Rogues should have Gouge

[Tarottie]

All Rogues should have poisons too.

[Naiattavain]

Yeah it just feels wrong. Can't wait to play classic again and get all my original Rogue love.

amen some good ol rogue loving. miss the poisons and ranged attacks.

[shoegazing]

All Rogues should have poisons too.

This is so obviously correct I still can't wrap my brain around how the design team ever failed to grasp it.

[Lodravel]

Yeah it just feels wrong. Can't wait to play classic again and get all my original Rogue love.

That, although I'll miss the mobility we have now. No Shadowstep, Stealth reducing you to turtle speed, Sprint with a 5min CD? Big sad.

Also, Faerie Fire is making a return. Not having CoS will make me remember why I hated druids!

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This is so obviously correct I still can't wrap my brain around how the design team ever failed to grasp it.

Also, you can't state opinions as a fact. I mean, you can, but it would be factually incorrect. :P
What I am trying to say, I don't give a rat's ass about poisons. If they come back, meh, and if they don't, meh. There's more important things they should return.

[sirethas]

In M+ I was using Gouge quite often when I played Outlaw since a lot of people slack on interupts and it gives you that extra time for Kick to come back from cd, I really hope some class wide abilities will come back to all specs

[shoegazing]

What I am trying to say, I don't give a rat's ass about poisons. If they come back, meh, and if they don't, meh. There's more important things they should return.

Crippling Poison and Shiv are of vital importance to hit and run Rogue gameplay. Bleed kiting, staying out of melee range while refilling energy, going for a restealth to get out stuns and a big Find Weakness opener. You can say that you don't care about it but that's coming from a place where you aren't appreciating how the pieces fit together to form the whole Rogue package.

And that is just the mechanical argument. What about so-called ClassFantasy? I refuse to accept the ridiculous notion that my Rogue after more than a decade simply forgot how to make and use Crippling Poison. No, I am not buying that at all. Without poisons, it doesn't even deserve to be called a Rogue.

[Lodravel]

Crippling Poison and Shiv are of vital importance to hit and run Rogue gameplay. Bleed kiting, staying out of melee range while refilling energy, going for a restealth to get out stuns and a big Find Weakness opener. You can say that you don't care about it but that's coming from a place where you aren't appreciating how the pieces fit together to form the whole Rogue package.

And that is just the mechanical argument. What about so-called ClassFantasy? I refuse to accept the ridiculous notion that my Rogue after more than a decade simply forgot how to make and use Crippling Poison. No, I am not buying that at all. Without poisons, it doesn't even deserve to be called a Rogue.

Shiv has been remodeled as a PvP talent, including the slow. The duration isn't quite as long as it used to be but I'd be fine if they added the ability back baseline.

I think we've talked about class fantasy already.

[delus]

This is so obviously correct I still can't wrap my brain around how the design team ever failed to grasp it.

Because they were chasing guild wars 2 at the time.

[shoegazing]

Shiv has been remodeled as a PvP talent, including the slow. The duration isn't quite as long as it used to be but I'd be fine if they added the ability back baseline.

I think we've talked about class fantasy already.

I am of course aware that Shiv is a PvP talent. It was originally just the slow, however they have also since added the enrage dispel back due to player feedback. Unfortunately, it is still effectively pruned since no one is choosing this talent when there are limited slots and more powerful choices available. It needs to be baseline.

About class fantasy, it seems that Blizzard agrees with me since Ion Hazzikostas admitted in his latest address the fact that they not only went too far with ability pruning, but also went too far in prioritizing spec fantasy over class fantasy (Rogue was one of the classes he specifically cited as an example), went too far in making each spec feel like a distinct class and didn't respect the fact that players signed up to play a CLASS first and foremost at the character selection screen so many years ago.

Now is the time for us to keep the pressure on.

[rohoz]

"I don't like being balanced so i'm going to scream at the top of my lungs until i get what i want" -thread

[shoegazing]

"I don't like being balanced so i'm going to scream at the top of my lungs until i get what i want" -thread

Are you implying that Rogues were imbalanced prior to the Legion pruning? Why then was Rogue the one class that never won the Blizzcon arena tournament?

Looking forward to seeing you back up your argument with data. This should be good.

[rohoz]

Are you implying that Rogues were imbalanced prior to the Legion pruning? Why then was Rogue the one class that never won the Blizzcon arena tournament?

Looking forward to seeing you back up your argument with data. This should be good.

Is one class having the ability to cc people for 10+ seconds unassisted with several different dr balanced?

Looking forward to seeing you cry about arenas like you always do.

[shoegazing]

Is one class having the ability to cc people for 10+ seconds unassisted with several different dr balanced?

Looking forward to seeing you cry about arenas like you always do.

