Rogues should have Gouge

[Kaver]

Were you asleep when Ion Hazzikostas posted the big class design mea culpa and admitted that separating the specs so much was a mistake, that they shouldn't have taken iconic class abilities and made them spec specific?

Regarding utility, I have to note how sweetly ironic it is that after well over a decade of the PvE crowd ignoring utility while drooling on damage meters and "muh rotation", they finally appear to have woken up and noticed what makes gameplay actually fun and interesting.

I don't know why you're talking about Outlaw because I've made it clear that I don't give a damn about that aberration of a spec, and you're correct as well that I don't give a damn about dungeon racing, but the point is that all classes across the board should have their utility increased in the 9.0 unpruning.

My points were spec neutral. I only mentioned Outlaw because it is the spec that currently has Gouge. But the points themselves are completely independent of what spec they are attached to.

People are still "drooling on damage meters". If you read the current posts about Rogue in MDI you will find that people think that the Rogue spec is OP due to AOE and Shroud. Nobody is mentioning anything about the rest of the AMAZING toolkit that Outlaw possess.

My point in relation to you is, that Outlaw Rogue probably has a too good of a toolkit right now. If Gouge were applied to Subtlety for example, I would also think that the toolkit of Subtlety would be too good. I don't think that Subtlety will get Gouge back without losing something else in relation to CC. I don't think it would be good if Rogue as a whole got more CC.

[shoegazing]

My points were spec neutral. I only mentioned Outlaw because it is the spec that currently has Gouge. But the points themselves are completely independent of what spec they are attached to.

People are still "drooling on damage meters". If you read the current posts about Rogue in MDI you will find that people think that the Rogue spec is OP due to AOE and Shroud. Nobody is mentioning anything about the rest of the AMAZING toolkit that Outlaw possess.

My point in relation to you is, that Outlaw Rogue probably has a too good of a toolkit right now. If Gouge were applied to Subtlety for example, I would also think that the toolkit of Subtlety would be too good. I don't think that Subtlety will get Gouge back without losing something else in relation to CC. I don't think it would be good if Rogue as a whole got more CC.

Did you not read the thread?

The ask is for Shadow Dance to go back to 1min CD with no charges and no cooldown reduction, therefore less one dimensional Cheap Shot spam. Just revert Subtlety to how it was before Legion and BFA utterly ruined it. If this needs to be done via PvP talents so that other game modes aren't affected, then whatever, it's not ideal but I'll take it.

Do you feel that Subtlety was broken for over 10 years prior to Legion?

[Kaver]

Did you not read the thread?

The ask is for Shadow Dance to go back to 1min CD with no charges and no cooldown reduction, therefore less one dimensional Cheap Shot spam. Just revert Subtlety to how it was before Legion and BFA utterly ruined it. If this needs to be done via PvP talents so that other game modes aren't affected, then whatever, it's not ideal but I'll take it.

Do you feel that Subtlety was broken for over 10 years prior to Legion?

I like that shadow dance currently is a trade off between damage and control. If you choose to use cheap shot you will lose dps as a trade off. I don't see Gouge as a more advanced ability compared to what you call a "cheap shot spam".

I think that some older rogue players have been a little bit spoiled due to the toolkit of the past which might have been a little bit overpowered at points.

[shoegazing]

I like that shadow dance currently is a trade off between damage and control. If you choose to use cheap shot you will lose dps as a trade off. I don't see Gouge as a more advanced ability compared to what you call a "cheap shot spam".

I think that some older rogue players have been a little bit spoiled due to the toolkit of the past which might have been a little bit overpowered at points.

Gouge costs energy as well, so it's also a trade off between control and damage. It breaks on damage so care has to be taken when using it. It has a facing requirement so it increases the effort that has to be put into movement, and allows other players to read your intentions based on your movement. It shares DRs with Polymorph, so the change I am requesting is a net nerf to dominant Rogue/Mage compositions and a buff to other Rogue compositions that barely get played anymore.

I've personally played Shadow Priest, Affliction, Balance, and Resto Druid to 2.2k+ (with far less effort than it took to get there as a Rogue I might add, although I won't deny that learning to heal was a different kind of challenge) so I'm not going to be very sympathetic to arguments that I'm spoiled as an older Rogue player and don't have any concept of how hard other classes have it. Yes Subtlety has been very strong at times and yet there have been patches where it had the exact same toolkit and didn't even seem to exist on the ladders.

[mvpness]

no they should not

[Varolyn]

no they should not

Yes they should.

[RobertoCarlos]

i'll be leveling a rogue in vanilla in 6 days. Which has gouge. For all 3 specs! What a thought.

Cant wait

[Justpassing]

Rather have the swirly ball.

[RobertoCarlos]

Rather have the swirly ball.

You talking about cold blood?

Cold blood was a fantastic talent.

But what is another crit in current WoW? Barely anything among the DR meat shields of live where everyone has a million self heals/defensives.

The game has moved on to a point the skill is barely relevant.

[ymirsson]

You talking about cold blood?

Detect Traps.

Do you even rogue?

[shoegazing]

Rather have the swirly ball.

Boy have I got good news for you:

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=56814/detection

This should be a lesson that when we come together and stand up for our class, good things eventually happen.

Swirly Ball was the original anti-prune movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUeMoaTzghU

[Tarba]

Were you asleep when Ion Hazzikostas posted the big class design mea culpa and admitted that separating the specs so much was a mistake, that they shouldn't have taken iconic class abilities and made them spec specific?

Regarding utility, I have to note how sweetly ironic it is that after well over a decade of the PvE crowd ignoring utility while drooling on damage meters and "muh rotation", they finally appear to have woken up and noticed what makes gameplay actually fun and interesting.

I don't know why you're talking about Outlaw because I've made it clear that I don't give a damn about that aberration of a spec, and you're correct as well that I don't give a damn about dungeon racing, but the point is that all classes across the board should have their utility increased in the 9.0 unpruning.

Because from wotlk to legion m+ (and a bit in some occasion in challenge mode or very rare raid encounters) anything else than dps metter was useless in every pve content.
Wotlk was a plague.

[shoegazing]

Because from wotlk to legion m+ (and a bit in some occasion in challenge mode or very rare raid encounters) anything else than dps metter was useless in every pve content.
Wotlk was a plague.

Why should class design suffer for a content design problem?

I cannot suffer those ignorant fools who say "Gouge isn't that useful, it can stay gone." Do these half-wits even play Rogue?