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  1. #1

    First impressions matter

    Let's say you are an old school middle aged person who has never used the internet much. One day you decide to check it out to see what's the buzz all about. Unfortunately for you, you stumble across total cesspits like 4chan, reddit, Daily Stormer and all the rest. You form an opinion: the internet is full of toxic people.

    Then a group of white knights comes screeching at you, "NOT ALL INTERNET USERS ARE LIKE THAT". Yep, not all internet users are like that. Fortunately for you, you have been on the internet for decades and know how to correctly identify and avoid shit like incels, 4chan etc. A person visiting the internet for the first time, however, does not. It is not their duty to be super knowledgeable from the get-go and form the correct first impression. They see several toxic subgroups, they decide that the entirety of the internet is toxic and you can't blame them for it. The internet, on the other hand, should have collectively cleaned up its act and gotten rid of its more toxic elements in order to make it more welcoming. Habitual internet users in this case don't have the excuse of ignorance.

    Let's apply this to other groups.

    A white person complaining about black gangbangers and gangsters can claim ignorance. The black community, however, knows that there are both black gangbangers and completely well-adjusted black doctors, engineers, scientists, office workers, movie-makers etc. The black community, however, cannot claim ignorance and disavow the gangbangers that are a part of their community by making statements like "NOT ALL BLACK PEOPLE". It is a community-specific problem and it should be fixed by said community.

    A woman complaining about fuckboys from the local frat can claim ignorance. Men as a whole, however, know that there are both fuckboys, incels, mgtows and well-adjusted, totally sane men. Men, however, cannot claim ignorance and disavow the fuckboys that are a part of their group by making statements like "NOT ALL MEN". It's a group-specific problem and should be fixed by said group.

    Same goes for a lot of other groups and their specific problematic subgroups:

    Women and gold-diggers.

    Americans and Trump voters.

    Muslims and Jihadists.

    White people and far-right KKK / Nazi groups.

    If you belong to a certain group, it is YOUR duty to clean your shit up. You can't expect other people not to develop feelings of hatred towards you after being exposed to the less savory subgroups of your group. They can claim ignorance. You cannot.
    Last edited by Thwart; 2019-04-09 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Infracted for forbidden topics

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    You can't just "clean up" those subgroups. Trump voters are what, 62 mils people? That's a whole country. Gold diggers? Don't wanna even touch that. White supremacy? That's pretty much a regional phenomenon. I wonder what causes it. My native country is white, maybe 99%, and there's basically no white supremacy going on here. Arab and black students come often and I haven't heard one complaining about discrimination, although I'm sure some cases do exist, and I've been able to have very close friendships with them, without any of the "race war" fears you see on the web. Jihadis? Don't wanna touch on that either. For damn obvious reasons. Labels will fly and shit will hit the fan.

    These are actually pretty sizable groups. You can't fix these things over night. It will take decades, and by then, other bigotries and issues will arise.
    You can't fix those subgroups overnight, no. But you can strive to improve education, offer better services and make those people feel included in the larger community so that they don't go their own way and find themselves in toxic subgroups. The first step towards solving a problem is admitting that you have a problem. But people these days would rather bury their heads in sand and chant "NOT ALL X ARE LIKE THAT" instead of doing something.

  3. #3
    I am not even going to bother trying to unwrap this particular rubber band ball of crazy
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  4. #4
    Scarab Lord bungeebungee's Avatar
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    @Wilfire Where the hell does this "old school middle aged person who has never used the internet much" crap come from? Did you just wake up from a 20 year nap? You missed the years when AOL bombarded people non-stop with CDs to get them online?

    I realize that you're just using an ageist stereotype to lead into your bait for discussion of race, religion, and gender but sheesh ... you basement dwelling twenty-somethings need to put down the Mountain Dew, wipe the Cheetos powder off, and get out once in a while. [If sarcasm detector was not engaged, you were just served a stereotype in reply.]
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

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  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire
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    Well, when you've been around the block long enough, you eventually might start to pick up that even if you don't know all people in a demographic (based on your examples), that it's not hard to think on your own that that demographic isn't all the same and just one way, without seeing the proof of it yourself. It's not ignorance to think that just because you know how one person from that demographic is, that you also don't know all of them, and they might not be the same, and so you don't even need to see a real example to have doubts about any group being all one way and feel reluctant about making generalizations about said group.

    Ignorance can be fixed, but if why someone is ignorant has to do with something that isn't fixable, than there is no amount of education that can change things.

    Personally, when I see a person from any group or sub-group with an issue, I don't generally chalk it up to "all of them are like that", I tend to examine why they're like that and a majority of the time it ends up being a personal issue that anyone from any demographic can fall into.

  6. #6
    How about milquetoast hipsters with beards?
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
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    Oh my...

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Dwarfhamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    How about milquetoast hipsters with beards?
    You used "milquetoast." I love you again.

