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  1. #81
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    promotes what i said

    Raids killing solo innocent players
    Don't really see what raids killing solo players have to do with WPVP rewards? O.o They are as far as possible from each other.

    Besides, people have to have something to do and adding quests somewhat creates that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    People feeling obliged to complete these quests for said rewards, then they'll flood various forums with "WoW feels like a second job and a chore" and "blizzard is forcing me to do pvp" posts
    Have not really met anybody before who felt like it was an obligation to do the quests. Have heard it was a problem for top tier mythic people, but thats it. There are just so many sources of gear nowadays, that if you don't want to do pvp, you can do SO much else.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  2. #82
    the only issue i have with warmode is that summoning people with it on/off is fucking retarded

  3. #83
    Bloodsail Admiral Evaddon's Avatar
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    This isn't Blizzards problem, or a Warmode problem. Its a player mentality problem.
    If they penalized raid pvp, people will bitch, if they don't people will bitch.

    How about you get into a raid do the same thing, I've found tons of enjoyment going Raid Against Raid, even situations were it felt like a battle, and we used strategies to overwhelm and catch the other raid off guard. Hell I've even just made 5-mans and PVP'd areas during zone attacks while doing the quest, and had...zero problems. So don't be afraid to group up with people and make friends. Its an MMO afterall.

    Side note, i hardly see pvp raids anymore lol

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Don't really see what raids killing solo players have to do with WPVP rewards? O.o They are as far as possible from each other.

    Besides, people have to have something to do and adding quests somewhat creates that.
    WPvp rewards is an incentive to do world pvp.
    Players will always choose the path of least resistance

    Therefore, raids

  5. #85
    10% extra rewards is 10% less time doing WQ in the long run. Good outweighs the bad

  6. #86
    Elemental Lord Flutterguy's Avatar
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    WPVP has never been balanced and the most memorable WPVP was always with raid groups beating on each other. Ion is just stupid in this regard.

  7. #87
    No problem whatsoever with having multiple parties farming\ganking in the same quest areas. Makes sense, particularly in Invasion WQs.

    What i had a BIG problem with was the lack of adequate guards at the major hubs on each area, but that was fixed recently. Thankfully. If you now get ganked on the major hubs like Terace of the Devoted or Vulpera Hideaway in Vol'dun, lvl 120+ guards keep popping up and can actually kill the players, which is great.

  8. #88
    Herald of the Titans Klingers's Avatar
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    I would honestly say without any extra qualification that Ion Hozikostas is 95% of the problem with WoW in all forms. He doesn't listen, pushes bad game systems, doubles down on bad game systems, lawyer-soeaks player feedback, and generally doesn't respect the intelligence of his audience. Worse than that, the man has zero idea of what fun looks like.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  9. #89
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    WPvp rewards is an incentive to do world pvp.
    Players will always choose the path of least resistance

    Therefore, raids
    I get that people will do things in raids if they are allowed to, since it makes things faster...
    But ain't it impossible to do the WPVP quests in raids? Or am i missing something?
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  10. #90
    Of course not, he is just intentionally turning a blind eye to reality, like a lackey.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    I get that people will do things in raids if they are allowed to, since it makes things faster...
    But ain't it impossible to do the WPVP quests in raids? Or am i missing something?
    You didnt read the OP its unlike you Flurryfang, you are always a "sir" in this forums

    What players do is make a party of 5.......and join the other 10 parties of 5 players doing the killing in the same location.
    Having the same results of forming a raid to complete the quest.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Ion has this imaginary vision of Vanilla WoW prior to Arenas. What he fails to remember is there was relative faction balance there ANDDDDD in the later years on private servers people figured out camping flight points were more efficient then mindless searching for people in a zone.



    I promise you right now when Classic comes out flight points will be camped because it is more efficient because that is what they do on private servers.
    This right here.

    FPs are the easiest thing to camp and these "raids" he talks about are a symptom of that. "Oh hey, there's a FP that will see a constant flow of people but it's completely unguarded. Time to set up camp and get those easy kills before the opposite faction decides to actually fight back."

