Ion is oblivious to the reality of Warmode?

[Big Thanks]

I get that people will do things in raids if they are allowed to, since it makes things faster...
But ain't it impossible to do the WPVP quests in raids? Or am i missing something?

You didnt read the OP its unlike you Flurryfang, you are always a "sir" in this forums

What players do is make a party of 5.......and join the other 10 parties of 5 players doing the killing in the same location.
Having the same results of forming a raid to complete the quest.

[Thetruth1400]

Ion has this imaginary vision of Vanilla WoW prior to Arenas. What he fails to remember is there was relative faction balance there ANDDDDD in the later years on private servers people figured out camping flight points were more efficient then mindless searching for people in a zone.



I promise you right now when Classic comes out flight points will be camped because it is more efficient because that is what they do on private servers.

This right here.

FPs are the easiest thing to camp and these "raids" he talks about are a symptom of that. "Oh hey, there's a FP that will see a constant flow of people but it's completely unguarded. Time to set up camp and get those easy kills before the opposite faction decides to actually fight back."

The biggest issue of that is, it's also one with the easiest solution that Blizzard is just blind to; Strong Faction NPC guards and penalties. Have the guards there on the FP that will instantly attack you if you kill someone within their range. Have those guards be extremely powerful, immune to CC and get out of combat abilities like Vanish / Feign Death, and also have them be able to detect stealth, breaking anyone out of it that ventures near them.

Additionally, have punishments in place for killing both the players in that area as well as the guards. 10% reduction in HP, healing taken, damage output per enemy killed coming off the FP. Could have the old dishonorable kill come back with a 30 sec - 1 min timer upon landing. If you're killed with that, the debuff activates and can't be removed easily; either having a fairly long CD or even on death removal. For the NPCs, cut the reduction debuff down to 5% instead.

Doing that will get people off the FPs and back out into the world, where roaming gangs will still exist, but will encounter people a lot less often.

[Revamp Man]

Its not a problem of sharding.
Blizzard already has a working technology balancing the amount of people on the same shard (or so they say)

The problem is that the shard system doesnt take in consideration the exact location where people are.
So if there are 20 people in one flight point on the map...the other 20 people of the opposing faction may be somewhere else.

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Turning off warmode wont make this problem go away.

Imagine in the future Blizzard wants to create a reward structure for World PvP.
REWARDS FOR EVERYONE!

It will be chaos in the world and we will just end up with "squads" ganking innocent people.

The innocent ppl can turn it off
Or
Join a party

[Alkizon]

Togabito
WPvp rewards is an incentive to do world pvp

Well... how much it has to be explained same thing? wPvP doesn't need rewards, it's spontaneous and unplanned process (at least from one side, since combat is not a “demand”, but a free choice in a closed world, but when both parties know that the only rule of this world requires fight, it cancels freedom of choice, and therefore everything else about "wPvP") arising from banal clash of interests, curiosity (initiative here is completely left to player) and is carried out on rules of the world, where it happens (without seams, solid, taking into account world NPC's and area geography, professions/"silly" items and attracting passers-by, without choice toggles)... and now attention! WM isn't wPvP.

It has completely different rules, another organization. "Organized” clashes occurring in designated areas, planned by devs (in fact, this is BG, but not a war for resources or a temporary place of deployment), such as defending a castle/war(fight) for profit&gain&rewards documented by game isn't wPvP for exactly same reason, but conditional “caravans/travelers robbery/killing” is the things what you're talking about... but not the stuff you want.

When will you understand this? Don't interpret/perceive WM as wPvP, because it's not, never was and, judging lack of understanding among devs in this matter, will never be. PvP servers are wPvP, but not WM - it's just a fight territory with duplication of quests and world (which basically just for scenery) which designed to give you rewards for this activity, it doesn't ask about your choice, just comand/demand the war.

