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  1. #181
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Spirituality is deeply ingrained in the United States with the vast majority of people across all races believing in god. Spirituality does not play any part in suicide rates look at countries like Guyana and Russia.
    To a lot of Americans religion is now a creed; in affect they are spiritually dead Christians.

    Being nutty for Jesus, while being greedy, rude, hateful, etc, etc, does not a Christian make.

    African Americans generally, Catholics, and Orthodox Jews tend to be an exception.

    Though of course there are people in all denominations that take their faith in the sense it was supposed to be taken and have a true link to the divine as they see it.
    Last edited by Connal; 2019-04-11 at 01:59 AM.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    To a lot of Americans religion is now a creed; in affect they are spiritually dead Christians.

    African Americans generally, Catholics, and Jews tend to be an exception.

    Though of course there are people in all denominations that take their faith in the sense it was supposed to be taken and have a true link to the divine as they see it.
    I don't think religion plays any part of this belief in god doesn't make people immune to depression and anxiety, there are plenty of deeply religious countries with high suicide rates.

  3. #183
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    *nod* I am or am not white depending on who you ask... but being a first gen immigrant I do still feel a connection to Russia, and more transcendentally a "Jewish" history that I learned about in the religious private school I went to the first few years of living in the US (the Jewish Org that relocated us to the US insisted).

    I am not sure how fully "white" Americans people feel personally, but just observationally I agree with you, they seem to feel like their culture is either dying, getting worse, or they tend to have no real cultural identity at all... except maybe loosely associated with their hometowns. The exceptions are religous white people, and Jews who see themselves as white.
    I'd say I'm helped too by not being from here. I can't really be "White" except be outside the definition. I am "White" purely because others have decided as such and I can't really change their mind. In my heart and in my soul I am still where I was born and the language I speak.

    I'd say Jewish Americans have a lot to panic over since much of Jewish America is vanishing. Between low birth rates, immigration to Israel, collapse of religious faith and intermarriage; the American Jew is a vanishing thing. By American Jew I mean the heirs of Yiddish and those whom largely came here during the Russian Pogroms and whose descendents gave us Bernie Sanders. Soon all that might be left of Jewish America is some Holocaust memorials. Though Israeli's will come but Israeli's aren't the classic Jewish person most Americans think of in their minds. Gone is Yiddish and in is Hebrew. If not for Jews being the most prosperous and influential and well off ethnic minority in America I suspect suicide might be prevelant for them too. BUT much of the dissappearence of Jewish culture in America is assimilation or migration to Israel. Questions of What Jewish Identity in America might be about have been difficult, and as Peter Novick (Himself an American Jew and famed historian) wrote in his The Holocaust in American Life that likely all that will be left is Holocaust memorialization or merging with the stronger Israeli identity as a sizable proportion of people classified as Jewish in America will be Israeli and so the old Ashkenazic culture that produced say the film Fiddler on the Roof and such will be a relic of a particular era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Spirituality is deeply ingrained in the United States with the vast majority of people across all races believing in god. Spirituality does not play any part in suicide rates look at countries like Guyana and Russia.
    A problem you might be having is an attempt to universalize or seek a comprehensive answer to a problem in all places at all times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет

  4. #184
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I don't think religion plays any part of this belief in god doesn't make people immune to depression and anxiety, there are plenty of deeply religious countries with high suicide rates.
    It depends on the person, but it can help. It helped me.

    If you look at suicide rates, the most religious places tend to have the least amount of suicides.

    Look at the places that have Abrahamic faiths.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I'd say I'm helped too by not being from here. I can't really be "White" except be outside the definition. I am "White" purely because others have decided as such and I can't really change their mind. In my heart and in my soul I am still where I was born and the language I speak.

