Mythic > Raid

[RoKPaNda]

So you're mad because very talented people that are able to 4m a +10 are selling carries and someone gets 1-2 pieces of gear and a piece of Azerite while you're doing pug difficulty raiding?

M+ was designed as an alternative to raiding btw.

[Ange]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls.

People doing only the minimal weekly-10 wont be that high in ilvl either.

The average skillcap for doing 10-15+ keys is higher as what you need in HC raiding. You can pretty easy clear a HC raid with m+ players, but it is very hard to do m+ with the average HC raider. Raid roles are just more simpler and you have so many redundacy for your role, it doesnt even matter if you fail at playing the game mechanicaly and encounter wise, there are allways backups there.

Players with 1 maincharacter spamming m+ for gear, will get a solid ilvl over time. You will even surpass some mythic-raiders, since they HAVE TO play multiple chars (4-6), so the played time has to be split.

This was not the case in the past, since M+/Dungeon gearing had a pretty hard progression wall without WF/TF and raiding was just above. So the average raiding (now boost buying) player was above everyone else.

If you were a HC raider before, you would allready min-max M+ gearprogression into your pve time and benefit a lot from the parallel gearprogression.
If you were just tolerated in your family and friends HC raid as a free boost, well I have really bad news for you.

[justandulas]

So you're mad because very talented people that are able to 4m a +10 are selling carries and someone gets 1-2 pieces of gear and a piece of Azerite while you're doing pug difficulty raiding?

M+ was designed as an alternative to raiding btw.

people always take the path of least resistance. if you can get 4 friends together and chain run M+ and get better gear than heroic raiding or even mythic raiding on 1/10th the time commitment... who the hell is gonna commit to mythic raiding other than the most hardcore of hardcore's going for world first?

M+ is a great addition, but the pendulum swung way too far in BFA and has essentially gutted heroic/mythic raiding beyond salvaging.

[Zenfoldor]

Yeah, I miss raiding. I wish they would re-add set bonuses for raids. Even make them only work in raids, that's fine, but it gave me a reason to raid. I always said if they removed raiding I would quit, but I guess making it irrelevant is the same thing. Mythic+ just isn't very fun to me. I don't like the timed aspect or the random difficulty modifiers. I don't like generic loot at all though. I'd like to see maybe separate set bonuses for both raiding and mythic+ seasons.

[Ange]

M+ is a great addition, but the pendulum swung way too far in BFA and has essentially gutted heroic/mythic raiding beyond salvaging.

If raiding was the most fun thing you can do with friends, people would do it.

LEGION's raiding community was hold together with masterloot exploitation and tier-set-bonuses. BfA only had to remove those 2 last chains from raiding to let players do in pve what they really like, playing with friends.

After LEGION's M+ participation explosion, I would have hoped for some content/lore split between raids and dungeons, since its pretty clear that raiding in WoW is not the most fun thing you can do.

[Jazzhands]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls. And if so, why? Is it not far more challenging putting a 25 man raid together aned keep it together and managing a guild than finding 4 players?

On my server, chat is filled with Mythic + boost ..

So, Blizz message to player base it Pay 2 Win? Buy Tokens and give gold to Mythic + boosters gets you gear better than Heroic Raiders?? WTF

You really think people who are clearing M+20-25 don't deserve better gear than heroic raiders? You do know that "Heroic" is actually "Normal" mode, right? Where as people clearing that high are typically mythic level raiders.

Also, if you raid heroic, your ilvl should be around 410 by now. I'm 395, and I don't even raid Normal. Most people clearing M+20-25, which is significantly more difficult than Heroic, are only 5-7 ilvls higher. Heroic also doesn't require a guild, tons of people pug it every week. Clearing M+ 20-25 consistently requires a lot more dedication than opening group finder.

Your pay 2 win argument is also a massive stretch. Anyone who cares about this game enough to drop 40$+ on a single M+ carry is likely capable of just running it themselves. And even so, buying M+ runs isn't pay 2 win, you clearly don't know what an actual p2w game is. Check out some Korean mmos sometime.

[Qnubi]

Yeah, I miss raiding. I wish they would re-add set bonuses for raids. Even make them only work in raids, that's fine, but it gave me a reason to raid. I always said if they removed raiding I would quit, but I guess making it irrelevant is the same thing. Mythic+ just isn't very fun to me. I don't like the timed aspect or the random difficulty modifiers. I don't like generic loot at all though. I'd like to see maybe separate set bonuses for both raiding and mythic+ seasons.

I have always preached that they need to make gear that is good for the content you do. Yes, that includes WQ gear as well as PvP. WQ gear should increase the damage you do in outdoor content and if you are full "WQ" equipped you deal more damage than a Mythic raider that doesn't have WQ gear. M+ gear is best for M+ etc. That way nobody feels forced to do content to maximize their output in a activity. You do the content you like and your character gets better in doing it, easy progression.

[justandulas]

If raiding was the most fun thing you can do with friends, people would do it.

LEGION's raiding community was hold together with masterloot exploitation and tier-set-bonuses. BfA only had to remove those 2 last chains from raiding to let players do in pve what they really like, playing with friends.