    The biggest issue of that is, it's also one with the easiest solution that Blizzard is just blind to; Strong Faction NPC guards and penalties. Have the guards there on the FP that will instantly attack you if you kill someone within their range. Have those guards be extremely powerful, immune to CC and get out of combat abilities like Vanish / Feign Death, and also have them be able to detect stealth, breaking anyone out of it that ventures near them.

    Additionally, have punishments in place for killing both the players in that area as well as the guards. 10% reduction in HP, healing taken, damage output per enemy killed coming off the FP. Could have the old dishonorable kill come back with a 30 sec - 1 min timer upon landing. If you're killed with that, the debuff activates and can't be removed easily; either having a fairly long CD or even on death removal. For the NPCs, cut the reduction debuff down to 5% instead.

    Doing that will get people off the FPs and back out into the world, where roaming gangs will still exist, but will encounter people a lot less often.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Its not a problem of sharding.
    Blizzard already has a working technology balancing the amount of people on the same shard (or so they say)

    The problem is that the shard system doesnt take in consideration the exact location where people are.
    So if there are 20 people in one flight point on the map...the other 20 people of the opposing faction may be somewhere else.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Turning off warmode wont make this problem go away.

    Imagine in the future Blizzard wants to create a reward structure for World PvP.
    REWARDS FOR EVERYONE!

    It will be chaos in the world and we will just end up with "squads" ganking innocent people.
    The innocent ppl can turn it off
    Or
    Join a party

  14. #94
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    WPvp rewards is an incentive to do world pvp
    Well... how much it has to be explained same thing? wPvP doesn't need rewards, it's spontaneous and unplanned process (at least from one side, since combat is not a “demand”, but a free choice in a closed world, but when both parties know that the only rule of this world requires fight, it cancels freedom of choice, and therefore everything else about "wPvP") arising from banal clash of interests, curiosity (initiative here is completely left to player) and is carried out on rules of the world, where it happens (without seams, solid, taking into account world NPC's and area geography, professions/"silly" items and attracting passers-by, without choice toggles)... and now attention! WM isn't wPvP.

    It has completely different rules, another organization. "Organized” clashes occurring in designated areas, planned by devs (in fact, this is BG, but not a war for resources or a temporary place of deployment), such as defending a castle/war(fight) for profit&gain&rewards documented by game isn't wPvP for exactly same reason, but conditional “caravans/travelers robbery/killing” is the things what you're talking about... but not the stuff you want.

    When will you understand this? Don't interpret/perceive WM as wPvP, because it's not, never was and, judging lack of understanding among devs in this matter, will never be. PvP servers are wPvP, but not WM - it's just a fight territory with duplication of quests and world (which basically just for scenery) which designed to give you rewards for this activity, it doesn't ask about your choice, just comand/demand the war.

    You don't need WM for wPvP, you don't need rewards for wPvP, you'll be disturbed by shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ/(flying?) during wPvP, you need closed servers with rules that allow this wPvP to exist (just as important how world is organized, movement system within it, design of leveling up and quests, classes design and much much more). That's all! But now you are deprived of such, and no matter how much you whine about injustice of life, this won't change facts above.

    If you want (guilds')war for hubs/castles - ask for them to be designed! If you want balanced groups within a specific territory, even with PvE stuff - ask about BG *point on AV* or some kind of $hitty Ashran! All that being required of you is not to ask wPvP from devs, but specific stuff, because they don't even clearly understand what you want from them! Do you know why? Because you yourself are the ones, who don't ...in the end, what you're asking for has taken place also in vanilla and BC, WotLK had a couple of such territories, but it was all “organized/documented and it was rewarded”, which means again that it wasn’t... what? pure wPvP! At least it was without shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ disgrace *hush angrily*

    NEXT >>
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-04-16 at 12:31 PM.
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Well... how much it has to be explained same thing? wPvP doesn't need rewards, it's spontaneous and unplanned process (at least from one side, since combat is not a “demand”, but a free choice in a closed world, but when both parties know that the only rule of this world requires fight, it cancels freedom of choice, and therefore everything else about "wPvP") arising from banal clash of interests, curiosity and is carried out on rules of the world, where it happens (without seams, solid, taking into account world NPC's and area geography, professions/"silly" items and attracting passers-by, without choice toggles)... and now attention! WM isn't wPvP.

