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  1. #21
    Bloodsail Admiral Redroniksre's Avatar
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    My personal opinion at least, is that rewards are almost always mandatory. They have cool events in right now that don't reward anything useful, and i doubt there are many that actually do them. I personally feel that things have become too structured, too "abiding" to rules. They really have no freedom to experiment without people losing their shit because they feel "forced" to do the content. It is almost impossible to have a free flowing living world in that sort of a system.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    So what, EXACTLY, is your solution? What I'm seeing here is heavy on the tears and gnashing of teeth, and really light on any solution.
    Strange argument to think a customer should find the ideas/solutions to bring Wow out from the pit the devs created. Activision have plenty of employees paid to find this out.

  3. #23
    Keyboard Turner Mmzy's Avatar
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    I miss gear that awarded me for being skilled or dedicated. Now its just another epic but a temp.( 1 week) placeholder for another piece. Too many sources to get (free) gear You cant tell anymore if someone is good in this game yes or not. A dude that just do lfr and get lucky with titanforging and shit has a better ilvl than i do while i do more high rated stuff. Yea you could buy gear in the past but you needed loads of gold and not everyone had that;p
    Last edited by Mmzy; 2019-04-11 at 01:19 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    So what, EXACTLY, is your solution? What I'm seeing here is heavy on the tears and gnashing of teeth, and really light on any solution.
    Strange argument to think a random customer should find the ideas/solutions to bring Wow out from the pit the devs created. Activision have plenty of dedicated employees paid to find this out.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmzy View Post
    I miss gear that awarded me for being skilled or dedicated. Now its just another epic but a temp.( 1 week) placeholder for another piece. Too many sources to get (free) gear You cant tell anymore if someone is good in this game yes or not. A dude that just do lfr and get lucky with titanforging and shit has a better ilvl than i do while i do more high rated stuff. Yea you could buy gear in the past but you needed loads of gold and not everyone had that;p
    Yes you cannot judge if someone is good by looking at his gear, but there are achievments where you can tell if someone is good, e.g. AotC and CE and the seasonal achievments for all m+10 or m+15 in time.

  6. #26
    But people wouldn't do battlegrounds or dungeons in vanilla either if it gave no rewards. Tarren mill and crossroad raids stopped, before flying, because it was pointless to do.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monolithi View Post
    Who would do those 4 WQs if there is no chance for TF? I certainly would not...
    So no reason to login... go figure how decision about sub ends...
    People would do them to gear up their alts.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    When Blizzard looks at a piece of this game they need to go back to basics.

    They need to, while making content, remove any rewards from doing them. They need to then make them so fun that people do it, even if it gives no rewards.

    Then after you are at that point, you can start adding rewards.

    Today, it seems to me that the rewards are what is supposed to make content "fun"? Look at the insane ilvl gained from the weekly Warfront quest. Look at the insane amout of AP from the weekly Island Expedition cap. Look at the daily world quest cache. Look at the Weekly M+ cache. Most people do the minimal amount of effort on these parts of the game, just to get the reward.

    Would people still queue for Warfronts if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do Island Expeditions if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do world quests if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do LFR if it gave no rewards?
    Would people quest if it gave no rewards?
    I think the answer is fairly strongly no.
    Exactly why the answer is no could differ from person to person. To me, I would not do any of those 5 things because they are brainless and unchallenging.

    Here are some aspects of the game people WOULD do even if they gave no rewards:
    Arenas - People that are already "rank 1" still queue because they love playing it.
    Heroic/Mytic Raids - Guilds would still do raids where they got 0 loot, the reason they raid is primarily because it is fun to beat the bosses.
    Random battlegrounds - Today you barely get any rewards for doing them, but they still are quite popular.
    World PvP - Yes we get the bonus today, but World PvP was done with no reward since Vanilla.

    Maybe, once you start looking at your system from this perspective, you could improve the game next expansion. Maybe then you would not add systems like Expedition Island and Warfront, where people never in a million years would enjoy them if they gave no rewards.
    Here are some aspects of the game people WOULD do even if they gave no rewards:
    Arenas - People that are already "rank 1" still queue because they love playing it. They do it because there's gains to get equipment and such as well.

    Heroic/Mytic Raids - Guilds would still do raids where they got 0 loot, the reason they raid is primarily because it is fun to beat the bosses. Doubt people would do the raid if there's no gain for it.

    Random battlegrounds - Today you barely get any rewards for doing them, but they still are quite popular. But you ARE getting rewards for doing them. And points for more rewards, not to much rewards for actually being there.