After LEGION's M+ participation explosion, I would have hoped for some content/lore split between raids and dungeons, since its pretty clear that raiding in WoW is not the most fun thing you can do.

fun is subjective. I have more fun raiding than i do 5 man content. By a significant margin. So did a lot of the original player base. The more the merrier.

tier set bonuses are sorely missing, and masterloot was NEVER a problem. not for a second.

The problem is that people in life and in gaming, always take the path of least resistance.

it doesn't matter if you prefer mythic raiding if 99% of the wow population looks at the time commitment needed, and then looks at M+ and how you can faceroll your way to mythic raid gear and it's crystal clear why raiding has died in BFA, it's because of poor loot structures.

They could solve this by putting legendary's ONLY off mythic bosses, new spells that ONLY drop off mythic bosses, new tiers that only dropped in heroic/mythic, etc. Maybe raid azerite gear has 8 rings instead of 4-5. INCENTIVE

They've removed the incentive and made it one size fits all, so of course the players take the easy road. That doesn't mean it's good game design

EDIT: You can actually say with a straight face that Destiny 2 has much better raid incentives, rewards, gear than WoW does. Destiny 2 raids offer better incentive than WoW. Let that sink in.

[Wild]

Like you said: mythic+>raid ... in every way!

[Molis]

For me Mythic+ is funner, easier to organize, and a better option than raiding.

Why would Blizzard kill something for just you OP?

[Tumile]

You got it backwards - high end PvP and PvE are the extreme minority of players. Making the game (and gear) a lot more accessible to the majority of players is what keeps them and attracts new ones (by showing them its easy to keep up even if you arent the top 1% of players).

Its not 2004 anymore, the new systems need to address the "new kids" not old farts.

except that obviously has no continuety to it and people are quitting for that exact reason?

[zlygork]

So really your argument is less that they should be rewarding raiders better, but that they should be rewarding raid leaders better. I can guarantee you the average raider has the same responsibilities as the average mythic+ runner does, the only difference is the raid leader who puts things together. I do wish people would stop confusing the two.

This.
Also, it's easier (paritcularly as dps) to fuck up in your raid and not have to suffer serious consequences. High M+ are intense and the smallest mistake will result in an automatic wipe, I don't think it's fair to act as if raids are always harder content than M+ (or vice versa)

[Ange]

except that obviously has no continuety to it and people are quitting for that exact reason?

People are quitting for all reasons all the time. Thats the normal in any MMO.
People quit beceause there is not enough solo content.
People quit beceause there is not enough group content.
People quit all the time, funny enough often times for the opposite reasons.

[Aeula]

As someone who prefers the classic gearing system of raids>dungeons, it is kinda disheartening to see Mythic+ers getting gear better or equal to (But faster) than raid quality for much less effort.

[Soon-TM]

M+:

• Are spammable, aka no lockout.
• Are much easier to organize.
• Provide heroic level of gear, and thanks to WF/TF, can match mythic level.
• Provide the best trinkets, and have since Legion introduced M+.

By comparison, mythic raids are much harder to organize, have a weekly lockout, take much longer and... What do you have to show for it? Some silly Azerite traits (assuming that PL didn't screw your guild), maybe a title and a mount, which will add to the 4665422789 mounts you already have. At least, in Legion you still had tier sets, but no, tier sets are bad and Azerite is good

[cparle87]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls. And if so, why? Is it not far more challenging putting a 25 man raid together aned keep it together and managing a guild than finding 4 players?

On my server, chat is filled with Mythic + boost ..

So, Blizz message to player base it Pay 2 Win? Buy Tokens and give gold to Mythic + boosters gets you gear better than Heroic Raiders?? WTF

Heroic raid = old normal mode. Of course there's going to be several things you can do to get better than normal level gear.

[munkeyinorbit]

or get off the forums, stop complaining and play the game.

Why are the casuals so vitriolic today? OP has a point. I am not begrudging m+ players their loot. I am personally not motivated enough to do more than complete a +4.
BUT why does something that is spammable have to be the best source of loot in the game? Why can't there be some sort of lock out system? 1 piece of loot a week. I know, I know. REAL players login once per week to collect their chest and then do their one dungeon per week but you all weren't doing that at the beginning of the season. I still support M+ getting the whole item level and TF. It is just the frequency in which they get the gear.

Oh also. There should not be any dungeon loot and raid loot. It should be all the same loot so there isn't any discrepancy between the two modes.

[Has lost its way]

I think the weekly chest should be removed from mythic+ It encourages the worst cases of behavior within the community and overly inflates the ilv reward attached to the activity.

There is to much of a emphasis of cap it and be done and I think it contributes to a lot of the issues the system has.

[SilenceRedo]

Because heroic raid is super easy. The only raid that matters is mythic.

[Aphrel]

Because you can only do the raid once a week and most of the time the game gives you no item at all. If you are lucky enough to get something it will most likely be a shitty 400ilvl item. On top of that crazy luck, you need even more insane luck to get it to titanforge to reach a respectable ilvl.

M+ are spammable, which means people can just dump time in them forever and eventually reach the point of crazy luck needed to tianforge something big. M+10 drop same base ilvl as heroic raid.

or you could do m+ once a week aswell and still end up with 10 ilvl higher gear than a person doing heroic raiding.