Mythic > Raid

[Louz]

majority ? definetly not.

but amount of constant spam in trade kind begs to ask question "if they wouldnt have buyers would they be spamming it like this ? "

Yeah, same as when you get an email from a nigerian prince, claiming he will give you a million dollars for whatever reason, you just need to pay $500 as a deposit for the bank.

Anyway, OP is making it sound like literally everyone is buy carries and somehow gets titanforged loots from each an every run.

Just the same old shitty story, but why not have another 30+ page thread about it, going through the same non arguments over and over, right?

[kappalol]

I can buy Mythic gear today from M+ .. It's being spammed on pretty much every active server.

Getting 415 from M+ is within the gold cost-reach of many .. And the lazy ones can just use a credit card for tokens!

Still. It doest kill a boss for you.

[Cempa]

Still. It doest kill a boss for you.

But the group I pay do .. That to me is pretty darn close to Pay2Win.

[kappalol]

But the group I pay do .. That to me is pretty darn close to Pay2Win.

Good luck with buying a boost. In this logic every game is P2W. Just pay someone to boost you. Boost would cost you something like 500+ euros. It's not pay to win technique.

[Loveliest]

I mean for heroic you need 10-30 people, don't need a stable roster, don't need to gear up all that much. You do the raid, what, 1-3 days a week (I don't think there's guilds who do heroic only and raid more than 3 days?). Of course, this sort of assumes you actually have a guild with a dedicated leader - if you don't I don't know how easy it is.
For M+, you can't gear out of weekly chest only. So you kinda have to run a lot of them - which means you either have a dedicated group or you pug a lot. Now this is debatable... but a heroic only guild will likely take players ranging from good to bad and not nitpick as much. For M+ you need people who are decent and you also need to have a high tolerance of repeating content (ex: doing the same dungeon over and over and over is way more boring than do the raid once a week).
Of course, if you're real comfortable pugging, doing M+ is probably a lot easier than doing raids. I'm also talking from the perspective of a person who works a lot and can't spare all that much - I do M+, but only a few every week because I want to do so many things in my spare time.

So overall, it's subjective I guess. Depends on the time you can spare, how thick your skin is, how good you actually are, your tolerance to grind and so on.

[Raiz]

If raiding was the most fun thing you can do with friends, people would do it.

LEGION's raiding community was hold together with masterloot exploitation and tier-set-bonuses. BfA only had to remove those 2 last chains from raiding to let players do in pve what they really like, playing with friends.

I really don't know about master loot since, really, it didn't bug me. But I'd dare to say, instead of masterloot, it was the legendaries items that kept us playing for a long time, at least for me.

Even though we pested about the RNG and the fact that the legendaries were kind of mandatory to bring a few more % of our DPS / Healing / Tanking's output, I feel like this game was one of the best for casuals players that could play with the most hardcore ones.

For me, I really liked the fact that Legendaries and Tier Sets could change your gameplay. What I didn't like was the RNG. The azerite pieces just doesn't make a significant difference for a lot of classes, and more importantly, they don't really change your gameplay (obviously with a few exception of some of the traits)

It was also the only expansion where I dared to play the Raids more often. Otherwise, I'd have unsubbed much like all the others expansion (never played more than 2-3 months for each ones, except Legion where I played more than 1 year).

[Cempa]

Good luck with buying a boost. In this logic every game is P2W. Just pay someone to boost you. Boost would cost you something like 500+ euros. It's not pay to win technique.

500+ Would be to get a mythic raid .. We talking Mythic + 5 man which you can spam .. For a cost within reach of many -hence the constant spam in trade channel offering the service- you get a boost.

It may take you weeks or months to gear up via 25 man .. Or pay about the same and spam 5 man mythic Higher ilvl and costs less due to you only paying 4 people instead of 24!

[Yriel]

M+ happens because raids are not accessible enough.

Most people I know prefer raids with their slow learning style to m+ with its “Go go go can’t make mistakes and must use an add on that tells you trash to kill” style.

But raids are closed to anyone not in a regular raid group which demands that you set aside the same 6-9 hours every week. The playerbase is OLD. We need flexibility.

Excellent point. Completely agree, i actually wonder if Blizzard is aware of this.

