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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    SNIP
    Sigh... You seem to have your own vision of the everything so continuation of arguing here is probably pointless...
    ... especially with person who has +200 posts within 1 month of creating new account.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Ok, i'll explain, negative space refers to all space around an object. If lets say you have a chair, you could instead of drawing the chair instead draw everything else, you can see where the chair is supposed to be, but you don't know if it's made of plastic, wood, metal, if its red, green, if its made up of gummi bears..



    The picture of the "black hole" is not a real picture, also it only shows the negative space outside the object, the event horizon. The only interesting thing for black holes is data (confirming theories about black hole), not the image since there's no light it cannot be seen. This is not how we got proof of a black hole, that was confirmed by its effect on its surrounding space years ago..

    It's like with planets in other solar systems, we can't see them, but we have proof because of when they pass in front of their star, how they effect each other etc.
    Now, if we have for 3 whole days media hyping up a big "reveal" n then space nerds reveal "photo of a planet from a different solar system" buuuut...they only show negative space, not the planet itself, I would be very veryyy underwhelmed n I'm sure nerds will say "we just don't get the importance" but to me the data is important, whether its a gas or rock planet, an image is pointless if it doesn't depict a single thing of said object.

    Wow, cool planet!!!!!!11111oneone...


    So...for the donut around the event horizon, it's the suck zone n looks like a vortex, wow who would have thought!! It's not like anybody thought it would look like something else!... This is as interesting as when scientists said, "we now have proof that tobacco is harmful" a few years ago and everyone else went "no shit, sherlock!"
    I'm not sure your drawing lexicon is very relevant for black holes. You can't see the singularity, or anything beyond the event horizon, because their intrinsic property is that they don't let photons escape their gravitationnal pull. That doesn't mean there is nothing to see as a huge black spot in an otherwise starry galaxy, warping the light from the stars around it must be quite a haunting sight, not to mention the extremely bright accretion disk of matter revolving around it at absurd speeds.

    Now, the current image is very low res for obvious reasons but that does not mean there is nothing worth seeing about black holes.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    We can't what? I said we can't technically see the black hole.
    So exactly what can't we?
    You said we can "definitely see the event horizon". We don't. We see the accretion disc that is only visible at ~2.5x the Schwarzschildradius (~event horizon). As explained in the video.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    You said we can "definitely see the event horizon". We don't. We see the accretion disc that is only visible at ~2.5x the Schwarzschildradius (~event horizon). As explained in the video.
    In layman's terms, it is defined as the shell of "points of no return", i.e., the boundary at which the gravitational pull of a massive object becomes so great as to make escape impossible

    Maybe I misinterpret this wrong but to me that means if you cross the event horizon you can't escape. However that means that you can ride just outside which we will see, which would still be the event horizon to me. I will watch the video later, but if event horizon is only after you crosses point of no return then it's exactly the same as being the black hole. Figured event horizon is the border between space and the black hole in question.

    Seems like an aruument of semantics. So if we point at the border and say this is the event horizon we can't see that border? Would be hard to point it out. As I said I watch it when I get home.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    That is an actual term, sorry your precious photo is not interesting to be called anything else

    Let us know when you can show the event horizon, until then ./yawn
    The edge of the accretion disc is the event horizon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Got to earn his turnips.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The edge of the accretion disc is the event horizon.
    True, but that's not identical to saying that we can actually see that edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    In layman's terms, it is defined as the shell of "points of no return", i.e., the boundary at which the gravitational pull of a massive object becomes so great as to make escape impossible

    Maybe I misinterpret this wrong but to me that means if you cross the event horizon you can't escape. However that means that you can ride just outside which we will see, which would still be the event horizon to me. I will watch the video later, but if event horizon is only after you crosses point of no return then it's exactly the same as being the black hole. Figured event horizon is the border between space and the black hole in question.

