds in the world at the time would do most of Naxx, then zone out and get all the world buffs to make the last stretch of the instance way easier to farm out. Kel'Thuzad and Sapphiron for instance were way easier with full raid buffs.

    It's actually quite silly how much power you can obtain from world buff sources. Clear DM before raid, get buffs, then get summoned to Felwood to get a flower buff. Meet in the capital city to get both world buffs, then hearth to LHC and absolutely destroy Naxx. The buffs alone when stacked up is like adding 50% more power to your character probably. Rallying cry and Felwood flower are +10% crit alone, and that's ignoring the other effects as well.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    I have a question about this, because I never raided in Vanilla. So these world buffs, I'm assuming you lost them when you wiped? So do the raids go back out and get all the world buffs every time they wipe? Or do they just spend the rest of the night trying without those buffs?
    World buff used to persist through death before that was changed in one of the last patch. Most people from vanilla used onyxia and hakkar buffs. Other buffs weren't really used afaik (Kungen said they didn't think about using dm buffs to clear naxx for example).

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Armor has nothing to do with crushing blows, but having a shield and activating "shield block" has everything to do with. Dual-wielding to increase threat means you WILL get crushing (and crit) in the face. If healers are powerful enough it might be survivable, but it's certainly a lot more damage to heal.
    I'd guess the central point is that they are able to kill the boss fast enough that it makes up for the increased healing required.
    The whole idea is that since everyone is going all out and dps don't have to hold back for threat then the boss will die much much faster and benefit more from min/maxing consumes.

    DW Fury Prot is also played far more dynamically than you said here, like you don't just take crit/crushes to the face and do nothing about it, you swap to shield and shield block (single gcd for both actions) when your health is below a threshold that would lead a crush to be fatal, when your health is good you switch back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piesor View Post
    It's funny how everybody quotes this info that was written in a comment from Blizzard.
    You definitely had a 100% crit chance on a sitting target back in Vanilla. I always used this to have a 100% crit opener with my Rogue. I did not attack when my targets were fighting, I attacked when they were regenerating. After the first hit the target stood up automatically (also if afk). I would bet anything I got on this and I am totally confused that nobody remembers this, especially because so many people pretend that they played Vanilla (Bliizard client).
    iirc this was fixed around the same time they added a cap on charges to reckoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Guess it depends on what you call "unusual". I mean, I had some shitty nights with 300 ms ping, and it happened sometimes that I had huge 800 ms ping, that I just considered "unplayable" and was playing only because we were nearly never able to fill all 40 spots. But it WAS pretty uncommon, and the VAST majority of the time I was under 100.

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    There is a huge gap between "using a number of buffs" and "using each and every possible buff, including world buffs". The latter was definitely NOT "normal", even at high-end Naxx level.
    just straight false, there was so much griefing going on in vanilla over world buffs for higher end naxx guilds like spawning the world buffs early, ganking raiders with world buffs, etc. etc.

    was it "normal" for *most* guilds? perhaps not. was it "normal" for guilds progging naxx? yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    World buff used to persist through death before that was changed in one of the last patch. Most people from vanilla used onyxia and hakkar buffs. Other buffs weren't really used afaik (Kungen said they didn't think about using dm buffs to clear naxx for example).
    The only world buff that would persist through death was the ZG buff, the dragonslayer would always cancel when you died.

    it was also pretty standard that people would get the Songflower from felwood.

    the only real difference was stated in a post above that this was more reserved for when you were close to killing a new boss or for harder bosses than speed clearing but the meta has shifted.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    I have a question about this, because I never raided in Vanilla. So these world buffs, I'm assuming you lost them when you wiped? So do the raids go back out and get all the world buffs every time they wipe? Or do they just spend the rest of the night trying without those buffs?
    Depends. Answering first part of your question - you lost most of them on death, except Spirit of Zandalar (aka ZG buff). For the second part - it depends if you are buffing to be able to beat the boss (which was why most people were buffing back in vanilla) or because you want to make the run faster, or kill farm bosses faster because you want to leave more time for progression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    It's the opposite actually. Druid burst threat is unreliable (if the first maul is a crit than you are good, if you get miss/parry/dodge 3 times in a row dps have to wait) but on the long run it is on par with a dual wielding fury tank (would say even better with the gnome mace). And druid take a lot less damage than a dualwield fury tank.