[ssviolett]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls. And if so, why? Is it not far more challenging putting a 25 man raid together aned keep it together and managing a guild than finding 4 players?

On my server, chat is filled with Mythic + boost ..

So, Blizz message to player base it Pay 2 Win? Buy Tokens and give gold to Mythic + boosters gets you gear better than Heroic Raiders?? WTF

wr0ng.

High M+ like +15 or 20 require insane amount of cooperation and dedication. Imagine a boss that lasts not just 3-5 mins but 40 mins - thats it. Timer is very tight, I find some +15 instances even more difficult that Mythic raid bosses. Even in Mythic raid you can slack, make mistakes, die and still you defeat the boss - mostly because others perform better. In M+ everyone should perform at 100% if you want to close not just +2-3 but really high keys.

As for buying stuff with gold - whats the problem? If you can buy items in M+ you can as well buy items from Heroic or Mythic raids of the same ilvl

[Aphrel]

Well I mean, people are free to prevent themselves from doing the game's content, they are just gonna pay for it. Play the game or don't play it, but don't pretend you're actually playing the game if you barely do half of its content.

The point is, the weekly rewards from the mythic+ cache is disproportionally rewarding compared to raiding, given how easy it is to reach the highest teir of weekly rewards.

[Kaver]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls. And if so, why? Is it not far more challenging putting a 25 man raid together aned keep it together and managing a guild than finding 4 players?

On my server, chat is filled with Mythic + boost ..

So, Blizz message to player base it Pay 2 Win? Buy Tokens and give gold to Mythic + boosters gets you gear better than Heroic Raiders?? WTF

“Heroic Raiders” xD

You make it sound like it’s impressive to complete a heroic raid. My guild clears heroic BOD in 1 hour. It’s so easy and boring. No great loot is deserved for that.

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But the group I pay do .. That to me is pretty darn close to Pay2Win.

What do you win though?

[Captain Proton]

The point is, the weekly rewards from the mythic+ cache is disproportionally rewarding compared to raiding, given how easy it is to reach the highest teir of weekly rewards.

Mythic cache is 1 item per week from a long list of items. It would take, what, 15 weeks depending on your class to fully gear up? That's not including duplicates items or items in the same slot. I had a month of nothing but cloaks in my cache. I've also gotten the same shitty AD agi trinket 3 times.

- - - Updated - - -

wr0ng.

High M+ like +15 or 20 require insane amount of cooperation and dedication. Imagine a boss that lasts not just 3-5 mins but 40 mins - thats it. Timer is very tight, I find some +15 instances even more difficult that Mythic raid bosses. Even in Mythic raid you can slack, make mistakes, die and still you defeat the boss - mostly because others perform better. In M+ everyone should perform at 100% if you want to close not just +2-3 but really high keys.

While I mostly agree with you, this is a really bad point. It doesnt matter if it's a +15 or +20. You're inflating the difficulty of gearing through m+ since those keys give the same gear as a +10. Doubly so because you don't need to even complete it in time.

That's not to say the other side hasnt inflated the difficulty either. Heroic BOD is pretty damn easy, with only a couple of bosses that MAY be the same difficulty as a +10. That and you don't need 25 people, you only need 10. 10 isnt that far from 5.

[Demeia]

For me Mythic+ is funner, easier to organize, and a better option than raiding.

Why would Blizzard kill something for just you OP?

Well, a good reason is that there are 2 tanks, 4 healers in a 20m and 14 dps: so 70% of a raid is dps. Only 60% in a 5m is dps. But it's worse, because there's never been enough tanks or healers in the game, which means out of a raid, you probably end up with 2 5m groups and the other five people just quit the game.

They are basically repeating the same old design disaster of Cataclysm: going from 25m to 10m and in the process basically dropping something like fifteen players.

They are encouraging their raiders to quit the game. It's not a great design strategy.

[Aphrel]

Mythic cache is 1 item per week from a long list of items. It would take, what, 15 weeks depending on your class to fully gear up? That's not including duplicates items or items in the same slot. I had a month of nothing but cloaks in my cache. I've also gotten the same shitty AD agi trinket 3 times.

