Immigration System May Have Reached a Breaking Point

[Donatello Trumpi]

You see, this would have been a policy debate in 2018. In 2019, it's a debate on how sausage is made.

Trump's side, even if he were to win re-election, is not going to get 60 votes in the Senate to pass a budget that funds border security in the Trump vision of it. There are not enough vulnerable Democratic seats up in 2020 and 2022. It's more likely, in fact, Democrats pick up a seat or two.

You're also not going to win the House in 2022. Narrow the majority? Maybe. Bit flipping a chamber in the election after a flip is exceedingly rare, and there are no metrics pointing to that being a risk. Which means Nancy Pelosi will blockade you until 2022. And if she hangs on then, to 2024.

So now that the functional aspects of getting a budget that funds border security beyond what Democrats agree to is a dead end, what other avenues does Trump have.

Reprogramming DoD funds? That trick will work once, for a tiny portion of barrier. Why will it work only once? Because Democrats warned the DoD: do this under the authorization of the 2019 budget, and the language to reprogram funds will be removed from the 2020 budget. And sure enough, that's the case.

You people fought your battle stupidly and lost. Time to deal with the consequences of that. The wall is dead and it is never coming back, because there is no avenue to the Trump-side getting the votes they need to pay for it.

Wouldn't be the first time trump conqured the odds.

Doing that to Central America would be impossible. It's vastly larger and more complicated, and the US will not engage in the kind of tactics the Israelis use.

I am pretty sure US intelligence agencies have plenty of data regarding the south americas to supplement a walls security.
Contraspaghetti *cough* you know

American citizens commit more crimes than immigrants.

And remember who is the most likely person to commit a violent crime against you. It's not an illegal. It's not a stranger. It's a family member, friend or associate. You should be far more concerned about people you know, than people you don't know, if you're so afraid of your security.

In the US it might be due to outliers like chicago. For the majority of europe, especially sweden, immigrants or (especially unassimilated) 1st/2nd generation children of immigrant parents commit the majority of crimes. Some stats might try to cover up the crime rate of the latter by having "european born" in the crime statistic.

[Theodarzna]

Indeed it is. The people will always be scared and too afraid to let go of tradition and past. You have to tread VERY carefully, or they become restless and violent, and the whole project is either delayed or worse, cancelled. It's not that I would find pleasure in manipulating people; I might not even do that, if offered such a position in whatever shady cabal that probably doesn't even exist. It's just that I don't see any other way, and I really wanna get rid of reasons for hatred and violence, of which identity pride and greed are probably the first two.

People are just incredibly romantic and emotional when it comes to all this.

If it makes you feel any better, I would do this incredibly slowly, over 2-3 centuries. Trade, technological progress and travel are essential IMO. For example, one incredible boom of traveling happened in my country when we were able to visit all EU without visas, just with the identity card. Just do more of this. Then take one more country in the union. Every 10 yrs or so. Travel, being able to work in the other countries with relative ease etc.

My "method" would be so slow and so discreet that pretty much nobody would even notice much of a change in a lifetime. But our lives aren't that important. What matters is humanity as a whole, at least to me. So it can be a long term project, to minimize the potential violence and societal rifts.

I'd probably leave some documents that would decrypt in 1000 years, so our offspring will know the truth, and how hard it was to finally get all of us together working for the common good.

What other solutions are there? Time alone will make cultures die and races disappear. Probably even the much "problematic" gender will become extinct in 500-1000 years as we develop artificial bodies and organs, like uteri. The whole "human" concept will change dramatically. Do keep in mind that our 100 years here at best are pretty much nothing, just a small, tiny period of time, our species will most probably continue for thousands of years, and it will constantly change and improve along the way.

I don't see the merit in a project based on manipulation and lies. It unironically violates all the values you seem to claim to have.

[Donatello Trumpi]

I don't see the merit in a project based on manipulation and lies. It unironically violates all the values you seem to claim to have.

If you say you love someone , are you being manipulative? The truth is after all that your hormones, neuro transmitters, genes are at play here and not your own free will.

My point is, if the truth makes certain people insane and/or violent, is it really manipulation if you "omit certain things" so the person doesnt act that way?

[Theodarzna]

If you say you love someone , are you being manipulative? The truth is after all that your hormones, neuro transmitters, genes are at play here and not your own free will.

My point is, if the truth makes certain people insane and/or violent, is it really manipulation if you "omit certain things" so the person doesnt act that way?

Is it right to lie to people to get them to go along with one's goals? A dream world basically in the hopes that enough propaganda and secrecy and you can effectively subjugate them to something without them rallying to defend themselves from what is essentially an attack on them.

It falls into the category of "Doing evil shit".

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Well, help improve it then. What would be the way to do this openly, without having the consequences that we see all around us these days? I personally don't see any. As for lies, I'm not so sure about it. Manipulation, yea, but there wouldn't be lying, just obfuscation.

