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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I just don't understand why you are writing this.

    Yes, customization is about having a choice to make. All the things I mentioned that we used to have were providing these choices. We don't have these choices anymore. That means we have less customization.

    "For instance, if you compare let's say MoP to now, you *may* have 1-2 more situational spells in your rotation, but your gear very very rarely differed from someone else, since you all got the same trinkets, rings, pieces of tier, weapons ideally." --- right. Ideally. In reality, you didn't have your ideal gear for most of the time where it mattered. You were fluctuating between a myriad of non-ideal states, choosing between them the best on paper / the best you could perform to / the one you liked most, etc. That's customization. Now what you choose? You choose ilvl plus maaaaaaybe a couple of azerite powers that happen to outpace ilvl. There's no comparison.
    You choose traits that change the way you play, things that add situational throughput? like having keep your wits about you as a rogue for 5mans and knowing "hey, this is suboptimal for raids, so i'ma switch it when I'm doing that"

    And no, in MoP you went from HoF tier to ToT tier to SoO tier. Now you actively choose between the how many ever unique traits and aim for 6. It's actually apples and oranges.

    I made sure I said meaningful choices because you *didn't* have a choice between ToT tier and SoO tier, but you can choose between Revolving Blades and Thirsting Blades.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    You choose traits that change the way you play, things that add situational throughput?
    LOL. My main spec has zero traits that can change the way the spec is played. Same for many specs of my alts. Other specs have something closer to 1/4 of a choice by former standards. The amount of choice that "can change the way you play" in azerite traits is so small, you need a microscope to see it.

    You are for some reason talking about former choice as being a choice between ToT gear and SoO gear, while I am talking about choosing to, say, go all mastery or all haste or hybrid. There were plenty of the latter, even just for stats. And I am not even talking about us having previously many more choices in talents + glyphs. Meaningful choices - exactly like you say.
    Last edited by rda; 2019-04-16 at 10:02 AM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    LOL. My main spec has zero traits that can change the way the spec is played. Same for many specs of my alts. Other specs have something closer to 1/4 of a choice by former standards. The amount of choice that "can change the way you play" in azerite traits is so small, you need a microscope to see it.

    You are for some reason talking about former choice as being a choice between ToT gear and SoO gear, while I am talking about choosing to, say, go all mastery or all haste or hybrid. There were plenty of the latter, even just for stats. And I am not even talking about us having previously many more choices in talents + glyphs. Meaningful choices - exactly like you say.
    Guess what, you can choose to go whatever secondary stat you want to now, as well. Funny how that didn't change and shows your limited grasp on the core concept at hand.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    LOL. My main spec has zero traits that can change the way the spec is played. Same for many specs of my alts. Other specs have something closer to 1/4 of a choice by former standards. The amount of choice that "can change the way you play" in azerite traits is so small, you need a microscope to see it.

    You are for some reason talking about former choice as being a choice between ToT gear and SoO gear, while I am talking about choosing to, say, go all mastery or all haste or hybrid. There were plenty of the latter, even just for stats. And I am not even talking about us having previously many more choices in talents + glyphs. Meaningful choices - exactly like you say.
    You can't even choose what weapon you want to use for many specs anymore.

    Who cares if it was sub-optimal.

    I also love how rohoz likes to claim that Glyphs didn't offer choice because you picked the best one yet Azerite traits somehow do?

    You want to bullshit on about the "illusion" of choice then you can't cherry pick which illusion is better than the other.

  5. #245
    I remember during Wrath there were 2 Build for MM


    One for entry gear and one for better gear ( arp etc etc )


    The second build was so game changing that you didn't use Arcane Shot no more in the rotation.


    THAT was something " changing your rotation " that isn't present RN in BFA



    At the best you have Primal Instic that make you delay AoTW for 1 BS if you want to not waste the BS extra Stack otherwise it isn't that changing.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    Guess what, you can choose to go whatever secondary stat you want to now, as well. Funny how that didn't change and shows your limited grasp on the core concept at hand.
    I can do this much less than before, that's the point. There are less stats to begin with, there are many less gems, there are many less enchants, etc.