I play 4 alts, as does many in my guild. We run max 1 hc alt raid a week because its simply not worth the effort to run more compared to the lazy, slow but so much more rewarding weekly mythic cache. Heroic raiding is also considerably harder than m+10. So more effort for less reward.
The insane reward you get from 1 mythic run is so large that it actively discourages you from playing more. Similar to how the ridiculously rewarding weekly Q for islands makes you feel like your wasting your time if you do more islands than the weekly requires.

[Captain Proton]

I play 4 alts, as does many in my guild. We run max 1 hc alt raid a week because its simply not worth the effort to run more compared to the lazy, slow but so much more rewarding weekly mythic cache. Heroic raiding is also considerably harder than m+10. So more effort for less reward.
The insane reward you get from 1 mythic run is so large that it actively discourages you from playing more. Similar to how the ridiculously rewarding weekly Q for islands makes you feel like your wasting your time if you do more islands than the weekly requires.

Heroic raiding really isn't considerably harder than m+10. It's easily puggable. Only Jaina, maybe Mekkatorque for a guild with people who are too shy to use their mics, are harder. Majority of the bosses are just as easy as a +10.

This also makes little sense. Being able to grind for 400 items on a +10 should make you play more, not less. You also ignored the time it takes to gear completely solely from cache. If it takes you 3 months, minimum, to gear up from getting one piece a week from your chest, that's not bad. Serious raiders should be much higher than that with WF/TF and mythic raid gear. If you're not a serious raider, this should be a good thing. It's also a good for altoholics. Easier access to content.

[Garymorilix]

Here's a question tho: If you only farm 10+ all day everyday for gear, you're consistent at beating the timer and you don't raid: what do you need the gear for?

Mythic raiders farm gear to gain extra power to overcome certain bosses in the raid.
You farm gear to... flex your ilvl?

Anyone can gear up any character (or number of characters) from weekly caches and one to three 10+ runs a week over half a year. But what for? If you don't use the gear for anything then it's worthless.

This is the problem with people, this is why there are so many boosts advertised. People think they get some kind of prestige level for having x ilvl when in reality they use that for nothing. Anyone who is aiming to push keys won't invite you without skill, and you'll get kicked from any pug raid pulling low af dps/hps whatever, nobody cares what your ilvl is at that point.

[Kokolums]

I don't like BFA 5mans. I think part of it is that the themes don't feel like part of the WoW universe. The original WoW classes were humans, gnomes, dwarves, night elves, orcs, trolls, tauren, and undead. Only THREE of those really get represented in the BFA 5 mans in humans, trolls and gnomes (and humans are probably the most boring one at this point). It feels like when it comes to 5 mans, over half the lore is sitting it out.

The other part is I don't care about the lore behind them at all. Has anyone ever really said "OMG I am fighting Gorak Tul!!!!" or "OMG I am fighting Harlan Sweete!!!" Nope. These are forgettable bland characters.

[Berndorf]

Here's a question tho: If you only farm 10+ all day everyday for gear, you're consistent at beating the timer and you don't raid: what do you need the gear for?

Mythic raiders farm gear to gain extra power to overcome certain bosses in the raid.
You farm gear to... flex your ilvl?

Anyone can gear up any character (or number of characters) from weekly caches and one to three 10+ runs a week over half a year. But what for? If you don't use the gear for anything then it's worthless.

This is the problem with people, this is why there are so many boosts advertised. People think they get some kind of prestige level for having x ilvl when in reality they use that for nothing. Anyone who is aiming to push keys won't invite you without skill, and you'll get kicked from any pug raid pulling low af dps/hps whatever, nobody cares what your ilvl is at that point.

Maybe some people get the same sense of accomplishment out of pushing keys that you do out of raiding. Is that idea really too hard to be fathomed as a possibility in a video game?

[anon5123]

Welcome to World of Diablocraft, where any old keyboard turner can get massively powerful gear solely through the power of RNG.

[Eapoe]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls. And if so, why? Is it not far more challenging putting a 25 man raid together aned keep it together and managing a guild than finding 4 players?

On my server, chat is filled with Mythic + boost ..

So, Blizz message to player base it Pay 2 Win? Buy Tokens and give gold to Mythic + boosters gets you gear better than Heroic Raiders?? WTF

By this weird leap in logic, it has been pay 2 win ever since the first gold farmers showed up and people purchased dungeon/raid runs.