I'd rather avoid as much human suffering as possible and conflict, and would typically seek ways to achieve that, so if a little manipulation is needed along the way... so be it.

Anyway, this is completely an intellectual exercise, as we all know the politicians are way, way too dumb to make this happen, and that the world is almost entirely driven by pure greed. So what will happen instead will be more immigration, followed by a brutal backlash from the native populations, more war, more useless destruction and loss of life, more desperate greed and seeking how to make the most money from the poorest and most desperate people and so on.

There must be a vision you have for this human species. Feel free to share. Nothing is perfect, and everything has downsides.

I'd start by not doing it since its wrong.

My vision is the man the animal, humans as they are, in keeping with their respective Dharma. My position would be to let go of the desire for a new kind of human and embrace with love the human that is instead of committing to all sorts of horrors and grizzly sins to try and make the impossible.

Live with what is and find peace in that.

[Draco-Onis]

Is it right to lie to people to get them to go along with one's goals? A dream world basically in the hopes that enough propaganda and secrecy and you can effectively subjugate them to something without them rallying to defend themselves from what is essentially an attack on them.

It falls into the category of "Doing evil shit".

So politics....

[Donatello Trumpi]

Is it right to lie to people to get them to go along with one's goals? A dream world basically in the hopes that enough propaganda and secrecy and you can effectively subjugate them to something without them rallying to defend themselves from what is essentially an attack on them.

It falls into the category of "Doing evil shit".

Its more along the line of "playing along to preserve peace". Do you go to the mall on december, see a child who is sitting on santas lap and shout: "Santa doesn't exist ! He is just a capitalistic tool to extract money from the youth and drive senseless spending! "

I mean that would be beyond autistic, but you would be telling the truth after all, no?

[Theodarzna]

Its more along the line of "playing along to preserve peace". Do you go to the mall on december, see a child who is sitting on santas lap and shout: "Santa doesn't exist. He is just a capitalistic tool to extract money from the youth and drive senseless spending! "

I mean that would be beyond autistic, but you would be telling the truth after all, no?

Nah, I tell the child about Yule and spirits that grant wishes in the forest.

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So politics....

You are almost close to understanding, so very very close.

[Donatello Trumpi]

Nah, I tell the child about Yule and spirits that grant wishes in the forest.

which is not manipulation?

[Blur4stuff]

The immigration system is worse off now than it was a few years ago, sure. I don't think we can count on republicans to fix it given that they are unwilling to do what actually needs to be done. That does not include building a wall and running internment camps.

Everything they want to do is treating a symptom in the worst possible way. They're just creating hardship and causing the next few generations of associated people to hate the GOP, Trump, and even the US.

[Theodarzna]

which is not manipulation?

I'm not really seeking to change the child into anything, nor reshape countries and peoples.

Given CryotriX has appealed to a kind of Secular Liberal Global utopianism, it would be rather ironic that its only means of existing is subterfuge, coercion and avoiding at all costs democratic will and clear popular input.

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Basically @Donatello Trumpi to better illuminate a difference, @CryotriX seems to be for lying to someone to get them to do something they would otherwise not want to do. Like CryotriX would tell a child "no I am here to bring presents" but actually intends to take away the childs toys and clothing in the night.

Me telling a child about forest spirits isn't really lying or even manipulative because in context, I, first of all, would be speaking from a sincere belief, I'd actually believe what I was talking about. Where as CryotriX says he intends to do one thing but does another thing, knowing nobody would favor his actual intentions.

In a more grizzly example, CryotriX assures a pretty girl that it's just a drink, but in reality, it has been drugged and she will instead have a very different Friday night than she planned nor would have consented to.

[Theodarzna]

Considering how ambiguous Dharma is as a concept, it's hard to say what "Dharma" means for current humans. There's also these things called technology and human progress, and they simply don't wait for us to catch up emotionally and rationally with their possibilities. So you need to take them into consideration, because medicine isn't going away, neither are computers and AI, and by now it's really no longer a mystery that we will merge in some way, probably sooner rather than later. I suspect we're already a generation or two deep in spending probably more time with computers than other persons.

To live with what is is incredibly hard, as we are typically unhappy and always seeking for more. Even if you say you're not, you're an exception. There's always the need for justice. We cannot have systems of clear injustice and unfairness perpetuating endlessly, they will end one way or another.

I simply prefer these things happen PEACEFULLY, with as little human suffering as possible. You have to be smart to keep the peace, you need control, and sometimes you end up manipulating others, yeah. I feel that it's worth the manipulation if you manage to reduce human suffering. You'll never manage to reduce it completely, but you can at least try to avoid as much of it as possible.

By the way, if you just allow life to follow its course, the "horrors and grizzly sins" will still happen outside of your bubble, and even in it, life's full of surprises outside your control.