    It has completely different rules, another organization. "Organized” clashes occurring in designated areas, planned by devs (in fact, this is BG, but not a war for resources or a temporary place of deployment), such as defending a castle/war profit&gain&reward documented by game isn't wPvP for exactly same reason, but conditional “caravans/travelers robbery/killing” is the things what you're talking about... but not the stuff you want.

    When will you understand this? Don't interpret/perceive WM as wPvP, because it's not, never was and, judging lack of understanding among devs in this matter, will never be. PvP servers are wPvP, but not WM - it's just a fight territory with duplication of quests and world (which basically just for scenery) which designed to give you rewards for this activity, it doesn't ask about your choice, just comand/demand the war.

    You don't need WM for wPvP, you don't need rewards for wPvP, you'll be disturbed by shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ during wPvP, you need closed servers with rules that allow this wPvP to exist. That's all! But now you are deprived of such, and no matter how much you whine about injustice of life, this won't change facts above.

    If you want (guilds')war for hubs/castles - ask for them to be designed! If you want balanced groups within a specific territory, even with PvE stuff - ask about BG *point on AV* or some kind of $hitty Ashran! All that is required of you is not to ask wPvP from devs, but specific stuff, because they don't even clearly understand what you want from them! Do you know why? Because you yourself are the ones, who don't ...in the end, what you're asking for has taken place also in vanilla and BC, WotLK had a couple of such territories, but it was all “organized/documented and it was rewarded”, which means again that it wasn’t... what? pure wPvP! At least it was without shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ disgrace *hush angrily*
    So...my destiny is to never have any World PvP rewards...because its impossible to balance?
    What a sad story

    But if its true i will take that and embrace the reality

    Is sad though

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    The innocent ppl can turn it off
    Or
    Join a party
    i sometimes wonder why they dont turn it off. i mean is 10% more ap really worth this hassle and nerves ? i dont farm ap so couldnt give less fucks therefore
    i turned it off ages ago to not deal with organized ganking because there is nothing real that i could gain from it.

  17. #97
    This has been happening since this game has PVP servers... It wasnt incentivized, now it is and that's good. DOING WHATEVER IN THIS GAME to keep me staying online, should be rewarded. TLDR: There is no problem, this is how it is, how it was, how maybe it's meant to be as well. Everything is fine PVE has stuff to do, PVP as well. That's all.

  18. #98
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    What a sad story
    No. All you need is to figure out exactly what you want, master the concepts and form the understanding. And after that already literally ask for exactly it, and not a spherical in vacuum an idealized "something" having mutually exclusive features.

    Just think for yourself, you don't want pure wPvP, that's ok, but you want... something. There're even games, judging by the thread, which having this very thing, where it's implemented in such and such form, based on some basic requirements and signs. So ask for it. You obviously want this, so what's the matter?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-04-16 at 12:59 PM.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    No. All you need is to figure out exactly what you want, master the concepts and form the understanding. And after that already literally ask for exactly it, and not a spherical in vacuum an idealized "something" having mutually exclusive features.

    Just think for yourself, you don't want pure wPvP, that's ok, but you want... something. There're even games, judging by the thread, which having this very thing, where it's implemented in such and such form, based on some basic requirements and signs. So ask for it. You obviously want this, so what's the matter?
    I dont understand, you said is impossible to balance a world where "world pvp" has a reward structure.
    Because it goes against the nature of it.

    So how would a reward structure for world pvp work without turning the world upside down with raids killing innocent solo players?