    Anyway, I think I said what I had to say about the subject, if that's not enough to convince you that we had way more choice before, then fine.

  7. #247
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    Agreed OP. WoW has phenomenal content, art, animations, music, lore, and everything else from a production standpoint. None of this matters if the game design is hollow and the core gameplay loop is un-fun.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    As well as many others think current demo is far better. Thats the point. There is no point in discussing opinions.

    "a large number of dissatisfied people" been there since pretty much BC. Neither Legion, nor WoD, nor MoP had better class design.
    People were always complaining about it. Always

    I could go on a days how Legion rotations were dumb and clunky. But I dont, because its a pure waste of my time.

    I know rotations of all classes, could play competitive in just about every spec.
    Does it mean I can set standards for other people what is fun and what is not?
    Does that mean during legion when I say sidewinders were dumb all other hunters should immediately switch to other talent because I say so?
    Does that mean blizzard should never change rotations? I would die of boredom if they keep same it for more than 1 expac.

    Want some evidence? Look up my addon MaxDps - living proof I know all specs, rotations and how they have changed during that 4 year period.

    Again this and other similar threads are pointless, just because your favorite spec went down from good to average doesn't mean all other specs are shit now.
    Well first lets address something. I do not care whay you played so bringing up Maxdps is pointless. Second i never said all specs are shits, thats you forcing a narrative on me i never made.

    Third, no shit people always complained thats a no brainer there. The difference is both the subjects and magnitude of complains. In Legion the complains were about systematic things that either A. still exist or B. were Legion specific like Legendaries. Class Design complaints in Legion were mostly aligned with Balance and maybe 1-2 traits. Class Design complaints in MoP were almost none existent and was again mostly about Balance.

    In BfA people did NOTHING but lose stuff. Gameplay got slower, Gearing got easier, Classes/specs lost abilities, azerite traits are far less interesting than tier sets were, ect. Saying its just usual complaints when its obvious the game went through a lot of changes is just asinine at this point. I want to remind you in Legion there was 0 Threads both on WoW Official Forums or MMO-Champ that was about that said "pointless with current class design" Because with the exception of a couple specs Class Design was just fine Legion and they actively worked to improve class design in Legion. BfA, The little they have done made little to no functional difference.

    Wanna know what difference the Class changes made for me as a Shadow Priest? Now i have build up Insanity before a pull and get a couple more stacks.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    THAT was something " changing your rotation " that isn't present RN in BFA
    Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea how much azerite trait affects your rotation.
    Explosive Potential, Deadshot, Arcanic Pulsar, Lively Spirit and about 30 more spread in other classes.

    I dare to say, BfA has the most char customization WoW ever had.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    The difference is both the subjects and magnitude of complains. In Legion the complains were about systematic things that either A. still exist or B. were Legion specific like Legendaries.
    You are right, complains in legion got to LEGENDARY level, a shitstorm of 11/10 magnitude about: Legendaries, Camera changes and various other things. I havent seen so much complains anywhere else as on WoW forums when Legion was a thing.
    A bonus, 143 pages thread about camera: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748204616

    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Class Design complaints in Legion were mostly aligned with Balance and maybe 1-2 traits. Class Design complaints in MoP were almost none existent and was again mostly about Balance.
    Oh please, MM with sidewinders, SV being a melee, dumbed down druid bala, unplayable warrior prot and many many others. You must have super short memory.
    And dont get me started about MoP when BM could like destroy you on arena with 1 button


    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    In BfA people did NOTHING but lose stuff. Gameplay got slower, Gearing got easier, Classes/specs lost abilities, azerite traits are far less interesting than tier sets were, ect. Saying its just usual complaints when its obvious the game went through a lot of changes is just asinine at this point. I want to remind you in Legion there was 0 Threads both on WoW Official Forums or MMO-Champ that was about that said "pointless with current class design" Because with the exception of a couple specs Class Design was just fine Legion and they actively worked to improve class design in Legion. BfA, The little they have done made little to no functional difference.

