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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Uunat is a mini-tier, it should not be as hard as jaina, esp if you want non-top end guilds to clear it. A lot of people will be in the situation we're halfway through BoD, and H is useless but M is too hard, so we don't do a brand new raid because of it, it should have its on tier of ilvl, not just a few ilvl higher.
    I mean look at Helya, the average guild didn't kill Mythic Helya until after Nighthold came out which was months later. I expect something similar, where Cutting Edge for Crucible will not be linked to the ending of Dazar'alor, but rather the ending of Eternal Palace.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    I mean look at Helya, the average guild didn't kill Mythic Helya until after Nighthold came out which was months later. I expect something similar, where Cutting Edge for Crucible will not be linked to the ending of Dazar'alor, but rather the ending of Eternal Palace.
    Yeah if cutting edge for Crucible goes away with Azshara that's just silly.

    The shortest cutting edge achievements before this were six months or so? That would be three months.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Mythic Raid difficulty is very overtuned this tier especially last few bosses. Blizzard should roll out huge across the board nerfs to fix this crap.
    Wat. Every other boss than Jaina was under 50 pulls, with only Mekka and Stormwall requiring more than 20, unless your guild derped like mine and required a few more for a specific boss (hello opulence). This tier was so easy that you saw 40 guilds progressing on Jaina in the *first reset*. There was less than 10 doing G'huun in the first reset of Uldir, and less than 20 doing Argus the first reset.

    The *only* difficulty in BFD was loaded into Jaina, and the encounter was tuned so badly that a strategy they never intended for (keeping the elemental alive and burning boss) was the only viable way to kill the encounter.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Wat. Every other boss than Jaina was under 50 pulls, with only Mekka and Stormwall requiring more than 20, unless your guild derped like mine and required a few more for a specific boss (hello opulence). This tier was so easy that you saw 40 guilds progressing on Jaina in the *first reset*. There was less than 10 doing G'huun in the first reset of Uldir, and less than 20 doing Argus the first reset.

    The *only* difficulty in BFD was loaded into Jaina, and the encounter was tuned so badly that a strategy they never intended for (keeping the elemental alive and burning boss) was the only viable way to kill the encounter.
    To be fair, Fetid Devourer was fairly broken for a bit. And there were twice as many G'huun kills at this point in Uldir as there are Jaina kills now.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Wat. Every other boss than Jaina was under 50 pulls, with only Mekka and Stormwall requiring more than 20, unless your guild derped like mine and required a few more for a specific boss (hello opulence). This tier was so easy that you saw 40 guilds progressing on Jaina in the *first reset*. There was less than 10 doing G'huun in the first reset of Uldir, and less than 20 doing Argus the first reset.

    The *only* difficulty in BFD was loaded into Jaina, and the encounter was tuned so badly that a strategy they never intended for (keeping the elemental alive and burning boss) was the only viable way to kill the encounter.
    Ehhh that's a bit of an exaggeration. Several guilds in the top 100 wiped way more than 50 times on Mekka and Blockade. I'd say for the average guild, once you got past the easy first 3, it was ~50 wipes a boss then 100ish for Mekka and Blockade, followed by 200-300 for Jaina(which most of her shit is RNG with Icefalls in the last phase), I can't tell you how many 6-10% wipes my guild had on progression just because of an Icefall that Jaina wouldn't move out of and just kept spam casting inside of it so half the DPS couldn't hit her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Yeah if cutting edge for Crucible goes away with Azshara that's just silly.

    The shortest cutting edge achievements before this were six months or so? That would be three months.
    I think the shortest Cutting Edge was Emerald Nightmare at 4 months.
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  6. #26
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    We’re like 170 pulls deep on jaina and still have never made it cleanly to phase 2 so hell if i even care to do cos

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    To be fair, Fetid Devourer was fairly broken for a bit. And there were twice as many G'huun kills at this point in Uldir as there are Jaina kills now.
    Sure, but even then, the progression of difficulty (outside of Zul being a 10-pull boss due to rogue cheese) was fairly easy to see. First 2 was gimmies, Zek'voz took ~10-20, Vectis took ~20-30, fetid took ~50-70, Zul was a fucking fluke, and mythrax took ~70-100 with G'huun being +100.

    This time around it was like: Champion, Grong, JFM: Gimmies at sub-10 pulls. Opulence: 10-25, Conclave: 10-25, Rasta: 10-25 (partly due to the door-strat cheese though), Mekka: 30-50, Stormwall: 30-50 (again, cheese allowed for this; We had to spend as many pulls on our rekill when it was fixed as we did on our first because suddenly people were dying in P1).