You don't need WM for wPvP, you don't need rewards for wPvP, you'll be disturbed by shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ/(flying?) during wPvP, you need closed servers with rules that allow this wPvP to exist (just as important how world is organized, movement system within it, design of leveling up and quests, classes design and much much more). That's all! But now you are deprived of such, and no matter how much you whine about injustice of life, this won't change facts above.

If you want (guilds')war for hubs/castles - ask for them to be designed! If you want balanced groups within a specific territory, even with PvE stuff - ask about BG *point on AV* or some kind of $hitty Ashran! All that being required of you is not to ask wPvP from devs, but specific stuff, because they don't even clearly understand what you want from them! Do you know why? Because you yourself are the ones, who don't ...in the end, what you're asking for has taken place also in vanilla and BC, WotLK had a couple of such territories, but it was all “organized/documented and it was rewarded”, which means again that it wasn’t... what? pure wPvP! At least it was without shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ disgrace *hush angrily*

NEXT >>

[Big Thanks]

Well... how much it has to be explained same thing? wPvP doesn't need rewards, it's spontaneous and unplanned process (at least from one side, since combat is not a “demand”, but a free choice in a closed world, but when both parties know that the only rule of this world requires fight, it cancels freedom of choice, and therefore everything else about "wPvP") arising from banal clash of interests, curiosity and is carried out on rules of the world, where it happens (without seams, solid, taking into account world NPC's and area geography, professions/"silly" items and attracting passers-by, without choice toggles)... and now attention! WM isn't wPvP.

It has completely different rules, another organization. "Organized” clashes occurring in designated areas, planned by devs (in fact, this is BG, but not a war for resources or a temporary place of deployment), such as defending a castle/war profit&gain&reward documented by game isn't wPvP for exactly same reason, but conditional “caravans/travelers robbery/killing” is the things what you're talking about... but not the stuff you want.

When will you understand this? Don't interpret/perceive WM as wPvP, because it's not, never was and, judging lack of understanding among devs in this matter, will never be. PvP servers are wPvP, but not WM - it's just a fight territory with duplication of quests and world (which basically just for scenery) which designed to give you rewards for this activity, it doesn't ask about your choice, just comand/demand the war.

You don't need WM for wPvP, you don't need rewards for wPvP, you'll be disturbed by shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ during wPvP, you need closed servers with rules that allow this wPvP to exist. That's all! But now you are deprived of such, and no matter how much you whine about injustice of life, this won't change facts above.

If you want (guilds')war for hubs/castles - ask for them to be designed! If you want balanced groups within a specific territory, even with PvE stuff - ask about BG *point on AV* or some kind of $hitty Ashran! All that is required of you is not to ask wPvP from devs, but specific stuff, because they don't even clearly understand what you want from them! Do you know why? Because you yourself are the ones, who don't ...in the end, what you're asking for has taken place also in vanilla and BC, WotLK had a couple of such territories, but it was all “organized/documented and it was rewarded”, which means again that it wasn’t... what? pure wPvP! At least it was without shards/mode-toggle/phasing/CRZ disgrace *hush angrily*

So...my destiny is to never have any World PvP rewards...because its impossible to balance?
What a sad story

But if its true i will take that and embrace the reality

Is sad though

[kamuimac]

The innocent ppl can turn it off
Or
Join a party

i sometimes wonder why they dont turn it off. i mean is 10% more ap really worth this hassle and nerves ? i dont farm ap so couldnt give less fucks therefore
i turned it off ages ago to not deal with organized ganking because there is nothing real that i could gain from it.

[dentodili]

This has been happening since this game has PVP servers... It wasnt incentivized, now it is and that's good. DOING WHATEVER IN THIS GAME to keep me staying online, should be rewarded. TLDR: There is no problem, this is how it is, how it was, how maybe it's meant to be as well. Everything is fine PVE has stuff to do, PVP as well. That's all.

[Alkizon]

What a sad story

No. All you need is to figure out exactly what you want, master the concepts and form the understanding. And after that already literally ask for exactly it, and not a spherical in vacuum an idealized "something" having mutually exclusive features.