  20. #100
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I dont understand, you said is impossible to balance a world where "world pvp" has a reward structure.
    Because it goes against the nature of it.

    So how would a reward structure for world pvp work without turning the world upside down with raids killing innocent solo players?
    It won't be pure wPvP. You just have to define specific stuff by its actual notion - to call a spade a spade. Understand what you want, find its "formed option", point your finger at that direction and say loud and confident: - I want this! - and then already you can explain in detail exactly what you mean by “this”, like some private trivia in connection with mechanics of current particular game. This doesn't negate your original desire, only makes it more tangible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    All i want for World PvP is to want to login to live a world pvp adventure.
    But raids VS one guy is not cool as Ion said.
    He says what is "healthy" is 5v5, parties fighting eachother.

    I kinda agree.

    But i also like a solo adventure.
    And where have you seen this at least once? If seen, then on what terms? Point out, describe, set conditions. I can say, for example, that I saw this not once during WotLK (without looking at interference in form of flights), it happened also on BC (although, at start of my game, it was essentially something incomprehensible scary for me, because it was my first MMO), I saw it sometimes even in MoP/WoD from place to places (less in WoD since it completely lost characteristics basis, which means that PvEs didn't even bother themselves with such disturbance = no need for items with necessary characteristics, no activity = no experience = no resistance, but still was happening), unfortunately, every day it becomed more and more like you're describing WM in organization, since those, who were engaged in it, didn't do it out of love for this activity, but as a result of boredom and hopelessness, but most cruel and stupid of them were hidden away from other normal players by alternative in form of Ashran (do I need to remind that this wasn’t wPvP?) and WM is responsible for this now (why is there PvE-rewards system (rep./ex./money bonus+items)... that's already another question, which leads to overall sufficient profitability of this, and therefore to a broad need, and therefore involvement of many people, who don't consider process interesting/fun, which aren't sophisticated in this matter = with no experience&skill, and therefore will try to solve this question in easiest accessible way = mad herd, which no one (and especially Blizzard) able to control/impose their conditions, but devs themselves directed them here, so ironically)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    and WM is conceived with one single ultimate goal - murder for the sake of murder (not for living here) and all "local carrots" only contribute to this (goats being motivated by food and go to slaughter for wolves fun, now with possible weekly sides change)
    BGs were handling with this since vanilla (many say that emergence of BG contributed to wPvP death, but this isn't true, this was then, when it separated in its natural form). Although, this could have been easily evaded in a large number of ways starting with Cata (world began to fall apart)... but you know, judging by what you're saying, as soon as it fell on "legal" and profitable basis, everything suddenly became “inedible”. Probably worth thinking about what has changed over the years, isn't it?

    So, the first were flights; the second - world organization (shards/auto-search&teleport/CRZ/phasing/scaling(PvP one ((i)lvl/templates), which judging by the forum still takes place in some form)); the third - characteristics (their absence for PvP, and hence demand for them, and therefore activity); the fourth - division began to pass through talents (defective class design, details in any topic about it) together with AA; also don't forget consequences of second factor in social part... and what have remained after this? - No PvP servers, just wolves and sheep game. Enjoy
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    See how each solution continues to be connected in one way or another not with one game's area, but with at least several, if not with all? And they continue to play with it as a child with constructor.
    What Ion says is just trivial things, just like GС at own time. Wow, much balance, such wPvP, 5vs5 is healthy, very surprising, so captain obvious. Well, yes, of course it's better, but it requires certain conditions for this' natural formation, isn't it? Still you aren't planning to recreate them, so why then this whole empty conversation? Well done devs, buried peoples' natural activity, maybe it's even for the better. People, who're interested in this, initiative, independent ones, who considered this process creative and fun and not “profitable”, got a really good reason to finally leave the project. It remains only to stop sheep from being driven to wolves for slaughter, which then finally will starve to death and devs will sigh calmly.

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    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-04-23 at 06:48 AM.
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