Yes. Subtlety Rogue is a CC spec, that is the strength of the spec, it's been not only the strength of the spec but really its core identity in PvP since the very beginning.

Other specs have less CC but other forms of utility and greater damage throughput.

The pruning of Subtlety's CC is homogenization. It's making our strengths less and adding other strengths to replace them that we never should have gotten.

Also, if you had taken the effort to read the thread instead of vomiting useless words through your keyboard based on your emotional response, you'd understand that the proposal is to set Shadow Dance back to a 1min CD with no CDR and no charges.

If you seriously want to argue that Subtlety was broken when it was designed exactly the way I've described, I'd love to hear your argument. Again, please bring the data to back up that argument or else stop making useless posts

[Kaver]

Yes. Subtlety Rogue is a CC spec, that is the strength of the spec, it's been not only the strength of the spec but really its core identity in PvP since the very beginning.

Other specs have less CC but other forms of utility and greater damage throughput.

The pruning of Subtlety's CC is homogenization. It's making our strengths less and adding other strengths to replace them that we never should have gotten.

Also, if you had taken the effort to read the thread instead of vomiting useless words through your keyboard based on your emotional response, you'd understand that the proposal is to set Shadow Dance back to a 1min CD with no CDR and no charges.

If you seriously want to argue that Subtlety was broken when it was designed exactly the way I've described, I'd love to hear your argument. Again, please bring the data to back up that argument or else stop making useless posts

Dude you're discussing with a troll. He doesn't care. He just wants to stir shit. Pick your battles.

[shoegazing]

Dude you're discussing with a troll. He doesn't care. He just wants to stir shit. Pick your battles.

Fair enough. I'll stick to discussing with people who are a) arguing in good faith, and b) understand the history and historic identity of the class. It looks like rohoz is mad that they got ganked by a Rogue once, or didn't get invited to the M+ run, and just wants to cry about it.

[Lodravel]

Fair enough. I'll stick to discussing with people who are a) arguing in good faith, and b) understand the history and historic identity of the class

The question here is whether they even want to bethink themselves of the classes' roots. To ground the specs in a unified base is one thing, it's another to throw out much of what they've done over the past two expansions.

You maybe know my stance on this. I like the shadowy theme and I think it fits, all I am hoping for is a couple more buttons to press and perhaps a more complex rotation. That may well mean dialing back Shadow Dance in favor of other mechanics, though.

[Charge me Doctor]

amen some good ol rogue loving. miss the poisons and ranged attacks.

You'll miss being actually invisible, vanish bug not being a thing, short cooldowns, lack of mobility, lack of CoS.

Also be ready for sap getting you out of stealth, and energy ticks being a thing.

[Flurryfang]

I have played rogue for about 10 years. I really liked the feel of Gouge, it was a cool thing to use when i had to run away from PVP or to extend a CC rotation......BUT! It proberly has the same usage in actual content as Eye of the Beast for hunters.

It does nothing unique really, especially for rogues. Blind, Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot kinda have their role, but Gouge....Its just a smaller version of the other 3, a CC that just adds to the huge CC that rogues have, but its not core. Its not a thing that is identifying for the class and if i had to remove an ability from the core rogue arsenal in 2016, it would proberly have been my first choice.

So in a world where you HAVE to cut something from the kit, i would like to hear somebody defend it staying over so many other abilities.

[Lodravel]

So in a world where you HAVE to cut something from the kit, i would like to hear somebody defend it staying over so many other abilities.

Don't say that with shoegazing around, he'll hear you and come galopping on a noble steed to challenge you to a duel under the gods.

I'd argue the only area of the game where Gouge is not useful is raids. It serves as an interrupt and a brief moment of respite, you'll use your other CC in situations where you wouldn't use Gouge. Of course it is additional CC, though, as that is rather the point. CC is our jam.

[Flurryfang]

Don't say that with shoegazing around, he'll hear you and come galopping on a noble steed to challenge you to a duel under the gods.

I'd argue the only area of the game where Gouge is not useful is raids. It serves as an interrupt and a brief moment of respite, you'll use your other CC in situations where you wouldn't use Gouge. Of course it is additional CC, though, as that is rather the point. CC is our jam.

I can already see him come charging down the hill xD

I agree that it has use, like a lot of use, but we already have interrupts and abilities to give us a moment to flee or get back CDs. If we needed more CC i would agree, that it is a good addition to the base kit, but to be honest, i already think we have enough. I find Blind filling the spot of time-extender in PVP and gouge is something i would use only when Blind was off CD and in single combat.

Again, i would not mind it being there and if Blizzard thought that the toolkit of Rogues lacked CC, i would promote it being instated, but....Cheap Shot, Kidney shot and Blind just feels like enough really. Especially when we also have a pretty good kit in PVP for slows to give us more room.