Just think for yourself, you don't want pure wPvP, that's ok, but you want... something. There're even games, judging by the thread, which having this very thing, where it's implemented in such and such form, based on some basic requirements and signs. So ask for it. You obviously want this, so what's the matter?

[Big Thanks]

No. All you need is to figure out exactly what you want, master the concepts and form the understanding. And after that already literally ask for exactly it, and not a spherical in vacuum an idealized "something" having mutually exclusive features.

Just think for yourself, you don't want pure wPvP, that's ok, but you want... something. There're even games, judging by the thread, which having this very thing, where it's implemented in such and such form, based on some basic requirements and signs. So ask for it. You obviously want this, so what's the matter?

I dont understand, you said is impossible to balance a world where "world pvp" has a reward structure.
Because it goes against the nature of it.

So how would a reward structure for world pvp work without turning the world upside down with raids killing innocent solo players?

[Alkizon]

I dont understand, you said is impossible to balance a world where "world pvp" has a reward structure.
Because it goes against the nature of it.

So how would a reward structure for world pvp work without turning the world upside down with raids killing innocent solo players?

It won't be pure wPvP. You just have to define specific stuff by its actual notion - to call a spade a spade. Understand what you want, find its "formed option", point your finger at that direction and say loud and confident: - I want this! - and then already you can explain in detail exactly what you mean by “this”, like some private trivia in connection with mechanics of current particular game. This doesn't negate your original desire, only makes it more tangible.

All i want for World PvP is to want to login to live a world pvp adventure.
But raids VS one guy is not cool as Ion said.
He says what is "healthy" is 5v5, parties fighting eachother.

I kinda agree.

But i also like a solo adventure.

And where have you seen this at least once? If seen, then on what terms? Point out, describe, set conditions. I can say, for example, that I saw this not once during WotLK (without looking at interference in form of flights), it happened also on BC (although, at start of my game, it was essentially something incomprehensible scary for me, because it was my first MMO), I saw it sometimes even in MoP/WoD from place to places (less in WoD since it completely lost characteristics basis, which means that PvEs didn't even bother themselves with such disturbance = no need for items with necessary characteristics, no activity = no experience = no resistance, but still was happening), unfortunately, every day it becomed more and more like you're describing WM in organization, since those, who were engaged in it, didn't do it out of love for this activity, but as a result of boredom and hopelessness, but most cruel and stupid of them were hidden away from other normal players by alternative in form of Ashran (do I need to remind that this wasn’t wPvP?) and WM is responsible for this now (why is there PvE-rewards system (rep./ex./money bonus+items)... that's already another question, which leads to overall sufficient profitability of this, and therefore to a broad need, and therefore involvement of many people, who don't consider process interesting/fun, which aren't sophisticated in this matter = with no experience&skill, and therefore will try to solve this question in easiest accessible way = mad herd, which no one (and especially Blizzard) able to control/impose their conditions, but devs themselves directed them here, so ironically)

and WM is conceived with one single ultimate goal - murder for the sake of murder (not for living here) and all "local carrots" only contribute to this (goats being motivated by food and go to slaughter for wolves fun, now with possible weekly sides change)

BGs were handling with this since vanilla (many say that emergence of BG contributed to wPvP death, but this isn't true, this was then, when it separated in its natural form). Although, this could have been easily evaded in a large number of ways starting with Cata (world began to fall apart)... but you know, judging by what you're saying, as soon as it fell on "legal" and profitable basis, everything suddenly became “inedible”. Probably worth thinking about what has changed over the years, isn't it?

So, the first were flights; the second - world organization (shards/auto-search&teleport/CRZ/phasing/scaling(PvP one ((i)lvl/templates), which judging by the forum still takes place in some form)); the third - characteristics (their absence for PvP, and hence demand for them, and therefore activity); the fourth - division began to pass through talents (defective class design, details in any topic about it) together with AA; also don't forget consequences of second factor in social part... and what have remained after this? - No PvP servers, just wolves and sheep game. Enjoy

See how each solution continues to be connected in one way or another not with one game's area, but with at least several, if not with all? And they continue to play with it as a child with constructor.