    Wanna know what difference the Class changes made for me as a Shadow Priest? Now i have build up Insanity before a pull and get a couple more stacks.
    Gameplay got slower? Guess you don't have a good gear or you playing assa rogue with lowest APM. Now here is the facts:
    T22: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T22_Raid.html
    T19: http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...d_T19M_NH.html
    Go ahead and compare APM. Sure some classes are slower now but having over 60 APM is a bit too much.

    Azerite traits less interesting than static-no-choice-no-option-to-get-them-from-anywhere-but-raids tier sets Please

    Remind me? google yourself how much people were complaining in legion about "class redesign"
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/19892459371
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761076466
    https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17612071780

    BfA has definitely a more solid class design. Except balancing is garbage.

    Additionally legion had:
    1. No way to chose your weapon at all
    2. Had to farm AP for each spec separately
    3. Had to farm weapon-gems for each spec
    4. Had to farm legendaries from
    Emerald nightmare LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,
    The Nighthold LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,
    Tomb of Sargeras LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,
    Antorus, the Burning Throne LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,

    each week! Yeah good times. Definitely nobody complained about legendaries softcap

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And dont get me started about MoP when BM could like destroy you on arena with 1 button
    We are talking about normal classes, not abominations that didn't had a proper spec since the release in vanilla. But beside BM and some balancing issues, MoP was the peak of class design. Ok, there was something about WoD that was appealing too; and yes naturally i mean GLADIATOR STANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Since then classes never made that much fun ever again; since WoD began the class pruning and BfA peaked it. There was some pruning in Legion too, but masked because most of it was simply moved to the artefact weapon; and at the end of legion; *poof*; and everything is gone.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea how much azerite trait affects your rotation.
    Explosive Potential, Deadshot, Arcanic Pulsar, Lively Spirit and about 30 more spread in other classes.

    I dare to say, BfA has the most char customization WoW ever had.




    You are right, complains in legion got to LEGENDARY level, a shitstorm of 11/10 magnitude about: Legendaries, Camera changes and various other things. I havent seen so much complains anywhere else as on WoW forums when Legion was a thing.
    A bonus, 143 pages thread about camera: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748204616


    Oh please, MM with sidewinders, SV being a melee, dumbed down druid bala, unplayable warrior prot and many many others. You must have super short memory.
    And dont get me started about MoP when BM could like destroy you on arena with 1 button




    Gameplay got slower? Guess you don't have a good gear or you playing assa rogue with lowest APM. Now here is the facts:
    T22: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T22_Raid.html
    T19: http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...d_T19M_NH.html
    Go ahead and compare APM. Sure some classes are slower now but having over 60 APM is a bit too much.

    Azerite traits less interesting than static-no-choice-no-option-to-get-them-from-anywhere-but-raids tier sets Please

    Remind me? google yourself how much people were complaining in legion about "class redesign"
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/19892459371
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761076466
    https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17612071780

    BfA has definitely a more solid class design. Except balancing is garbage.

    Additionally legion had:
    1. No way to chose your weapon at all
    2. Had to farm AP for each spec separately
    3. Had to farm weapon-gems for each spec
    4. Had to farm legendaries from
    Emerald nightmare LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,
    The Nighthold LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,
    Tomb of Sargeras LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,
    Antorus, the Burning Throne LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic,

    each week! Yeah good times. Definitely nobody complained about legendaries softcap
    No "sweet child" listing 3 trait with no calculation or nothing about how them "change" the rotation.

    Don't works.


    You just vomited some BS, try better next time.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    No "sweet child" listing 3 trait with no calculation or nothing about how them "change" the rotation.

    Don't works.