    I'd say Jewish Americans have a lot to panic over since much of Jewish America is vanishing. Between low birth rates, immigration to Israel, collapse of religious faith and intermarriage; the American Jew is a vanishing thing. By American Jew I mean the heirs of Yiddish and those whom largely came here during the Russian Pogroms and whose descendents gave us Bernie Sanders. Soon all that might be left of Jewish America is some Holocaust memorials. Though Israeli's will come but Israeli's aren't the classic Jewish person most Americans think of in their minds. Gone is Yiddish and in is Hebrew. If not for Jews being the most prosperous and influential and well off ethnic minority in America I suspect suicide might be prevelant for them too. BUT much of the dissappearence of Jewish culture in America is assimilation or migration to Israel. Questions of What Jewish Identity in America might be about have been difficult, and as Peter Novick (Himself an American Jew and famed historian) wrote in his The Holocaust in American Life that likely all that will be left is Holocaust memorialization or merging with the stronger Israeli identity as a sizable proportion of people classified as Jewish in America will be Israeli and so the old Ashkenazic culture that produced say the film Fiddler on the Roof and such will be a relic of a particular era.
    Interesting, thanks for the video, I will need to watch that.

    Honestly I am not that connected to the Jewish community in CA (my parents are more than I am where they live), so I can see what you said above being the case.

    I was mainly talking about the Orthodox Jews who have their own communities kind of like the Amish, in places like NY, etc.
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  5. #185
    Being depressed became one of the first real mental illness "show offs" in America. Everyone talked about having it in some way or another, many People confused being sad every so often as actual depression and convinced themselves they were depressed like some self fulfilling prophecy.

    People that then were legitimately depressed suddenly had to deal with every Person they turned to for help just saying "Oh yeah like I'm totally depressed as well" which just made the World seem like a far darker place than it was, which likely added to an actual depressed person feeling even more helpless in a careless World.

  6. #186
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Interesting, thanks for the video, I will need to watch that.

    Honestly I am not that connected to the Jewish community in CA (my parents are more than I am where they live), so I can see what you said above being the case.

    I was mainly talking about the Orthodox Jews who have their own communities kind of like the Amish, in places like NY, etc.
    True, they will probably still cling around and some may even preserve the Yiddish language for a few more generations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    сила лунной призмы составляет

  7. #187

    Country Crude Suicide Rate Rank
    Lithuania 31.9 suicides per 100k 1
    Russia 31 suicides per 100k 2
    Guyana 29.2 suicides per 100k 3
    South Korea 26.9 suicides per 100k 4
    Belarus 26.2 suicides per 100k 5
    Suriname 22.8 suicides per 100k 6
    Kazakhstan 22.5 suicides per 100k 7
    Ukraine 22.4 suicides per 100k 8
    Latvia 21.2 suicides per 100k 10
    Lesotho 21.2 suicides per 100k 9
    Belgium 20.7 suicides per 100k 11
    Hungary 19.1 suicides per 100k 12
    Slovenia 18.6 suicides per 100k 13
    Japan 18.5 suicides per 100k 14
    Uruguay 18.4 suicides per 100k 15
    Estonia 17.8 suicides per 100k 16
    France 17.7 suicides per 100k 17
    Switzerland 17.2 suicides per 100k 18
    Croatia 16.5 suicides per 100k 19
    Equatorial Guinea 16.4 suicides per 100k 20
    India 16.3 suicides per 100k 21
    Poland 16.2 suicides per 100k 22
    Moldova 15.9 suicides per 100k 24
    Finland 15.9 suicides per 100k 23
    Serbia 15.6 suicides per 100k 26
    Austria 15.6 suicides per 100k 25
    United States 15.3 suicides per 100k 27
    Sweden 14.8 suicides per 100k 28


    http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...te-by-country/




    We're not so bad off looks like. What the hell is going on in Lithuania?

    I wonder if there's a macho element to it? It takes some bravery to off yourself.
    Last edited by Independent voter; 2019-04-11 at 02:42 AM.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

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  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    It depends on the person, but it can help. It helped me.

    If you look at suicide rates, the most religious places tend to have the least amount of suicides.