    Seems like an aruument of semantics. So if we point at the border and say this is the event horizon we can't see that border? Would be hard to point it out. As I said I watch it when I get home.
    There is a difference between the point of no return and the point from which we can recieve radiation. The inside of the ring we're seeing is not identical to the event horizon - the actual horizon is a smaller sphere in the center of the region we see in black. The video really explains this better than I could ever do, especially with the nice visualization contraption he has made.

    But to be honest: Without that explanation, I would have expected the same as you. The problem with BHs almost always is that the properties that become apparent under such extreme gravitational conditions is completely unintuitive to us humans, who never ever come close to experienceing these things and thus have no concept or intuition about them.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    True, but that's not identical to saying that we can actually see that edge.


    There is a difference between the point of no return and the point from which we can recieve radiation. The inside of the ring we're seeing is not identical to the event horizon - the actual horizon is a smaller sphere in the center of the region we see in black. The video really explains this better than I could ever do, especially with the nice visualization contraption he has made.

    But to be honest: Without that explanation, I would have expected the same as you. The problem with BHs almost always is that the properties that become apparent under such extreme gravitational conditions is completely unintuitive to us humans, who never ever come close to experienceing these things and thus have no concept or intuition about them.
    So if I change we can see the edge of event horizon to we can see the edge of accretion disk it would be correct?
    If so I understand now.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    So if I change we can see the edge of event horizon to we can see the edge of accretion disk it would be correct?
    If so I understand now.
    Uuuuhhhm yesno? That wouldn't really be it either. Everything is warped and skewed in really strange ways. We, for example, are seeing the entire disc, front AND back side, but in a very convoluted way. Srsly, I can't really do better without a lot of text and/or props.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    Uuuuhhhm yesno? That wouldn't really be it either. Everything is warped and skewed in really strange ways. We, for example, are seeing the entire disc, front AND back side, but in a very convoluted way. Srsly, I can't really do better without a lot of text and/or props.
    Nah, I know the closer you get to it, it warps and distorts. It just seems I had mixed up the term event horizon with the term accretion disk. Actually it's the first time I hear it.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    rats and traitors, the only thing lower is certain criminal behaviors. i'll never be a rat.

    and yes, it is momentous to finally have visible proof of it. i just wish we could actually do something about it, go to it and come back. touch it. it's probably a substance we don't know anything about, harder than any other know substance. i'd bet there's nothing in the universe that could break it.
    Are you talking about a black hole here? Solid object? Isn't that just light being pulled inside?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    True, but that's not identical to saying that we can actually see that edge.


    There is a difference between the point of no return and the point from which we can recieve radiation. The inside of the ring we're seeing is not identical to the event horizon - the actual horizon is a smaller sphere in the center of the region we see in black. The video really explains this better than I could ever do, especially with the nice visualization contraption he has made.

    But to be honest: Without that explanation, I would have expected the same as you. The problem with BHs almost always is that the properties that become apparent under such extreme gravitational conditions is completely unintuitive to us humans, who never ever come close to experienceing these things and thus have no concept or intuition about them.
    In one sense you can as it’s the last bit of light you can see outlining the negative space. I’m not saying that’s actually visible in this hazy image though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    rats and traitors, the only thing lower is certain criminal behaviors. i'll never be a rat.

    and yes, it is momentous to finally have visible proof of it. i just wish we could actually do something about it, go to it and come back. touch it. it's probably a substance we don't know anything about, harder than any other know substance. i'd bet there's nothing in the universe that could break it.
    It would be interesting if any matter it absorbed was being combined into a super element, but I’m pretty sure the focrce detroys the atomic structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Got to earn his turnips.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Soeroah View Post
    I'm rather impressed how detailed it is. I was expecting a fuzzy black and white image you might need to squint at to see a hole.
    This is not an actual picture of it. This is reconstruction of data that they got using interferometry and picturing the data. "Picture" is a mental shortcut in this case. Getting an actual picture like you mean it is impossible with current technology
    Last edited by Einsz; 2019-04-12 at 02:22 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    In one sense you can as it’s the last bit of light you can see outlining the negative space. I’m not saying that’s actually visible in this hazy image though.
    That is true. I was only considering the image at hand, but in theory there should be a tiny strip around the actual horizon.