    You just vomited some BS, try better next time.
    You can check it yourself:
    https://github.com/kaminaris/MaxDps-...Demonology.lua
    search for "azerite" and you will see how much azerite affects rotation
    or if you prefer simcraft style:
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...emonology.simc

    You can find other classes too and browse them yourself either on my repos:
    https://github.com/kaminaris?utf8=✓&q=Maxdps
    Or simcraft profiles:
    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...rofiles/Tier23

    I don't have to prove you anything since I wrote all of those modues, tested them and I know how azerite affects rotations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    We are talking about normal classes, not abominations that didn't had a proper spec since the release in vanilla. But beside BM and some balancing issues, MoP was the peak of class design. Ok, there was something about WoD that was appealing too; and yes naturally i mean GLADIATOR STANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Since then classes never made that much fun ever again; since WoD began the class pruning and BfA peaked it. There was some pruning in Legion too, but masked because most of it was simply moved to the artefact weapon; and at the end of legion; *poof*; and everything is gone.
    Pruning peaked at legion, but again, a lot of buttons =/= fun rotation
    Most of legion traits were just passives, some of them were moved to talents
    Now you have those traits in azerite gear

    MoP had a lot of class issues, a lot, like unused spells. Blizzard did it because they listened to feedback.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You can check it yourself:
    https://github.com/kaminaris/MaxDps-...Demonology.lua
    search for "azerite" and you will see how much azerite affects rotation
    That's not much at all. It's just two traits and the adjustments for each are pretty uninvolved.

    Compare with DK's Soul Reaper from LK vs the late version.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    It doesn't matter how many mechagnomes or naga they throw at us, how many dungeons or zones or raids or features they throw at us, all of it is completely pointless if our characters are not fun to play. Not a single word today about class changes planned for 8.2.

    If we have a look at the content patches of past expansions like MoP, they offered less raw patch content than the 8.2 patch but the content was enjoyable to repeat because the classes that we were doing the content with were fun and the content itself was fun. Slapping on a few essences and punch cards isn't going to get anywhere near repairing the foundations of these classes. As a result, I anticipate that 8.2 will be another unsuccessful patch. Blizzard has once again focused its resources in all the wrong areas.

    I can only hope that Blizzard learns a valuable lesson from how unsuccessful 8.2 will be and really focuses on class design moving forward in 9.0. They need to go back to basics, strip away the Heart of Azeroth, the Azerite traits, the punch cards and all the other gimmicks and get the foundations right. That is the only way that they will win players over at this point.
    Classes have been intentionally dumbed down into "I can press 3 buttons without macros and pick from 2 passives and 1 spell talent without help of 3rd party sites" state. Allowing players to deal with game without macros, addons and help of 3rd party guides - was real Blizzard's goal here right from start. And I'm not really sure, if it's good or bad change at the end. Yeah, pre-Legion mechanics looked better. Now it's overprune.
    We play RPG - not adventure and/or platformer, like Tomb Rider or Assassin's Creed.
    Blizzard should either remove features, that don't fit into RPG genre, or enable flying to avoid them for players, who don't like them.
    Flying - is like ability to turn PVP-flag off. It allows devs to design content purely for "PVPers" without risk of harming "PVEers".
    My perfect Wow.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    That's not much at all. It's just two traits and the adjustments for each are pretty uninvolved.

    Compare with DK's Soul Reaper from LK vs the late version.
    Yeah not much at all compared to ZERO from previous expacs. So much customization, just put on 4set and done, so much choice

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    I never understood how people think mop was the pinnacle of class design, like fuckin hell was it not balanced. Why bring melees when casters can do everythin like 10000x better, everytime i see QQ threads about class design its probably a warlock cryin that he aint top anymore smashin his face on keyboard, spamming instant spells and bein mobile like a melee.
    Warlocks are top by a wide margin. All their specs are ahead of every other pure spec and most of the hybrids, except casters like elemental shaman and shadow priest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    We're not talking numbers here, that's a completely different ballgame. But how it actually felt to play your class.... Most classes were a hell of a lot more FUN to play in mop (few exceptions, most people didn't like mop Balance Druid for example).
    If you're allergic to numbers, Fortnite might be a better fit for you than an RPG, which are about numbers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    They still spam a lot of instant spells... shit Fire mage today is more mobile then fire mage in mop.