Anyway, nice examples in later posts, consent and everything heh. The sad reality of life is that humans are kind of dumb and they work against their own interests. They're also easily manipulated. So if somebody would manipulate them towards less violence, more unity and more peace... well, so be it.

That would not imply drugging. We need them to be aware and learning+improving. It would just imply incentives and persuasion. Talking and words are underestimated

But yeah, my world would end up in some sort of "Secular Liberal Global utopianism" with a technocratic leadership, the good kind, not the one that conspiracy theorists cry about on Youtube. It would be very focused on science and technology and on colonizing and exploiting the nearby space, and further. There would be lots of robot labor, and humans would be almost freed from physical menial tasks, and able to focus on art, R&D, sports and leisure. Sure, all fantasy, yet who knows what will happen. We're already experiencing what is essentially a miracle that would have been thought as impossible 100 years ago, just because of computing. That's just one century.

Imagine 1000 years of it. Just don't be stupid and kill each other, and the future looks quite amazing.

The future you envision is essentially someone who watched too much Star Trek and assumed that was prophecy.

Our seeking for more has radically polluted the planet and shifted the climate.

Finally, what is our collective interests and who are you to dictate what they are? Again, this is very paternalistic and given people would reject it by your own admission, how is it for anyone's interests if its essentially coercive brainwashing and social control?

[Theodarzna]

https://www.google.com/search?q=scie...%20came%20real

Although, I haven't watch much Star Trek at all, maybe one movie and 2-3 episodes at most.

I am guilty of reading a lot of Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, Philip K. Dick, Gerrard Klein etc. People fear the unknown. Embracing science will lead us exactly into the unknown, with the inherent risks and rewards. I still think it's better to embrace it, or we will get embraced by progress ourselves.

Best to do it on our own terms.

And I'd say progress is entirely conjecture. Time is cyclical and the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions.

[Theodarzna]

Hey, I didn't expect to convince you. If good intentions are potentially leading to hell, bad or neutral intentions will statistically lead to hell faster

Gotta press forward with progress though. Our survival pretty much depends on leaving the planet and/or fixing/delaying climate catastrophe.

All in all, I'm personally just happy and thankful that I am experiencing what is the most exciting era in our species' history, and being part of the technological miracle all around us. I know many in these forums have been born into a tech world and feel it's all natural, yet it definitely isn't, we're experiencing something incredible.

Yeah, never-ending growth and such is about the same strategy and way of life of cancer, and cancer isn't a good thing to be. The problem is essentially I don't believe all sacrifices are worth it, and that such a quest is essentially evil. It gets to be utter hatred for the idea of America as articulated by Skroe, on in which man is a mere instrument of production, material productivity and consumption. While I will say Skroe's attitude is popular, particularly among elite classes which I doubt Skroe is a member of, it is essentially a horrific viewpoint.

Tragically, or hilariously, you grasped this than immediately forgot it as you articulate the same basic relationship between state and what I guess is merely tax cattle in both your views. The idea of Progress is exactly that. Progress is a nice term, but it whitewashes an untold and unnumbered set of crimes. If one turns around and looks back at the sum total of history, the horror is made evident. If genocide and unfathomable brutality made America possible in the first place, one wonders what unimaginable suffering and anguish will make the next your thing possible. If the present is built on just that same heap of ruin and death, what will your future be if not the exact same thing?

But then again we are locked in a Linear versus Cyclical view of time and history. I think the fault in your thinking is its kind of a serial killers defense. "Why focus on the past, its where all my bodies are buried". The future ofcourse matters because it has possibility, but taking hold and trying to direct the future, especially for people who didn't ask for it, didn't want it and you even explicitly call for leaving their consent out of it seems to just be repeating things, you call it progress, I call it a familiar story.

[Rasulis]

Wouldn't be the first time trump conqured the odds.



I am pretty sure US intelligence agencies have plenty of data regarding the south americas to supplement a walls security.
Contraspaghetti *cough* you know




In the US it might be due to outliers like chicago. For the majority of europe, especially sweden, immigrants or (especially unassimilated) 1st/2nd generation children of immigrant parents commit the majority of crimes. Some stats might try to cover up the crime rate of the latter by having "european born" in the crime statistic.

You can't compare the European immigrants to those coming to the US.

I understand that correlation does not imply causation, but San Diego is a perfect example.

We are next to the border with Mexico. Our economy is completey intertwined with Tijuana. We have people living in Tijuana that work and go to school in San Diego. San Ysidro merchants depend on customers from Tijuana. Many San Diegans get their medical treatment and prescriptions filled in Tijuana.

San Diego County has taken in more refugees than any other region of in the US for the past seven years. We have refugees from Iraq, Sudan, Kenya, Syria, and also Chaldean. Since October 2018, a coalition of nonprofits led by Jewish Family Service in San Diego has helped and sheltered 11,000 asylum seekers released by ICE.