  14. #114
    This was so awesome to see. Also great to see what the internet is doing with it.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    You cannot go blame the media for this.

    Don't go make a heads up! to the media. U have scientists making anouncement about picture of a black hole, tell them it will be shown on wednesday...

    So what becomes the subject matter (i trust u don't need to google this term)?

    The black hole.

    What is shown?

    Everything but the black hole...

    Next time u decide to make an anouncement in advance, it better live up to its description n hype...

    Like when they landed a probe on an asteroid.

    We have known about black holes for years this doesn't deserve nowhere near the media attention it got.
    So are you being obnoxious on purpose or were you born this way?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Gael1 View Post
    I'm not sure your drawing lexicon is very relevant for black holes. You can't see the singularity, or anything beyond the event horizon, because their intrinsic property is that they don't let photons escape their gravitationnal pull. That doesn't mean there is nothing to see as a huge black spot in an otherwise starry galaxy, warping the light from the stars around it must be quite a haunting sight, not to mention the extremely bright accretion disk of matter revolving around it at absurd speeds.

    Now, the current image is very low res for obvious reasons but that does not mean there is nothing worth seeing about black holes.
    I know all of that but scientists should down their hype anouncements. Sure it would get less attention but science shouldn't indulge in this kind of tacky behavior..u got every media in the world counting down the days of the reveal. Some might have expected a lot but i knew we could never see the iris..so what could it be? A lot of pessimism that we with our primitive tech could find anything interesting. I didn't like the idea of any picture, i wanted only data, information...anything about the great mystery, but noooo..instead get picture of the surroundings with lower resolution than minecraft..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzek View Post
    This was so awesome to see. Also great to see what the internet is doing with it.
    I bet there's a picture of a giant space squid being sucked into the vortex trying to pull in the millenium falcon.
    If not, go create it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    So are you being obnoxious on purpose or were you born this way?
    No, I wouldn't dream of taking on your job. Have u ever made a post of any value?

    All you. ever. do. is make replies how u don't like this, don't like that, don't like that poster, don't like that country. etc.
    Never make any arguments. Plenty of people dislike all kinds of things, but at least they have something to say

    I find Hubcap's posts n threads more useful than anything you have ever done here...you...are just around making...replies..
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2019-04-12 at 03:11 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    I know all of that but scientists should down their hype anouncements. Sure it would get less attention but science shouldn't indulge in this kind of tacky behavior..u got every media in the world counting down the days of the reveal. Some might have expected a lot but i knew we could never see the iris..so what could it be? A lot of pessimism that we with our primitive tech could find anything interesting. I didn't like the idea of any picture, i wanted only data, information...anything about the great mystery, but noooo..instead get picture of the surroundings with lower resolution than minecraft..

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    I bet there's a picture of a giant space squid being sucked into the vortex trying to pull in the millenium falcon.
    If not, go create it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, I wouldn't dream of taking on your job. Have u ever made a post of any value?
    I'm sure there are couple.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustedsaint View Post
    Neat thou I wonder why they took 2 years to release this image if they took the picture back in 2017,
    I can see them taking afew months to double check the data
    They had to process data from a ridiculous amount of images, to the point that it took five petabytes of storage. It's going to take two years to get through all of that and compile it into something that makes sense!

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    That is true. I was only considering the image at hand, but in theory there should be a tiny strip around the actual horizon.
    There would have to be by definition. The horizon is the point at which light no longer escapes. Therefor just before it you're going to have that final interior strip of light that outlines the horizon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Got to earn his turnips.

  20. #120
    This artist, with no data whatsoever, made this picture, posted before the "big reveal"

    oh look, its a black hole with a vortex... what a lucky guess..
    https://www.deviantart.com/shootings...veal-793194366

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