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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    What are considered "balanced" sin stats?

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...gthol/sealfate

    My sin rogue at 398 ilvl with 23% Crit, 23% haste, and 31% mastery (in game, armory says something different idk why). Is this considered "balanced" or should I be aiming for higher or lower mastery?

    I'm currently running subterfuge, elaborate planning, and vigor, with shrouded suff x3 and nothing personal x2, i mostly do mythic + (armory says i haven't done any but raider io shows)

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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...gthol/sealfate

    My sin rogue at 398 ilvl with 23% Crit, 23% haste, and 31% mastery (in game, armory says something different idk why). Is this considered "balanced" or should I be aiming for higher or lower mastery?

    I'm currently running subterfuge, elaborate planning, and vigor, with shrouded suff x3 and nothing personal x2, i mostly do mythic + (armory says i haven't done any but raider io shows)
    Use e.g. raidbots.com to sim yourself.

  3. #3
    If you do mostly M+
    CRIT>MASTERY>HASTE (i always keep around 15% haste for tyrranical)
    3x Echoing Blades, 1x Shrouded suffocation + 2x something like Nothing Personal, Double Dose, Twist the knife...

    Obviously the ideal case would be having another azerite set with 3x Echoing Blades, 3x Shrouded Suffocation for Fortified, but yea, either respec every week, or be lucky with rolling 415 random azerite

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Use e.g. raidbots.com to sim yourself.
    Congratulations on being a twat and not saying anything that has anything to do with what I asked, and giving the classic "just sim it" answer. First reply, too. Impressive. I doubt you even read the OP, tbh.


    @Rikkuu, I'm genuinely surprised by your answer of haste being dead last on your priority list, because every other source says it's #1 by leagues. Can you elaborate on why you think that? The rogues I see doing high keys all have over 20% haste.

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Congratulations on being a twat and not saying anything that has anything to do with what I asked, and giving the classic "just sim it" answer. First reply, too. Impressive. I doubt you even read the OP, tbh.


    @Rikkuu, I'm genuinely surprised by your answer of haste being dead last on your priority list, because every other source says it's #1 by leagues. Can you elaborate on why you think that? The rogues I see doing high keys all have over 20% haste.
    http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/#GandS and https://www.wowhead.com/assassinatio...ltiple-targets both list haste as the worst for multi-target. I'm not sure what guide/sources you're referencing. You still keep some ofc, and thus the sim yourself with DungeonSlice (or hectic add cleave) if you're simming for M+ to not drop too much.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Congratulations on being a twat and not saying anything that has anything to do with what I asked, and giving the classic "just sim it" answer. First reply, too. Impressive. I doubt you even read the OP, tbh.


    @Rikkuu, I'm genuinely surprised by your answer of haste being dead last on your priority list, because every other source says it's #1 by leagues. Can you elaborate on why you think that? The rogues I see doing high keys all have over 20% haste.
    Wow.. there was no reason to call me a twat. To sim yourself IS the best way to know if you’re well-balanced. But since you already called me a twat, I have no problem being one then:

    What am I surpose to answer? You didn’t even specify what scenario you referred to. The stat weights change based on the type of fight. Haste is good for single target damage, but not so much for AOE. It’s hard to explain even simple things to someone so obviously ignorant as you. You probably can’t figure out how to sim yourself.

    And to be honest, you do LFR and +8 keys. When someone suck as much as you, balancing doesn’t really matter. Don’t try to run before you can walk. Perfect stat distribution cannot compensate for you being bad at the game.

    Best regards,

    The Twat.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-04-08 at 10:19 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Congratulations on being a twat and not saying anything that has anything to do with what I asked, and giving the classic "just sim it" answer. First reply, too. Impressive. I doubt you even read the OP, tbh.


    @Rikkuu, I'm genuinely surprised by your answer of haste being dead last on your priority list, because every other source says it's #1 by leagues. Can you elaborate on why you think that? The rogues I see doing high keys all have over 20% haste.
    like it or not, but it is the most accurate answer, you ungrateful twat. learn to fucking sim you lazy piece of shit and stop being a bitch.
    its impossible to know the exact optimal stat balance, for every gear combination. a sim will give you the best answer.
    we could pull a stat balance answer out of our ass, but odds are that it wont be as accurate as a sim. even if it was spot on, it would change whenever you changed your gear.