    World PvP - Yes we get the bonus today, but World PvP was done with no reward since Vanilla. But you can't operate a whole MMO on the premise that World PvP structure is okay.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  9. #29
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    The problem is that this is how Blizzard thinks they are making the game. At least that's what Ion says, WF/TF is 'fun' and 'exciting' to players even though there a voal players that hate it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibbler View Post
    I think a big part of these activities not being fun is the classes. They've been so homogenized that nearly all of them are quite boring to play now. The class you play is how you interact with the content.
    It isn't even that they are not fun to play, it is that there is no real defining choices that change your rotations or priorities on top of no character progression at all. Azerite gear is not character progression because when you upgrade past a certain point you have to work to get the same shit back again and that is in no way fun.
    “If you don't believe me that is too damn bad!”

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Feali View Post
    People would do them to gear up their alts.
    Sure, for those who play alts.

  12. #32
    I'll be fair and say that fun is subjective. however, when a majority of your former player base keep leaving weeks into a patch or even an expansion, you have to realize that something is very wrong.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibbler View Post
    I think a big part of these activities not being fun is the classes. They've been so homogenized that nearly all of them are quite boring to play now. The class you play is how you interact with the content.
    1000 times this. The aggressive pruning of abilities in the last two expansions has dramatically reduced my enjoyment of the game, and I'm certain with the feel of many classes rotations becoming similar that I'm not alone in players who lost a uniqueness of a class/spec that was fundamental to their enjoyment.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    When Blizzard looks at a piece of this game they need to go back to basics.

    They need to, while making content, remove any rewards from doing them. They need to then make them so fun that people do it, even if it gives no rewards.

    Then after you are at that point, you can start adding rewards.

    Today, it seems to me that the rewards are what is supposed to make content "fun"? Look at the insane ilvl gained from the weekly Warfront quest. Look at the insane amout of AP from the weekly Island Expedition cap. Look at the daily world quest cache. Look at the Weekly M+ cache. Most people do the minimal amount of effort on these parts of the game, just to get the reward.

    Would people still queue for Warfronts if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do Island Expeditions if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do world quests if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do LFR if it gave no rewards?
    Would people quest if it gave no rewards?
    I think the answer is fairly strongly no.
    Exactly why the answer is no could differ from person to person. To me, I would not do any of those 5 things because they are brainless and unchallenging.

    Here are some aspects of the game people WOULD do even if they gave no rewards:
    Arenas - People that are already "rank 1" still queue because they love playing it.
    Heroic/Mytic Raids - Guilds would still do raids where they got 0 loot, the reason they raid is primarily because it is fun to beat the bosses.
    Random battlegrounds - Today you barely get any rewards for doing them, but they still are quite popular.
    World PvP - Yes we get the bonus today, but World PvP was done with no reward since Vanilla.

    Maybe, once you start looking at your system from this perspective, you could improve the game next expansion. Maybe then you would not add systems like Expedition Island and Warfront, where people never in a million years would enjoy them if they gave no rewards.
    The big problem with this is that the core gameplay loop of WoW un fundamentally boring as all fuck, objectively. We're talking about a tab targetting combat system that was considered outdated in 2003. So trying to make something fun even if there's no rewards attached to it is borderline impossible.

    Sure some people will bash me saying "ThAt'S sUbJeCtIvE nOt oBjEcTiVe" to which I say stfu, you even recognize it's bad gameplay or you have no clue or bad taste. Go play other games for a few days you'll realize how fucking far behind the gameplay of WoW really is.

    Notice when you do pick up quests you never want to fight any mob, if you're allowed to fly over shit and just grab things then run away it makes you feel special. That's because the combat system is such garbage you literally want to avoid it. If the game was fun at its core you would just keep fighintg shit for no reason.

    So for your dreams to happen the whole thing needs to be remade from scratch and that's not gonna happen.

    HOWEVER.

    It's possible to make rewards more meaningful and interesting and I believe this would be a very possible and very good work around to reach a high lvl of fun (for a MMO, becuase it's all about progress and getting stuff) similar to what you are asking. So may things more like they were in vanilla/TBC, less upgrades in general, you keep your loot for a longer amount of time but there's more to get in the long run (very long run) and make it more of a team effort. In recent xpacks we're all just wishing to get items for ourselves, even the forced personnal loot which is a retarded idea is promoting the idea of wanting everything for yourself.
    Back in Vanilla I remember being happy for guildies getting upgrade and realizing that our team gets stronger because we get items as a team, it didn't need to be given to me, sure that was even better but I could still be happy for others. That's just not how the game presents item progression today.

    While some content is more fun than others (raiding and arena is objectively more fun than WQs) I really don't believe people would still do them forever with no reward. I see people every week quitting or playing drastically less because they have little to no upgrades to get anymore in either raiding, arena or M+.
    And to be honest, that's perfectly normal, WoW is a game like any other, it's not that special, and just like any other games, people get bored and move on, or in the case of a game that gets new content every now and then like WoW, people just take breaks sometimes.

    Even if WoW became just as fun as the best version of WoW you can imagine it would still not reach the amount of players it once had at its peak. People move on that's just natural.