What Ion says is just trivial things, just like GС at own time. Wow, much balance, such wPvP, 5vs5 is healthy, very surprising, so captain obvious. Well, yes, of course it's better, but it requires certain conditions for this' natural formation, isn't it? Still you aren't planning to recreate them, so why then this whole empty conversation? Well done devs, buried peoples' natural activity, maybe it's even for the better. People, who're interested in this, initiative, independent ones, who considered this process creative and fun and not “profitable”, got a really good reason to finally leave the project. It remains only to stop sheep from being driven to wolves for slaughter, which then finally will starve to death and devs will sigh calmly.

<< BACK

[Big Thanks]

It won't be pure wPvP. You just have to define specific stuff by its actual notion - to call a spade a spade. Understand what you want, find its "formed option", point your finger at that direction and say loud and confident: - I want this! - and then already you can explain in detail exactly what you mean by “this”, like some private trivia in connection with mechanics of current particular game. This doesn't negate your original desire, it just makes it more tangible.

All i want for World PvP is to want to login to live a world pvp adventure.
But raids VS one guy is not cool as Ion said.
He says what is "healthy" is 5v5, parties fighting eachother.

I kinda agree.

But i also like a solo adventure.

[Revamp Man]

i sometimes wonder why they dont turn it off. i mean is 10% more ap really worth this hassle and nerves ? i dont farm ap so couldnt give less fucks therefore
i turned it off ages ago to not deal with organized ganking because there is nothing real that i could gain from it.

I had it on at launch because no one could gank
Got to 118 turned it off and only used it for the high rewards when they were introduced

[Triceron]

In another part of the interview he pretends there is no issue with faction balance. Just because you see %'s does not mean the servers are healthy. When I was on Arthas it was SUICIDE for you to have warmode on as Alliance. Just the opposite on Stormrage where Horde are ganked immediately upon leaving a city with warmode on.

Ion took the major issue of pvp server balance and spread it to pve servers then has the balls to call it some big accomplishment.

Is faction imbalance even fixable? This has been a thing since world PVP was added to the game. Every time they've made efforts to balance things out, it's the players who just do whatever they can to circumvent the checks and balances to gain whatever insignificant advantage they could, and that ends up upsetting the balance once again. It's not even always in favour of one side.

Honestly I think this is world PVP working as intended. It's a lot more like the South Shore/Tarren Mill days of domination. You either joined the overwhelming force or you were steamrolled as a result. World PVP was never about faction balance, it was always about waving the EPEEN when you're on the winning side..

[Big Thanks]

Is faction imbalance even fixable? This has been a thing since world PVP was added to the game. Every time they've made efforts to balance things out, it's the players who just do whatever they can to circumvent the checks and balances to gain whatever insignificant advantage they could, and that ends up upsetting the balance once again. It's not even always in favour of one side.

Honestly I think this is world PVP working as intended. It's a lot more like the South Shore/Tarren Mill days of domination. You either joined the overwhelming force or you were steamrolled as a result. World PVP was never about faction balance, it was always about waving the EPEEN when you're on the winning side..

I think you are right. Faction imbalance is extremely if not impossible to balance.
Because it must take in consideration where the players are.

If one faction decides to do a raid south of the map...the other raid of the other faction could be on north of the map how can this be balanced

[Benedictu]

WPvP did have incentive back in the day. The incentive was to kick the crap out of rival guilds and get bragging rights. (most) Guilds aren't groups of friends any more and people do not tend to want to do socially cooperative things like WPvP anymore. We all want our shiny carrot at the end of the stick to do anything in game.

[Tazr]

Warmode isn't a new thing, you've always been able to swap between PvE servers and PvP servers... but you used to have to pay for the privilege.
Now you just head to your capital and swap server type.