    haste is best for 1-3 targets, because it makes your bleeds and poisons tick faster.
    crit pulls ahead of haste on more targets because fok crit combo point generation, and it makes everything do more dmg. haste doesnt gain much value above 3 targets because theres not much benefit from putting bleeds on more than 3 targets, since youll just end up energy capping.
    mastery is an overall decent stat. i guess it pulls ahead of haste on big packs, because it increase the dmg of the both the instant dmg and dot dmg of deadly poison, haste only increase the dot dmg, id never prio mastery over haste myself tho.
    vers is the worst stat, but not useless, its not unlikely that a 405 piece with vers can be better than a 400, SIM IT!

    if you prio trash dmg over boss dmg and use the echoing blades traits, which will give you the highest overall dps in most +10 dungeons because of reaping. crit will get even more valuable and i assume it overtakes haste already at 3 targets, SIM IT!
    dunno if youre doing 10s yet with 398 ilvl, but without reaping, id say youre better of with a dot cleaving setup, which makes haste more valuable.
    there are many things to take into consideration, no magic golden ratio answer.

    do you want the correct or the short incorrect answer?

    guide how to sim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnnpUCvbxVs
    Last edited by mojusk; 2019-04-09 at 07:35 AM.

  8. #8
    are we not spamming FoK on multi target (4+) and just hitting everything with rupture? with poison bomb and all the energy regen that seems to do really well for me

    on topic: traits seem to be much more important than your stats. hunt for traits. and don't call me a twat.
    No sense crying over spilt beer, unless you're drunk...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargulf the Happy Husky View Post
    are we not spamming FoK on multi target (4+) and just hitting everything with rupture? with poison bomb and all the energy regen that seems to do really well for me

    on topic: traits seem to be much more important than your stats. hunt for traits. and don't call me a twat.
    Nopes - get 3x echoing blades traits, FoK like a madman while 5cp rupturing targets that are about to die, weaving in an envenom every 3-4 FoKs. try to Maintain 1-3 ruptures....at minimum try to start with 1-3 ruptures and lead into rupturing targets that are about to die and feed you a full energy bar.

  10. #10
    im a 410 rogue main, and im at 23.~ crit 24 haste 34 mastery, for Raids and ST , on m+ i run with 27~crit and 14-17 haste and around 25 mastery. You always need some haste for m+ just for the boss fights, i run 2xEB 3xSS 1xTC , havent had much luck on azerites.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Congratulations on being a twat and not saying anything that has anything to do with what I asked, and giving the classic "just sim it" answer. First reply, too. Impressive. I doubt you even read the OP, tbh.


    @Rikkuu, I'm genuinely surprised by your answer of haste being dead last on your priority list, because every other source says it's #1 by leagues. Can you elaborate on why you think that? The rogues I see doing high keys all have over 20% haste.
    On 4+ targets you lose the benefit of haste giving energy regen, because you just are capped all the time, no matter which skills u use, so mastery + crit is better. On tyrranical weeks, Assa shines on boss dps, especially on higher keys where you can use Vendetta more than once. If you want to be super hardcore, best is having 2 gearsets for tyrranical/fortified (i.e. more haste for Tyrranical and few single target traits, shitload of crit and some mastery for fortified). Of course having "some" haste is always good, thats why i said i try to keep around 15% haste even for fotified. But yea i play outlaw this season anyways, assa only some specific dungeons with nasty bosses.

    Crit is for proccing echoing blades, which is the shitz atm.

    "The rogues I see doing high keys" - i wonder who you mean, because everyone and their dog plays outlaw. And you just cannot take armory into account, because armory updates have been skewed for a long time.

    Now for raiding, haste is king i will not deny that, but OP was talking hes mostly doing M+
    Last edited by Rikkuu; 2019-04-09 at 08:41 AM.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Hm, I have 410ilvl equipped and my stats are 25% crit, 10% haste and 45% mastery and it's working wonderfully in raids. I don't do M+, but if i did, I'd go Outlaw anyway.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Hm, I have 410ilvl equipped and my stats are 25% crit, 10% haste and 45% mastery and it's working wonderfully in raids. I don't do M+, but if i did, I'd go Outlaw anyway.
    outlaw better in raids ? Im at the point now where i rather skip a raid then go through another one as assassin. Really bored and want to change, My parses have gone downhill lately aswell. Maybe i should just swap to outlaw and try that for a while

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    outlaw better in raids ? Im at the point now where i rather skip a raid then go through another one as assassin. Really bored and want to change, My parses have gone downhill lately aswell. Maybe i should just swap to outlaw and try that for a while
    Nono, I said if I would do M+, then I'd go Outlaw, even though I loathe that specc. I play Assa in raids, have since Legion and until roll the bones is gone forever, Assa will always be my main specc.