    A fury tank can switch to a shield and activate shield wall if it's a fight where he expect a huge damage spike (like a boss enraging at low health). Druid don't really have tools to help with that.
    If you get 3 maul misses/dodges/parry you're not keeping threat regardless of your role. Again, show me a parse of a feral tank doing more than 2.5k tps on any boss.
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  10. #170
    Joshhua, you might be right in your point, but I really just wonder when exactly they will implement weapons like medieval mauls and axes (like these: https://cozyhousetoday.com/best-splitting-maul-reviews), and the option for us, users, to be able to upgrade items as much as we want. So we could compare to each other not just by characters, but by weapons as well.

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    It's the opposite actually. Druid burst threat is unreliable (if the first maul is a crit than you are good, if you get miss/parry/dodge 3 times in a row dps have to wait) but on the long run it is on par with a dual wielding fury tank (would say even better with the gnome mace). And druid take a lot less damage than a dualwield fury tank.
    Ok, but how much damage your druid can cripple to the tank?

    And ... the contrary?

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miake View Post
    that was a legit kill from a world top 10 guild before WotLK was released, this is proof to what i said earlier about Brutalis! you can see the tanks targets in the pic, Brutalis Dead
    The fact that you keep calling the boss "Brutalis" is both hilarious and sad as it instantly discredits you.

    Nobody was "averaging" 2.8k dps in BC (except for rets and rogues among others after the WotLK patch).

    Either your misremembering and the kill you're referring to was after the pre-patch hit or you're full of shit. It's very simple.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    1200 in Vanilla? No one did 1200 DPS in Vanilla.

    People did 1200-1300 in SSC and TK during TBC at level 70
    WotLK HCs was tuned for 1400dps at level 80.

    If you could break 1000 sustained DPS in Vanilla, you were top of the pop..
    On my fury warrior I would sustain over 1k regularly.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaelexi View Post
    On my fury warrior I would sustain over 1k regularly.
    That's pretty low for SSC. Was this at the beginning or did U have full T5. If full T5 you might as well have been a shadow priest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    That's pretty low for SSC. Was this at the beginning or did U have full T5. If full T5 you might as well have been a shadow priest.
    No in Naxx, it was easy to do. I have the best pieces out of Naxx and AQ40 with a TF and Torment of the Banished, Blademaster's and being a human.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    The fact that you keep calling the boss "Brutalis" is both hilarious and sad as it instantly discredits you.

    Nobody was "averaging" 2.8k dps in BC (except for rets and rogues among others after the WotLK patch).

    Either your misremembering and the kill you're referring to was after the pre-patch hit or you're full of shit. It's very simple.
    Brutallus, I would regularly do 2.4k+ on a SM/Ruin Lock, bonuses of getting 4 hero's in the fight.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaelexi View Post
    Brutallus, I would regularly do 2.4k+ on a SM/Ruin Lock, bonuses of getting 4 hero's in the fight.
    Along with thousands of other people, congratulations. How is that relevant to anything I said?

  16. #176
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    I don't recall that era of the game that well and I didn't do a ton of hardcore raiding in Vanilla Naxx, but I seem to recall around 800-1k being the norm for most people on the meters.
    i am not the real stegblob. My blog where I review books and crap.

  17. #177
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    When I played DMs looked like this on Patchwerk

    Rogue - 700-850 DPS
    Fury Warrior - 700-850 DPS
    Ignite Mage - 800-900 DPS
    Fire Mage - 550-700 DPS
    Warlocks - 500-700 DPS
    Hunters - 500

    That was with Vanilla values (no private server armor or resistance values), on Horde in basically 80% of Naxx gear (my guild didn't kill 4HM and beyond). We never 'abused' world buffs, so those values were with standard consumables (flasks, pots, and other misc consumables). World buffs skew those damage values quite a bit, and you start to see fury warriors scale faster than everything else on the list.