    Look at the places that have Abrahamic faiths.
    I think a solid argument can be made for the sense of community that is build around religions it is probably the best way to help someone who is going through hard time not so much the faith part. But that aside other factors can easily override that such as economics.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Stands in the Fire View Post

    Country Crude Suicide Rate Rank
    Lithuania 31.9 suicides per 100k 1
    Russia 31 suicides per 100k 2
    Guyana 29.2 suicides per 100k 3
    South Korea 26.9 suicides per 100k 4
    Belarus 26.2 suicides per 100k 5
    Suriname 22.8 suicides per 100k 6
    Kazakhstan 22.5 suicides per 100k 7
    Ukraine 22.4 suicides per 100k 8
    Latvia 21.2 suicides per 100k 10
    Lesotho 21.2 suicides per 100k 9
    Belgium 20.7 suicides per 100k 11
    Hungary 19.1 suicides per 100k 12
    Slovenia 18.6 suicides per 100k 13
    Japan 18.5 suicides per 100k 14
    Uruguay 18.4 suicides per 100k 15
    Estonia 17.8 suicides per 100k 16
    France 17.7 suicides per 100k 17
    Switzerland 17.2 suicides per 100k 18
    Croatia 16.5 suicides per 100k 19
    Equatorial Guinea 16.4 suicides per 100k 20
    India 16.3 suicides per 100k 21
    Poland 16.2 suicides per 100k 22
    Moldova 15.9 suicides per 100k 24
    Finland 15.9 suicides per 100k 23
    Serbia 15.6 suicides per 100k 26
    Austria 15.6 suicides per 100k 25
    United States 15.3 suicides per 100k 27
    Sweden 14.8 suicides per 100k 28


    http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...te-by-country/




    We're not so bad off looks like. What the hell is going on in Lithuania?

    I wonder if there's a macho element to it? It takes some bravery to off yourself.
    Russia is deeply religious. So maybe that is getting to their heads.

    The stupidity of correlations tbh.
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  10. #190
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I think a solid argument can be made for the sense of community that is build around religions it is probably the best way to help someone who is going through hard time not so much the faith part. But that aside other factors can easily override that such as economics.
    It depends on the person. I have ASD; “community” makes me more anxious/standoffish than being alone. Too many people, too many variables to track.

    What you are talking about is the more materialistic gain from religion. I’m talking about something else.
    Last edited by Connal; 2019-04-11 at 03:24 AM.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Give Sethrak Blizz View Post
    Russia is deeply religious. So maybe that is getting to their heads.
    No.
    Russia is deeply atheist. And they've been killing off the competition to that for decades.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    No.
    Russia is deeply atheist. And they've been killing off the competition to that for decades.
    And you are basing this on what exactly? they are one of the most deeply religious countries in the world (71% orthodox Christian).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    It depends on the person. I have ASD; “community” makes me more anxious/standoffish than being alone. Too many people, too many variables to track.

    What you are talking about is the more materialistic gain from religion. I’m talking about something else.
    Which is why you have to look at the wider data and eliminate the obvious non factors look at South Korea for example only 2% identify as other the rest are religious their suicide rate is also high.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    And you are basing this on what exactly? they are one of the most deeply religious countries in the world (71% orthodox Christian).
    Interesting: Russia’s Journey from Orthodoxy to Atheism, and Back Again

    n Russia, there is a religious revival happening. Orthodox Christianity is thriving after enduring a 70-year period of atheistic Soviet rule. In 1991, just after the collapse of the USSR, about two-thirds of Russians claimed no religious affiliation. Today, 71 percent of Russians identify as Orthodox. One can now see priests giving sermons on television, encounter religious processions in St. Petersburg, and watch citizens lining up for holy water in Moscow. Even Moscow’s Darwin museum features a Christmas tree during the holidays.

    Russia was transformed from a bastion of conservative Orthodoxy in the nineteenth century into the world’s leading promoter of atheism in the twentieth. This historical backdrop of Russia’s remarkable journey from Orthodoxy to atheism, and back again, is chronicled in Victoria Smolkin’s A Sacred Space is Never Empty: A History of Soviet Atheism. It is the first full account of Soviet atheism, from the Bolshevik revolution in 1917 to the dissolution of the USSR in 1991.


