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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    Well in multiple posts you're arguing about whether shadow should be nerfed
    This is false, I never once argued that Shadow shouldn't be nerfed. I stated that I doubted they would be nerfed a second time within a week(which has been proven true).

    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    heroic logs is also made in context of shadow's performance so it is very much relevant.
    Heroic logs are never relevant. They are never accurate. They are never forthcoming. They're riddled with people ignoring mechanics that they can't ignore in Mythic so that they can perform better.

    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    The boss HP tuning/enrage timer is perfect, maybe a little bit too forgiving.
    As someone else already pointed out, you're insane if you think that 8:30 minute enrage on a fight that has more health than Jaina is "perfect" and "forgiving". Obviously Blizzard disagreed with you too, as they increased the enrage timer.

    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    You don't even have to play the damage buff 100% correctly and you'll still meet the dps check.
    Except you did, and you had to class stack to even reach enrage. That was a common problem with many guilds progressing last week, they were hitting enrage, with near perfect play and had to swap more classes out to fit in the stronger classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    In a week or two when lower end guilds get to killing the boss you'll see less optimal comps.
    Ya now that they nerfed the boss
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Personally I have a really big problem with the mentally or releasing a very hard boss and then slowly nerfing it over time. As a player it gives me the feeling that the best strategy is to wait and not to play.
    So either make them VERY difficult and DON'T nerf them or give them the intended difficulty right away.
    I am only raiding mythic, I am not in a top 500 guild or anything, but I also have no intentions of ever joining one or even trying to, simply because it makes more sense to wait.
    Honestly, I'm seeing this mentality a LOT from the raiders I know that used to hardcore progression. Even now, I know some guilds that are waiting to really push Jaina, as they expect a week or two before the next major patch Blizz will blanket-nerf the boss to "help" people get their CE achievements. With respect to Crucible, these same people are of the mind that CE for Crucible will still be available until the end of the Azshara raid, so why both pushing hard now since you'll basically get gear catch-up (and Essences) to make it super easy later? Of all my friends that have quit WoW that were former hardcore progression people, they've just grown frustrated that it feels like every raid/patch cycle is like what the transition of Classic -> BC felt like: everything you worked for was immediately trivial to meaningless.

    Do I feel this way? Yes and no, I'm more frustrated with that much of the harder mythic raiding content is tuned to "one person screws up, it's not recoverable or worth trying to recover," as well as some other technical aspects of raiding in general. However, I've found it MUCH harder to recruit nowadays, because of the mentality described above, where the effort feels pointless much faster in today's WoW.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Honestly, I'm seeing this mentality a LOT from the raiders I know that used to hardcore progression.
    Putting effort into the game requires maintaining the illusion that what you're doing in the game is important. Of course, it isn't important, it's just fictional entertainment. So the moment the illusion breaks, and you notice you aren't being entertained, the motivation to put in effort collapses.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Honestly, I'm seeing this mentality a LOT from the raiders I know that used to hardcore progression. Even now, I know some guilds that are waiting to really push Jaina, as they expect a week or two before the next major patch Blizz will blanket-nerf the boss to "help" people get their CE achievements. With respect to Crucible, these same people are of the mind that CE for Crucible will still be available until the end of the Azshara raid, so why both pushing hard now since you'll basically get gear catch-up (and Essences) to make it super easy later? Of all my friends that have quit WoW that were former hardcore progression people, they've just grown frustrated that it feels like every raid/patch cycle is like what the transition of Classic -> BC felt like: everything you worked for was immediately trivial to meaningless.

    Do I feel this way? Yes and no, I'm more frustrated with that much of the harder mythic raiding content is tuned to "one person screws up, it's not recoverable or worth trying to recover," as well as some other technical aspects of raiding in general. However, I've found it MUCH harder to recruit nowadays, because of the mentality described above, where the effort feels pointless much faster in today's WoW.
    this is why when you start a leet guild you name it <pre nerf kill> then all the scrubs know your a TRUE raider

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    This is false, I never once argued that Shadow shouldn't be nerfed. I stated that I doubted they would be nerfed a second time within a week(which has been proven true).



    Heroic logs are never relevant. They are never accurate. They are never forthcoming. They're riddled with people ignoring mechanics that they can't ignore in Mythic so that they can perform better.