    I was always top of the DM on my rogue in Vanilla most of the time on PW, with 850 +/- a bit of DPS the majority of the time. Sometimes I would be usurped by our fury warrior, with one of our fire mages beating us or being right around the same DPS levels. In a world with world buffs though, a rogue can't realistically compete with fury warriors because they simply scale better. Going out of your way to get every single world buff, diremaul buffs and felwood flowers is a decent amount of setup and prep prior to a raid though, and it's something we only ever did on Loatheb.

    I think human fury warriors are the highest theoretical DPS simply because salvation was OP, the best one handers in the game were swords and they got a free +5 weapon skill. If horde side tanks could hold aggro and there was iLvL equal one handed axes, I doubt anything would actually beat an orc fury warrior.

    As far as Brutallus goes, I routinely did 2.6-2.8K DPS with a single glaive on my rogue prior to the 3.0 patch that made everything stupid. If you had both warglaives, you absolutely would be in the 2800-3100 range as a rogue. Warlock DPS could be just as good as rogues (maybe not the ones with double glaives), but it swung a decent amount depending on whether they got a lot of crits, and how many of their shadow bolts got to benefit from the shadow vulnerability debuff. Brutallus numbers are hard to gauge, because it entirely depended on how many blood lusts your group got fed.

    Fury Warriors and Ret Paladins in TBC pre-patch did in the upper 3k and lower 4k range. Upper 2k range and very low 3k range was possible for a few classes prior to TBC pre-patch, but was still reliant on how many blood lusts you got fed. (Most groups had 3-5 shaman).

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooba View Post
    I always laugh when someone effectively asserts that Top 100-guild Vanilla players couldn't hold a candle to [redacted] denizens. You really think the top Rogue or Warrior from <Risen> of Alleria didn't know what he was doing? BiS was known to those who were engaged in top end raiding. That's not new. So was farming for consumable buffs. Yes things have changed, but for every Wolfshead helm discovery there are two or more errors that [redacted] got wrong. Onyxia head buff? Not gonna happen the way PS players are used to. Flasking? Good luck affording it when Black Lotus has a spawn rate orders of magnitude lower. They've admitted that armor values are guessed. Boss ability functionality is a complete crap shoot, etc.

    Those DPS numbers aren't occurring under real Vanilla conditions, and it shows.
    Yeah people had no idea even in top guilds, my friend raided in Rope Town which was ranked decently high I think, and they would have some people doing like 50-75% the dps of another person of same class and gear. People also died to not hiding behind ice blocks on saph even in top guilds, which is like LFR mechanic now. People were really bad back then. Top end raiding was no where near as optimized as gaming is now when it gets competitive.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherblood View Post
    YPeople also died to not hiding behind ice blocks on saph even in top guilds, which is like LFR mechanic now.
    You got naxx knowledge from naxx 25.

    Originally iceblocks could spawn on 1 side of the saph on very far ends and add blizzard potentially slowing you, gl running across whole room inbefore you and others shittalk how better players are nowadays. People would go engineering and use free action potions to make it almost always on time.

    An AQ geared mage +650spell, 30% crit, hit capped just by spamming fireball NO IGNITE included should do at worst 750dps with CoE+imp. scorch.

    The math can be boiled down to ALMOST this.
    [(Spell Avg direct base damage + 10% talents + spelldamage) x 1.25% (coe + scorch) x 1.3 (crit rate)] - % resist rate and %.
    Last edited by Sorcereria; 2019-05-16 at 11:18 PM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    The fact that you keep calling the boss "Brutalis" is both hilarious and sad as it instantly discredits you.

    Nobody was "averaging" 2.8k dps in BC (except for rets and rogues among others after the WotLK patch).

    Either your misremembering and the kill you're referring to was after the pre-patch hit or you're full of shit. It's very simple.
    you really think i give a shit how a boss from 12 years ago, name is spelt?

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