    Or are you asking or saying Outlaw is actually better now? I don't know, I only raid Heroic and don't really care what's actually top notch. Assa works fine to clear HC, so that's what I play.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Nono, I said if I would do M+, then I'd go Outlaw, even though I loathe that specc. I play Assa in raids, have since Legion and until roll the bones is gone forever, Assa will always be my main specc.

    Or are you asking or saying Outlaw is actually better now? I don't know, I only raid Heroic and don't really care what's actually top notch. Assa works fine to clear HC, so that's what I play.
    No. i just read your comment wrong. Missed out the whole m+ part somehow, and i thought you said you went outlaw in raids. Now when i read your comment again, i don't understand how i could missread it as bad as i did

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    Congratulations on being a twat and not saying anything that has anything to do with what I asked, and giving the classic "just sim it" answer. First reply, too. Impressive. I doubt you even read the OP, tbh.
    Imagine being someone who lives in the past and not only doesn't sim things, but assumes we have passive stat weights like before. We simply don't anymore and stats are fairly decently balanced. Your absolute worst stat can become your best if you neglect it. Your worst stat can become your best based on trait/talent set up. You also failed to mention any scenario of what you're doing besides mostly doing "M+" and also running an awful trait setup to begin with, so I doubt you really give a fuck about your optimal setup since you're being so hostile towards simming.

    TL;DR: Get two sets of Azerite/have fun reforging because that's basically what you need between raiding/M+ as Assa (or just go Outlaw and use the same setup for everything outside of changing a single talent).

    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    do you want the correct or the short incorrect answer?
    This is by far the best piece of advice anyone will be given on the subject. "X > Y > Z" is old-school thinking and isn't accurate anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Nono, I said if I would do M+, then I'd go Outlaw, even though I loathe that specc. I play Assa in raids, have since Legion and until roll the bones is gone forever, Assa will always be my main specc.

    Or are you asking or saying Outlaw is actually better now? I don't know, I only raid Heroic and don't really care what's actually top notch. Assa works fine to clear HC, so that's what I play.
    Assa works fine in M+. Their DPS is actually pretty close. The worst thing about Assa is the lost of Gouge and Restless Blades (CDR for Vanish, Sprint, etc), and its cooldown (Vendetta) sucks on big packs unless there's a high health miniboss or priority target.

    With the impending Wits nerf though, they'll be even more close together; Assa might even overtake Outlaw on damage on average (since Roll the Bones sucks).
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2019-05-15 at 06:41 PM.
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  17. #17
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Imagine being as passive aggressive as Polarthief, typing like a twat and acting like we didn't have passive stat weight LITERALLY LAST XPAC, talking about "living in the past" XD. Get over yourself, kid. Jesus Christ.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2019-05-18 at 07:57 AM.

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  18. #18
    So Outlaw is still > Sin for M+?

    But if someone is running M+ as Sin then crit is the way to go? I assume 15% haste is the softcap so to say?

  19. #19
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Hm, I have 410ilvl equipped and my stats are 25% crit, 10% haste and 45% mastery and it's working wonderfully in raids. I don't do M+, but if i did, I'd go Outlaw anyway.
    407 equipped here with 17% crit, 7% haste, and 45% mastery and similarly don't have any problems in M+ or casual raiding.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mashanerz View Post
    So Outlaw is still > Sin for M+?

    But if someone is running M+ as Sin then crit is the way to go? I assume 15% haste is the softcap so to say?
    Crit for multi-target, haste for single target. It all really depends on what is important to you, or what your M+ team comp wants/needs. I stay mainly ST because I'm still capable of semi decent AOE. But at the end of the day Sin, with the right stats and azerite, still isn't going to beat the typical AOE classes such as Outlaw or DH. We don't have insta damage or insta aoe. It's just the nature of poison/bleed class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    407 equipped here with 17% crit, 7% haste, and 45% mastery and similarly don't have any problems in M+ or casual raiding.
    I'm at ~23% Crit, 25% Haste, and 31% Mast. It's about, because they move due to trinkets and what not, which technically should be averaged in, but this is the baseline. When I sim I get Mast>Hast=Mast and it's about 2.6 vs 2.45, 2.43 dps per point. So they are really close for the most part. And I'm not really sure how the Optimization trinket (Haste/Crit) is effecting the whole sim because every minute it dumps vers and mast into Haste and Crit for 12 seconds.

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