    As someone else already pointed out, you're insane if you think that 8:30 minute enrage on a fight that has more health than Jaina is "perfect" and "forgiving". Obviously Blizzard disagreed with you too, as they increased the enrage timer.



    Except you did, and you had to class stack to even reach enrage. That was a common problem with many guilds progressing last week, they were hitting enrage, with near perfect play and had to swap more classes out to fit in the stronger classes.



    Ya now that they nerfed the boss
    Ok then, it's pointless arguing with you because it's obvious you haven't even pulled the boss, you're just repeating whatever you read on mmoc or other fan sites. Not every boss should be killable by the average raider on the first reset. It's not Blizzard "agreeing" with anything, it's the casual gimme gimme players who force them to nerf bosses. Cabal was nerfed yesterday btw, at which point there was already ~45 kills.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Poe View Post
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=291143/...mbalance-cruci

    How do majority of cutting edge guilds feel about spending another many weeks on another raid ? If your guild is 8/9 on Jaina and hasn't killed it yet, how will you feel about having another boss to progress on directly after killing Jaina that will likely eat up just as much time. And in conclusion how do you this raid will do in the world race, another week 1 clear ?
    I think it's fine. Just pretend that those two bosses are part of BoD. However long it takes to kill a hard boss (like Jaina) doesn't matter, just go and fight the next boss.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Personally I have a really big problem with the mentally or releasing a very hard boss and then slowly nerfing it over time. As a player it gives me the feeling that the best strategy is to wait and not to play.
    So either make them VERY difficult and DON'T nerf them or give them the intended difficulty right away.
    I am only raiding mythic, I am not in a top 500 guild or anything, but I also have no intentions of ever joining one or even trying to, simply because it makes more sense to wait.
    It's the same issue throughout the entire game. Want quick AP? Wait for AK. Want quick gear? Wait till they buff it. It's doing a lot of long term damage to the game.

  8. #188
    so for 8/9 guilds whats better to start Jaina or Restless Cabal?

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    so for 8/9 guilds whats better to start Jaina or Restless Cabal?
    Assuming Cabal doesn't get another nerf soon, Jaina is clear winner. She allows you far more class freedom than current Cabal. You only really "need" Resto Shaman, and even that's not strictly necessary. Also, that cutting edge is going away with 8.2 (or raid), so you don't have that much time.

    Cabal? You better ditch most of your melee or it will be even harder than her. Unless you have ton of geared ranged alts - which I really doubt at 8/9 - it's not really worth the hassle. There's zero chance of you getting Uu'nat without massive nerfs, the Cabal gear is hardly an improvement and that Cutting Edge will still be there for a while. It's like Helya on crack - and she was harder than half of Nighthold bosses even when fully outgeared and nerfed.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    so for 8/9 guilds whats better to start Jaina or Restless Cabal?
    Jaina. /10
    Whaleshark /spits on your science.

  11. #191
    every single guild that kill Restless Cabal already use several times less tries then on Jaina. Restless Cabal is easy to understand fight compared to Jaina. Its just overtuned heroic. i understand that after several month of farming Jaina you think that its easy figth but are you sure that it’s really easier not because all of you have 700 wipes on Jaina and 15kills compared to 100 wipes/ 1 kill on Restless Cabal and its unbiased conclusion?

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    every single guild that kill Restless Cabal already use several times less tries then on Jaina. Restless Cabal is easy to understand fight compared to Jaina. Its just overtuned heroic. i understand that after several month of farming Jaina you think that its easy figth but are you sure that it’s really easier not because all of you have 700 wipes on Jaina and 15kills compared to 100 wipes/ 1 kill on Restless Cabal and its unbiased conclusion?
    I mean, you're free to try it yourself. Don't stack your raid with Shadow Priests, don't bench your melee, bring your usual team. There is a possibility that you will pull some crazy numbers and crush the boss easily. It's really doubtful, all the kills were made by 9/9M guilds (and some odd 8/9 that was basically a reformed 9/9 I think?).

    But even assuming you do get it, Uu'nat is way harder than Jaina. Really, what's the point, go there, *maybe* kill Cabal and then be destroyed?