    ----------------------

    It seems I'm a little behind on the times.

  14. #194
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    And you are basing this on what exactly? they are one of the most deeply religious countries in the world (71% orthodox Christian).

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which is why you have to look at the wider data and eliminate the obvious non factors look at South Korea for example only 2% identify as other the rest are religious their suicide rate is also high.


    Suicide in non-Abrahamic faiths is not seen as much of a sin.

    In Buddhism, for instance, there are times you could do it for the right reasons....

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self...itical_protest

    Suicide due to cultural decline, which seems to be happening in the US, is a different matter.
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  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post


    Suicide in non-Abrahamic faiths is not seen as much of a sin.

    In Buddhism, for instance, there are times you could do it for the right reasons....

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self...itical_protest

    Suicide due to cultural decline, which seems to be happening in the US, is a different matter.
    But suicide is a sin for Christians and it seems to be having no effect on Russia.

  16. #196
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    But suicide is a sin for Christians and it seems to be having no effect on Russia.
    Russia was atheist for a long time. Putin is using the church for his own ends, much like the religious right uses the church for their own political ends.

    When it becomes less of a creed, and people there actually take it on in a sincere manner the suicide rate may change.
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  17. #197
    Over 9000! Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    That depends on who you ask. Last jobs report showed 192K jobs added. Ask one of those. And keep asking across the nation, keeping in mind the unemployment rate.
    What jobs report showed that and when? I'm aware of the unemployment rate but I'm not a believer that info is accurate, especially with all the lay offs and stores closing this year. Even still another source of depression is the awful low paying jobs that people have no choice but to accept.
    But as I have stated before, I do not think the poverty rate has anything to do with the suicide rate increase of minors. If that was so, then the poorest nations should also have the highest rate among their minors. Is that the case?
    Different expectations are different all over the world. If you live in a dark cave all your life and haven't seen light then you have no ambition to seek going outside. Like the men who jumped off buildings during the great depression when they found out they were poor. All they lost was their fortune but the idea of that lifestyle change was depressing enough to kill themselves. So imagine a teenager ready to enter the work force who already maybe from a poor family has to look forward to 40 hours a week working at McDonald's. To someone from Kenya that's their fantasy since they'll be able to live comfortable compared to what they've had, but to someone coming from 1st world country this prospect is depressing.

    I just found out my friend was molested when he was young because he came from a poor family and he went along with it cause this man bought him goodies that he couldn't get otherwise. Today he's an alcoholic who goes to AA meetings and he's suicidal, all from that past event in his life. His family wasn't poor as in Uganda poor, but little kids do get jealous and poke fun at you for not having certain clothing and things. Poverty is relative.
    Last edited by Vash The Stampede; 2019-04-11 at 04:44 AM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    In Buddhism, for instance, there are times you could do it for the right reasons....
    Pretty sure apart from those examples of martyrdom that suicide is very much a no-go for Buddhists... Saying "there are times" isn't strictly speaking false, but it's almost akin to saying "Crucifiction is seen positively by Christianity". . .

    Dunno if any Buddhists wanna chip in; but after talking about it with locals I was left with the very clear impression that suicide is about as "sinful" as it is possible to be in Buddhism...
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    Trebuchets new meta.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Russia was atheist for a long time. Putin is using the church for his own ends, much like the religious right uses the church for their own political ends.

    When it becomes less of a creed, and people there actually take it on in a sincere manner the suicide rate may change.
    Are the people of Guyana and Lituania also not believing enough too?

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    The average family income has stagnated for decades in sharp contrast to the general economy and the income of those at the top while debt has skyrocketed.

    Maybe you should google up a graph to show you how wrong you are. I would rather be poor in today's times than poor 30 years ago.



    Have you ever heard of the working poor?
    Heard of them? I was one of them. Never felt the need to off myself because mom and dad was struggling.

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