    It's still besides the point... I'd take MoP fury over BfA fury any day.

    And good lord was MoP demo a lot more fun then "pet management simulator".
    Plays pet spec within pet class

    Complains about having to use a pet

    Pikachu
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    You can't even choose what weapon you want to use for many specs anymore.

    Who cares if it was sub-optimal.

    I also love how rohoz likes to claim that Glyphs didn't offer choice because you picked the best one yet Azerite traits somehow do?

    You want to bullshit on about the "illusion" of choice then you can't cherry pick which illusion is better than the other.
    Oh, have you hopped on PTR yet? At any point you can admit you were wrong about essences..... I'll wait.

    Also, the system back in MoP did not give you more choice than it does now, it was just a different kind of choice. I mean you could get a BiS item to drop for you, but you couldn't equip it until you hit certain thresholds with other pieces of gear or it would be a downgrade. There was something exciting and interesting about that, so if you enjoyed getting that item and praying to RNGesus for those threshold items to drop than great, I did too. I also enjoy being able to equip items based on situation that aren't just trinkets. While that was sometimes the case back in MoP, BC, WotLK, Cata, etc, it was rare that you would have completely different gear for raids, dungeons, etc. Usually you would just switch up your talent tree (a lot of times you didn't even do that), change a couple glyphs and off you went. Trinkets were the only main "choice" you had when going into a given situation.

    Whether you enjoyed that system more than system or not doesn't really matter though because both have their pros and cons. I for one would prefer this system as it gets more fleshed out. It has a higher potential to be rewarding (when they start getting rid of the endless RNG).

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Yeah not much at all compared to ZERO from previous expacs. So much customization, just put on 4set and done, so much choice
    What are you saying - that BFA added azerite traits where there was nothing before? Didn't we lose a lot of things that these azerite traits were aiming to replace? Those things we lost were influencing the rotation tons more than the azerite traits - and your example actually shows it clearly just how little azerite traits matter for the rotation. That 2p+4p bonus that you mention alone was bigger by a mile - by your own metric - and we lost more than just that.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    What are you saying - that BFA added azerite traits where there was nothing before? Didn't we lose a lot of things that these azerite traits were aiming to replace? Those things we lost were influencing the rotation tons more than the azerite traits - and your example actually shows it clearly just how little azerite traits matter for the rotation. That 2p+4p bonus that you mention alone was bigger by a mile - by your own metric - and we lost more than just that.
    azerite traits were aiming to replace tier sets.

    Sets were mandatory, you had no choice in what they do and hardly any tier changed rotation. Maybe 4-5 specs were affected.
    Now every spec is affected at least twice, and you have choice.

    Relic weapon? Might as well put that all in class passives, there was no choice, just forward.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    azerite traits were aiming to replace tier sets.

    Sets were mandatory, you had no choice in what they do and hardly any tier changed rotation. Maybe 4-5 specs were affected.
    Now every spec is affected at least twice, and you have choice.

    Relic weapon? Might as well put that all in class passives, there was no choice, just forward.
    Azerite traits replaced --- de-facto --- tier sets + artifacts + legendaries. You are talking about 2p+4p like everyone had it, but the most interesting period was always when you didn't have it or at least didn't have full BIS. You were juggling pieces to do 2p and sometimes it was better not to go for it even if you had it. Same for 4p. That was choice. And with legendaries the amount of choice was so much bigger than now, it is stupid to even compare. And I am going to ignore different relics with crucible, because I don't even need them to make my point handily.

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