That's all ... people complaining about having more choice and paying Blizzard less money are missing the point

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Incorrect - Warmode will be ENABLED, but it will still be up to you to toggle it ON or OFF.

And has Blizz confirmed this, because for War Mode, "enabled" means it IS on. Why would Blizz even explicitly need to explain you can War Mode there when you can War Mode everywhere? And then a point was made of a neutral hub.

[Thoughtsinchaos]

I think warmode is a fantastic system, and has absolutely helped the world pvp situation tremendously.

If it’s something I didn’t truly enjoy, I’d think it’d be a very clear-cut solution of just turning it off.

The small bonus to AP wouldn’t be worth the aggravation IMO, and if absolutely maxing out AP happened to be the sole reason someone was playing this game, I would imagine they’re merely speeding themselves towards inevitable burnout, and are miserable regardless.

[SirCowdog]

All i want for World PvP is to want to login to live a world pvp adventure.
But raids VS one guy is not cool as Ion said.
He says what is "healthy" is 5v5, parties fighting eachother.

I kinda agree.

But i also like a solo adventure.

The problem with this desire stems from trying to apply a PVE point of view to a PVP environment. In PVE our characters are the heroes. We casually walk our way through challenges and enemies without much effort. And even if you die, you just respawn and try again, eventually winning. There is almost no PVE content that won't eventually be utterly defeated by repeated attempts. Victory is guaranteed.

The difference with PVP is that players don't just stay defeated. They get back up and come at you again and again. Victory is NOT guaranteed. In fact if you go out solo trying to be a "hero" especially in an RPG where personal skill takes a back seat to raw stats, you might NEVER win. No amount of heroism or skill at playing is going to let 1 player defeat 20.

So creating a solo adventure in a PVP environment is basically impossible. Even if you could somehow do it, it would be , at best, creating that experience at the expense of another player. And at worst, creating that experience at the expense of MANY players, making it a net loss.

However, that doesn't mean that there can't be systems in place to help mitigate the worst types of experiences. Other games do it. The problem is that Blizzard isn't even trying. They're just playing games with incentives for WPVP instead of trying to actually address the fundamental flaws with slapping a PVP game mode onto a PVE environment.

When people tell you "form a group" or "just turn off War Mode", that doesn't actually address the problems with War Mode. It AVOIDS the symptoms of war mode, certainly. But it doesn't actually help solve the underlying problems with it. And the fact that so many people don't understand that difference is troubling.

- - - Updated - - -

I think warmode is a fantastic system, and has absolutely helped the world pvp situation tremendously.

In what ways?

I mean, giving incentives to turning on War Mode definitely gets more players into the pool, but how does War Mode actually improve the underlying PVP system?

[schwarzkopf]

And has Blizz confirmed this, because for War Mode, "enabled" means it IS on.

No Warmode enabled means exactly what enabled means ... it means it is available for the user to toggle.
Standard English usage of the word enabled.

- - - Updated - - -

but how does War Mode actually improve the underlying PVP system?

By removing the cost barrier to switching between PvE and PvP server type - more people who want to enter will be in it, and less people who don't want to be will be.

[SirCowdog]

By removing the cost barrier to switching between PvE and PvP server type - more people who want to enter will be in it, and less people who don't want to be will be.

That improves the accessibility to World PvP, but not WPVP itself. There's some tangential benefit to being able to opt out of PVP for players from old PVP servers, but PVE servers always had that option with the added benefit of being able to unflag anywhere at any time.

That sounds like no net gain. So again I ask: How does War Mode improve the fundamental, underlying quality of world PVP? Because as far as I can tell it actually doesnt. Even the incentives to PVP are PVE oriented in the form of gold and AP! The PVP rewards of honor points are virtually no different than before.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not like the game has never had WPVP quests before either. All War Mode really does is give us a new UI. It's superficial. A reskin that doesn't actually change WPVP at all.