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    so for 8/9 guilds whats better to start Jaina or Restless Cabal?
    There is no reason at all to go CoS in its current state. Jaina is easier, has way better rewards, it's not mandatory to class stack AND her CE is going away.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    But even assuming you do get it, Uu'nat is way harder than Jaina. Really, what's the point, go there, *maybe* kill Cabal and then be destroyed?
    the point is “better to kill something then nothing”... i prefer to kill Restless Cabal 2-3 times before 8.2 then have several low% wipes on Jaina without kill...

  15. #195
    The Unstoppable Force Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    It's the same issue throughout the entire game. Want quick AP? Wait for AK. Want quick gear? Wait till they buff it. It's doing a lot of long term damage to the game.
    People with that kind of mentality always existed.

    Stands to reason that they first and foremost design the game with the assumption that people want to play, then make way for the slackers. And sorry, but you have absolutely no idea or data to support such a grand statement as it doing long term damage to the game.

    An expansion able to keep 5+ million players for 14 months of drought had a ton of catch-up and easier progress for returning players. They have data, randoms on a forum don't.

    The only thing proven to damage the game as we could see it in black and white, was a lack of content delivered.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2019-05-03 at 11:51 PM.
    Classic WoW is 10% gameplay and 90% talking about "how much better it is than Retail WoW" in in-game chats, Youtube Videos, Twitch or ALL the forums.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    the point is “better to kill something then nothing”... i prefer to kill Restless Cabal 2-3 times before 8.2 then have several low% wipes on Jaina without kill...
    Jaina drops a mount though, and it will be there in 8.2 as well, so progress made on Jaina won't be wasted even if it extends into 8.2 (I expect Azshara raid not opening insta with the patch, same as BODA was delayed around 6 weeks after 8.1).

    Jaina also doesn't have super strict comp requirements, warlocks / priests / shamans help in a way, but aren't anywhere as close to necessary as in CoS.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    You only really "need" Resto Shaman, and even that's not strictly necessary.
    Indeed. I remember checking logs before my guild killed it and there was a no resto shaman kill (this is pre 8.1.5 btw that's why demo locks etc.)
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...7&type=summary

  17. #197
    What they should do is simple and quite crazzy but imo if you didnt kill mythic Jaina you cant move to the next raid on Mythic difficulty "attunament" style think it can be a nice thing to do.
    The only thing that i find really really bad atm is the face that the raid gear isnt anything sepcial you can get same or even better gear in Mythic+ in less time so not sure why you'd kill yourself with 900 wipes on a boss when its not nerfed yet.
    wait for a month and then go clear it to get the mount

    If there was a special Tier set to loot from the raids it would be a different story and make it more attractive.
    Raiding is technically a side activity now , if you want gear and to be ready to raid you need to push M+ to +12/13/14/15

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by PavelGolub View Post
    The only thing that i find really really bad atm is the face that the raid gear isnt anything sepcial you can get same or even better gear in Mythic+ in less time so not sure why you'd kill yourself with 900 wipes on a boss when its not nerfed yet.
    wait for a month and then go clear it to get the mount
    What's the point of gear after you've cleared the current content on mythic? Do you think any guild is progressing on Uu'nat for a chance to get a few upgrades? Gear can be the motivation for super casuals to do heroic or something but for most players gearing is just a necessary tool to kill the bosses.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    What's the point of gear after you've cleared the current content on mythic?
    It used to be a good way to prep for next raid unless it was the last patch of the expansion. But nowadays (since Antorus I believe) every raid is a full gear reset. Which is a shame, as it lowers the incentive to stay and refarm the content for titanforges and whatnot, btw wasn't that supposed to be the initial reason to implement titanforge, to give people more incentive to keep raiding after it's "on farm"? In that case they shot themselves in the foot with this design.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    It used to be a good way to prep for next raid unless it was the last patch of the expansion. But nowadays (since Antorus I believe) every raid is a full gear reset. Which is a shame, as it lowers the incentive to stay and refarm the content for titanforges and whatnot, btw wasn't that supposed to be the initial reason to implement titanforge, to give people more incentive to keep raiding after it's "on farm"? In that case they shot themselves in the foot with this design.
    Titanforging was simply a way to keep MAU's steady as casuals collected boar poop for a chance at raid quality gear.

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