In 2018, San Diego has the lowest crime and homicide rate of the 30 metro areas in San Diego. San Diego homicide rate was 1.9 per 100,000 residents for all of 2018. Baltimore was the top dog at 51+. You probably think that we have police officers coming out of the ying-yang. You would be wrong. San Diego has 12.8 sworn officers per 10,000 residents. You can take my words that those are extremely low numbers or you can check yourself. I'll even give you the link.

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/s...partments.html

[Heran]

San Diego homicide rate was 1.9 per 100,000 residents for all of 2018.

Is this supposed to be some kind of feat? That's rather high.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Then stop providing so-called "Humanitarian aid" and let them come in and work. As @Skroe said.

I don't get why Republicans want our national budget to pay for immigrants to be housed in cages. You create concentration camps and then bitch that we don't have the money to support it? Is it time for the gas chambers already? Because that's what Germany started doing when they couldn't fit any more Jews into concentration camps, they started mass killing them in an effort to stave off the cost. Every inbred redneck and hypocritical Californian conservative seems to believe that the entire events of the holocaust happened at the same time. They don't seem to know that Nazi Germany only wanted to detain Jews at first, and it was only when cost and space started becoming an issue that mass killing was suggested.

If Trump is already saying that we need to release illegals into sanctuary cities to let them deal with it, and now this "humanitarian crisis", it's obvious the US doesn't have the money to keep operating its hispanic concentration camps. Get rid of them, let every migrant go and become taxpayers.

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international law is meaningless.

we're the US. we can do whatever we want.

and if i was president, i would do things much different from the weak filth currently running things. naivety is ruining western civilization, the greatest form of civilization that has existed since ancient rome. i've had about enough of it.

This person here, in addition to being a psychopath, seems to believe that being president makes someone all-powerful. Forgetting that the government is comprised of hundreds of people who all contribute to the US's rule, and that one person, even the president, screaming "KILL EM ALL!" would get ousted immediately for being crazy.

drones, mines, guns.

open fire. they will stop, or they will die.

i wouldn't tolerate being walked over if it were up to me. it's tiresome, start opening fire and don't stop until they do.

But why use drones, mines and guns? All of that is insanely expensive you realize. You could just round them all up and put them into gas chambers. FAR cheaper than bullets and mines @derpkitteh

[Rasulis]

Is this supposed to be some kind of feat? That's rather high.

For US, it is pretty good. Actually very good.

https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/...eUpdate_V2.pdf

Can't compare to Singapore obviously. On the other hand, there probably aren't too many cities in the world than can.

[Theodarzna]

The thing is that Skroe is a proud American that fantasizes of grand conflicts between empires and his country coming up on top, and he's quite unwilling to consider solutions that would result in better distribution of power, influence and resources. My vision about the world is 100% against such a thing, my system would dramatically improve life conditions and education for the average joe and would push more and more humans toward intellectual and scientific pursuits, far from misery and suffering and conflict. Even my "manipulation" would be just temporary, simply because I doubt that most humans would agree to let go of the past and their tendencies. If you do things slowly, most humans would not realize it because of the short lifespan. If you distribute wealth and power better, you also diminish the reasons for revolt and discontent, so the plan would work rather smoothly.

I wouldn't lower myself to using violence, war and genocide to implement it. It's entirely unnecessary. It's not a case of "the end justifies the means". It's a case of being patient, compassionate and persistent, while doing everything in your power to avoid the mistakes you've mentioned.

Also worth saying that this is not a quest for power and a way to satisfy greed, but a quest for more unity, more cohesiveness, more justice and more technological progress. It's not about extending an empire or establishing a new one. It's about ditching the empires and bringing humans together, without them noticing, since they're kinda bad at this thing called "getting along".

First, you are not the first to claim noble intent, even Skroe will when pushed claim its all for some noble purpose, he or she may even name the same exact reasoning as justification. You two are not really as distinct as you imagine yourselves to be. You both seem to want the same basic project, but I'll give credit to Skroe, he is more willing to at times acknowledge the horror of it, even if he or she does not enjoy having it acknowledged. In that, you are a bit more frieghtening because you cannot see it or completely deny it.

[Rooflesstoofless]

Easy solution. Just take the people who hire them and shoot them in the street.

[I Push Buttons]

Then stop providing so-called "Humanitarian aid" and let them come in and work.

And when their part time minimum wage jobs aren't enough to live on, like they are for most other people with similar working circumstances? That's assuming they can even get those jobs in the first place with their average education level being high school dropout (referring specifically to the cohort of people who represent undocumented migrants; obviously legal immigrants are on average far far more educated) and an inability to speak English in a country where English is the primary language...?