  8. #8
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Let's say you are an old school middle aged person who has never used the internet much. One day you decide to check it out to see what's the buzz all about. Unfortunately for you, you stumble across total cesspits like 4chan, reddit, Daily Stormer and all the rest. You form an opinion: the internet is full of toxic people.
    What? How? Even if you haven't "used internet much" (which is kinda ridiculous if you aren't, i don't know, 100 years old and rely on others to do stuff for you) how do you just "stumble across" 4chan or reddit? And why would this lead to realization that "internet is full of toxic people", especially considering that you have dealt with people throughout your life and know that people can be asshats and that wouldn't surprise you at all. Or considering that chances are quite high that you are already involved in social interactions via internet of social networks anyways.
    Did someone just got unfrozen from the past? Is this a movie plot or something? Because what you are saying has nothing to do with reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Then a group of white knights comes screeching at you, "NOT ALL INTERNET USERS ARE LIKE THAT".
    How often do you have groups of people coming to you and screeching at you stuff? Maybe you should move to other neighborhood?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    If you belong to a certain group, it is YOUR duty to clean your shit up. You can't expect other people not to develop feelings of hatred towards you after being exposed to the less savory subgroups of your group. They can claim ignorance. You cannot.
    If you think about it this way - you should definitely take a break from social media for couple of months... You know, being outraged and commanding others to act in certain way or feel certain things (especially after labeling them, so it's easier to antagonize them) is not healthy or even reasonable thing to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    disregard that update, i completely misread that part
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  9. #9
    The Forgettable Forgettable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    If you belong to a certain group, it is YOUR duty to clean your shit up.
    This is where you're wrong. It is not my duty to clean up other people's shit. And just because you say it's my shit, doesn't make it so.

  10. #10
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgettable View Post
    This is where you're wrong. It is not my duty to clean up other people's shit. And just because you say it's my shit, doesn't make it so.
    Honestly i'm all in favor of cleaning shit in general, because if you expect people to clean shit while it's obvious that they won't - you better take the case in your own hands, for, you know, your own sake, since you don't want to live in shit. So when your neighbor shits in front of your door and admits it - you call the cops and clean that shit afterwards, because he for sure won't. But in THIS general case of "all white people are responsible for anything each small group does" it doesn't make any sense, because it's not literal shit that needs to be cleaned up. It's people reacting to other people, you can't clean that up, it's people need to get their shit together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  11. #11
    Im fine with people saying "not all X", its the people forcing people into a group they dont feel like they belong to that are doing something wrong.

    I belong to "men", but I dont belong to the group rapist, so if someone say Men are rapists I dont feel included and why wouldnt i say Not all men? Or if I want to expand or shrink the group to "human" or "muslim men" then suddenly im a bigot idiot just because I dont agree on what your doing (Lumping me into a group of rapists where i dont belong).

  12. #12
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    I belong to "men", but I dont belong to the group rapist, so if someone say Men are rapists I dont feel included and why wouldnt i say Not all men?
    Off course you would want to say that. To me OP creates an impression of someone who wants to defend people who like to put people in groups using bullshit logic to achieve their agenda. Which is not fine IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  13. #13
    Your contention is stupid. Guilt-by-association (which is what you are essentially arguing) is illogical and narrow-minded. I have zero responsibility and should feel no guilt for other INDIVIDUALS who choose to behave badly. Moreover, if you really want to apply the logic you are arguing, then ANY bad/evil/immoral behavior is ALL our fault because they are committed by humans. After all, we all fall under the group of homo sapien.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by NoKingRulesForever View Post
    Your contention is stupid. Guilt-by-association (which is what you are essentially arguing) is illogical and narrow-minded. I have zero responsibility and should feel no guilt for other INDIVIDUALS who choose to behave badly. Moreover, if you really want to apply the logic you are arguing, then ANY bad/evil/immoral behavior is ALL our fault because they are committed by humans. After all, we all fall under the group of homo sapien.
    And that's how some of the worst crimes in history have been committed. Because people who could have done something about them were too apathetic, shortsighted and narrow-minded until it was already far too late.

    p.s. lots of real issues are the fault of humanity as a whole. Global warming for example. Because people dodge responsibility instead of tackling the problem head-on, we all run the risk of roasting to death.

  15. #15
    Scarab Lord Mister Cheese's Avatar
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    If you're part of a bad sub-group you're just as bad as they are even though you don't share their ideology. Yeah. Great post.

    News flash. Every group of people has dickheads. There is no fixing that.

  16. #16
    and what exactly are you doing to eliminate your subgroups of commies and incels?
    35,145 islamic attacks since Sept 11 2001
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  17. #17
    Opel* drivers are considered to be old men with hats, as in slowtarded drivers. I do my best to change people's opinions by driving fast past them

    I am being a contributor!

    *Buick in the US I believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.

  18. #18
    Warchief Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    L
    If you belong to a certain group, it is YOUR duty to clean your shit up. You can't expect other people not to develop feelings of hatred towards you after being exposed to the less savory subgroups of your group.
    When are you going to follow up on this yourself?

  19. #19
    Not always. I have seen cases where the first impressions of another can be way off the truth.
    The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that… it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.” - Thomas Jefferson.

    If I do not respond to your post directed at myself, there will be three reasons. 1. You are on my ignore list. 2. You did not make a post I felt was worthy of a response. 3. I simply never saw it, as I do not dig thru posts if I been offline for a while.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    If you belong to a certain group, it is YOUR duty to clean your shit up. You can't expect other people not to develop feelings of hatred towards you after being exposed to the less savory subgroups of your group. They can claim ignorance. You cannot.
    You don't have control over other people's actions so I fail to see how it's your duty.

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