  15. #35
    That's why people will play Classic. Because of the immense depth of gameplay!

  16. #36
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jibbler View Post
    I think a big part of these activities not being fun is the classes. They've been so homogenized that nearly all of them are quite boring to play now. The class you play is how you interact with the content.
    That's why I stopped playing personally. The classes I played were boring as fuck, so everything else felt boring too

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    1000 times this. The aggressive pruning of abilities in the last two expansions has dramatically reduced my enjoyment of the game, and I'm certain with the feel of many classes rotations becoming similar that I'm not alone in players who lost a uniqueness of a class/spec that was fundamental to their enjoyment.
    I personally liked Legion. BFA just feels like watered down Legion though

  17. #37
    While I don’t like WoW is its current state, fun is subjective. What may be fun to you may not be fun to others. Telling bliz to go back to basics based on fun is like telling them to start over again or scrap. What they see as fun is what currently is, not what was. But eh idc I’m not playin wow anymore anyways.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Wow man. Your idea is so insanely the opposite of most of the people on these forums you're in a different galaxy. Most of the whine threads are complaining that the various tasks in the game aren't rewarding enough.

    Add to the fact that fun is subjective. The last thing any company should do to find out what their player base finds fun is look at anything on any forums.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You heard it here first, folks. If Eleccybubb doesn't like the game then it's totally obvious the devs don't care about the game anymore and just want to milk you, end of story, no nuance, nothing, and you're all idiots or white knights if you disagree.
    Since it is so boring they want the reward to increase to pay them for it. People wanting increased rewards means that they don't find the content enjoyable enough for what they get.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    When Blizzard looks at a piece of this game they need to go back to basics.

    They need to, while making content, remove any rewards from doing them. They need to then make them so fun that people do it, even if it gives no rewards.

    Then after you are at that point, you can start adding rewards.

    Today, it seems to me that the rewards are what is supposed to make content "fun"? Look at the insane ilvl gained from the weekly Warfront quest. Look at the insane amout of AP from the weekly Island Expedition cap. Look at the daily world quest cache. Look at the Weekly M+ cache. Most people do the minimal amount of effort on these parts of the game, just to get the reward.

    Would people still queue for Warfronts if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do Island Expeditions if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do world quests if it gave no rewards?
    Would people still do LFR if it gave no rewards?
    Would people quest if it gave no rewards?
    I think the answer is fairly strongly no.
    Exactly why the answer is no could differ from person to person. To me, I would not do any of those 5 things because they are brainless and unchallenging.

    Here are some aspects of the game people WOULD do even if they gave no rewards:
    Arenas - People that are already "rank 1" still queue because they love playing it.
    Heroic/Mytic Raids - Guilds would still do raids where they got 0 loot, the reason they raid is primarily because it is fun to beat the bosses.
    Random battlegrounds - Today you barely get any rewards for doing them, but they still are quite popular.
    World PvP - Yes we get the bonus today, but World PvP was done with no reward since Vanilla.

    Maybe, once you start looking at your system from this perspective, you could improve the game next expansion. Maybe then you would not add systems like Expedition Island and Warfront, where people never in a million years would enjoy them if they gave no rewards.
    Oh look, its an elitist asshat trying to trick people into thinking he doesnt want to destroy the game by making it only things that are pure garbage. For the record you ignorant prick, far more people would have problems with the things you claim are good (which are junk) than they would with the things you claim are junk (which are good)

    and you are beyond stupid if you think people would raid week in and week out for no reward

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MHMabrito View Post
    The main problem with posts like this, and your post - is that you're here to ask for FUN and REWARDING gameplay, but aren't able to actually put a finger on what is "fun". "Fun" is also very subjective, what is fun to you might not be fun to someone else - who do they side with? Whichever the majority side falls on. Which may not be your side. I raid hardcore in this game, I don't feel compelled to do any of the world content. When i'm not raiding i'm doing high m+'s qualifying for my region. Let's also not pretend that everything in this game hasn't been a long time gated style grind. Stretching all the way back to Vanilla, everything has been grindy. I'm not sure what world people have lived in when it comes to this game.

    The notion that people would do content without rewards is wrong. That's demonstrated multiple times in multiple different expansions. People play for progression and bettering their character.
    ^ this

    You can certainly have a game that offers no rewards and is still immensely fun, but WoW can’t be that type of game. Sure it’s all subjective, but WoW’s core is “repetitive tasks for progression”. That has been the same since vanilla; grinding levels, gear, gold, rep, or honor. Story and RP are the only aspects that fall outside of that core, but I’d wager most players don’t put all that much thought into either when they’re actually playing the game.

    Bottom line: no matter how well designed the class gameplay, the repetitive nature of the game requires rewards to keep players running the same content over and over and over again.

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