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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    Because Gouge was a part of the "COMBAT" abilities side of the book. So it makes sense that outlaw has the Gouge nowadays.
    I signed up to play ROGUE when I created my character

    Not shadow weeaboo

    Not poison deathknight

    And not fucking yahtzee pirate

    I signed up to play ROGUE.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I signed up to play ROGUE when I created my character

    Not shadow weeaboo

    Not poison deathknight

    And not fucking yahtzee pirate

    I signed up to play ROGUE.
    The game has change a lot since you signed up.

    Gouge is a very powerful ability, and sadly I think we will see the toolkit of Rogues be nerfed even more in the future. They already did changes to feint but I wouldn't be surprised if they made it a 45 sec CD at some point.

    Blizzard thinks that Outlaw is strong in MDI/M+ because of their AOE, but in reality it is because of:

    - 15 sec cd interrupt
    - 15 sec cd gouge
    - 15 sec cd feint
    - 10 sec 100 % parry (almost an immunity to physical damage)
    - cloak (immunity to magic damage)
    - cheat death (essentially a free combat ress)
    - shroud
    - blind
    - vanish (out of combat free card)
    - tricks (all threat to the tanks. Really usefull ability in M+)

    THIS IS WHY people play 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI. Not the AOE.

    Even if they removed shroud, Rogue would still have by far the best toolkit in the game.

    ps. I know you don't care about pve but blizzard have a hard time seperating pve and pvp.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-08-12 at 06:56 AM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The game has change a lot since you signed up.

    Gouge is a very powerful ability, and sadly I think we will see the toolkit of Rogues be nerfed even more in the future. They already did changes to feint but I wouldn't be surprised if they made it a 45 sec CD at some point.

    Blizzard thinks that Outlaw is strong in MDI/M+ because of their AOE, but in reality it is because of:

    - 15 sec cd interrupt
    - 15 sec cd gouge
    - 15 sec cd feint
    - 10 sec 100 % parry (almost an immunity to physical damage)
    - cloak (immunity to magic damage)
    - cheat death (essentially a free combat ress)
    - shroud
    - blind
    - vanish (out of combat free card)
    - tricks (all threat to the tanks. Really usefull ability in M+)

    THIS IS WHY people play 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI. Not the AOE.

    Even if they removed shroud, Rogue would still have by far the best toolkit in the game.

    ps. I know you don't care about pve but blizzard have a hard time seperating pve and pvp.
    Were you asleep when Ion Hazzikostas posted the big class design mea culpa and admitted that separating the specs so much was a mistake, that they shouldn't have taken iconic class abilities and made them spec specific?

    Regarding utility, I have to note how sweetly ironic it is that after well over a decade of the PvE crowd ignoring utility while drooling on damage meters and "muh rotation", they finally appear to have woken up and noticed what makes gameplay actually fun and interesting.

    I don't know why you're talking about Outlaw because I've made it clear that I don't give a damn about that aberration of a spec, and you're correct as well that I don't give a damn about dungeon racing, but the point is that all classes across the board should have their utility increased in the 9.0 unpruning.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Were you asleep when Ion Hazzikostas posted the big class design mea culpa and admitted that separating the specs so much was a mistake, that they shouldn't have taken iconic class abilities and made them spec specific?

    Regarding utility, I have to note how sweetly ironic it is that after well over a decade of the PvE crowd ignoring utility while drooling on damage meters and "muh rotation", they finally appear to have woken up and noticed what makes gameplay actually fun and interesting.

    I don't know why you're talking about Outlaw because I've made it clear that I don't give a damn about that aberration of a spec, and you're correct as well that I don't give a damn about dungeon racing, but the point is that all classes across the board should have their utility increased in the 9.0 unpruning.
    My points were spec neutral. I only mentioned Outlaw because it is the spec that currently has Gouge. But the points themselves are completely independent of what spec they are attached to.

    People are still "drooling on damage meters". If you read the current posts about Rogue in MDI you will find that people think that the Rogue spec is OP due to AOE and Shroud. Nobody is mentioning anything about the rest of the AMAZING toolkit that Outlaw possess.

    My point in relation to you is, that Outlaw Rogue probably has a too good of a toolkit right now. If Gouge were applied to Subtlety for example, I would also think that the toolkit of Subtlety would be too good. I don't think that Subtlety will get Gouge back without losing something else in relation to CC. I don't think it would be good if Rogue as a whole got more CC.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-08-12 at 01:18 PM.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    My points were spec neutral. I only mentioned Outlaw because it is the spec that currently has Gouge. But the points themselves are completely independent of what spec they are attached to.

    People are still "drooling on damage meters". If you read the current posts about Rogue in MDI you will find that people think that the Rogue spec is OP due to AOE and Shroud. Nobody is mentioning anything about the rest of the AMAZING toolkit that Outlaw possess.

    My point in relation to you is, that Outlaw Rogue probably has a too good of a toolkit right now. If Gouge were applied to Subtlety for example, I would also think that the toolkit of Subtlety would be too good. I don't think that Subtlety will get Gouge back without losing something else in relation to CC. I don't think it would be good if Rogue as a whole got more CC.
    Did you not read the thread?

    The ask is for Shadow Dance to go back to 1min CD with no charges and no cooldown reduction, therefore less one dimensional Cheap Shot spam. Just revert Subtlety to how it was before Legion and BFA utterly ruined it. If this needs to be done via PvP talents so that other game modes aren't affected, then whatever, it's not ideal but I'll take it.

    Do you feel that Subtlety was broken for over 10 years prior to Legion?
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Did you not read the thread?

    The ask is for Shadow Dance to go back to 1min CD with no charges and no cooldown reduction, therefore less one dimensional Cheap Shot spam. Just revert Subtlety to how it was before Legion and BFA utterly ruined it. If this needs to be done via PvP talents so that other game modes aren't affected, then whatever, it's not ideal but I'll take it.

    Do you feel that Subtlety was broken for over 10 years prior to Legion?
    I like that shadow dance currently is a trade off between damage and control. If you choose to use cheap shot you will lose dps as a trade off. I don't see Gouge as a more advanced ability compared to what you call a "cheap shot spam".

    I think that some older rogue players have been a little bit spoiled due to the toolkit of the past which might have been a little bit overpowered at points.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I like that shadow dance currently is a trade off between damage and control. If you choose to use cheap shot you will lose dps as a trade off. I don't see Gouge as a more advanced ability compared to what you call a "cheap shot spam".

    I think that some older rogue players have been a little bit spoiled due to the toolkit of the past which might have been a little bit overpowered at points.
    Gouge costs energy as well, so it's also a trade off between control and damage. It breaks on damage so care has to be taken when using it. It has a facing requirement so it increases the effort that has to be put into movement, and allows other players to read your intentions based on your movement. It shares DRs with Polymorph, so the change I am requesting is a net nerf to dominant Rogue/Mage compositions and a buff to other Rogue compositions that barely get played anymore.

    I've personally played Shadow Priest, Affliction, Balance, and Resto Druid to 2.2k+ (with far less effort than it took to get there as a Rogue I might add, although I won't deny that learning to heal was a different kind of challenge) so I'm not going to be very sympathetic to arguments that I'm spoiled as an older Rogue player and don't have any concept of how hard other classes have it. Yes Subtlety has been very strong at times and yet there have been patches where it had the exact same toolkit and didn't even seem to exist on the ladders.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2019-08-12 at 01:49 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

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