    Ehhh that's a bit of an exaggeration. Several guilds in the top 100 wiped way more than 50 times on Mekka and Blockade. I'd say for the average guild, once you got past the easy first 3, it was ~50 wipes a boss then 100ish for Mekka and Blockade, followed by 200-300 for Jaina(which most of her shit is RNG with Icefalls in the last phase), I can't tell you how many 6-10% wipes my guild had on progression just because of an Icefall that Jaina wouldn't move out of and just kept spam casting inside of it so half the DPS couldn't hit her.
    To be fair, the "top 100" guilds that did that were also the ones that threw more and more hours at the content because they saw how quickly it was getting cleared. It's very hard to define a "top 100" guild because amongst them are ones like Security that took under 150 pulls to kill Jaina, and my own that took 350, so the spread is clearly pretty fucking big, and there was indeed "top 100" guilds that spent over 100 wipes on Mekka, but those are the "top 100" guilds that everyone else low-key makes fun of for trying to brute-force encounters down rather than actually playing well.

    That being said, I shouldn't use "top 100" as the definer for what a standard, high end guild that did well this tier would have, pull-wise. I should probably just say "good guild", but that triggers other people even more.

    Either way, the difficulty step-up through the raid was almost non-existant. But realise that if you say stuff like Rasta and Conclave took ~50 pulls, and then mekka/stormwall took 100, that's roughly the same relative difficulty as I am using above (~10-25 -> 30-50, and 50->100) - roughly twice as many pulls spent on those two bosses as the previous. It's possible we have the same sense of the difficulty curve, but the guilds I follow/interact/play with just kills stuff a lot quicker, but at the same relative pace.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    I think the shortest Cutting Edge was Emerald Nightmare at 4 months.
    To be fair, Emerald Nightmare is also the easiest mythic raid ever released.

    Jaina alone probably takes most guilds double the pull count of the entirety of Emerald Nightmare.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post

    To be fair, the "top 100" guilds that did that were also the ones that threw more and more hours at the content because they saw how quickly it was getting cleared. It's very hard to define a "top 100" guild because amongst them are ones like Security that took under 150 pulls to kill Jaina, and my own that took 350, so the spread is clearly pretty fucking big, and there was indeed "top 100" guilds that spent over 100 wipes on Mekka, but those are the "top 100" guilds that everyone else low-key makes fun of for trying to brute-force encounters down rather than actually playing well.

    That being said, I shouldn't use "top 100" as the definer for what a standard, high end guild that did well this tier would have, pull-wise. I should probably just say "good guild", but that triggers other people even more.

    Either way, the difficulty step-up through the raid was almost non-existant. But realise that if you say stuff like Rasta and Conclave took ~50 pulls, and then mekka/stormwall took 100, that's roughly the same relative difficulty as I am using above (~10-25 -> 30-50, and 50->100) - roughly twice as many pulls spent on those two bosses as the previous. It's possible we have the same sense of the difficulty curve, but the guilds I follow/interact/play with just kills stuff a lot quicker, but at the same relative pace.
    Pulls is a bit silly to compare and always was.

    Its irrelevant if some guild did 150 pulls but all their raid average item level is 420 because they are active and farming M+24/7 and they have 20 players with 2k raider.io (Just example of activity, irrelevant for the discussion).

    And some other guild got her at 300 pulls with 9h/week + random extra day and average item level of 411-414 but as the majority of guilds after the top its mostly 5-10 active/better players, and 10 leechers that only do 1 M+10 per week and log off if there is no raid.

    Too many variables to compare, thats why no one cares past the first few kills and the top 10-20, cause its simply irrelevant.

    Its the same logic with pugging and casual raiding.

    Only the more active, previous Mythic tier/high M+ groups actually go far the first couple of weeks into the raiding tier by carrying a few friends/people that pug, but 2 months after most of the groups, even the terrible ones are "ZERG FIRST 3 AND WE SEE AFTER".
    Last edited by potis; 2019-04-13 at 03:45 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Pulls is a bit silly to compare and always was.

    Its irrelevant if some guild did 150 pulls but all their raid average item level is 420 because they are active and farming M+24/7 and they have 20 players with 2k raider.io (Just example of activity, irrelevant for the discussion).

    And some other guild got her at 300 pulls with 9h/week + random extra day and average item level of 411-414 but as the majority of guilds after the top its mostly 5-10 active/better players, and 10 leechers that only do 1 M+10 per week and log off if there is no raid.

    Too many variables to compare, thats why no one cares past the first few kills and the top 10-20, cause its simply irrelevant.

    Its the same logic with pugging and casual raiding.

    Only the more active, previous Mythic tier/high M+ groups actually go far the first couple of weeks into the raiding tier by carrying a few friends/people that pug, but 2 months after most of the groups, even the terrible ones are "ZERG FIRST 3 AND WE SEE AFTER".
    Right, which is why I used "top 100" guild to clarify that all of the guilds I keep track of are actually "serious" about raiding, and puts in effort, and has raiders at a relatively high level (EG, carrying very little dead weight, if any). There's still variance within there, but it means your examples aren't super relevant to my point; You can assume all guilds in the top 100 are of the "active and does whatever they can for an advantage"-variant.

  11. #31
    Well,i hope it wont be like legion with trial of valor huge spike but in the same ''tier'',the difference was simply crazy,even heroic odyn felt harder than most mythic bosses in EN,and myth helya was by far harder than pretty much any other boss exept kiljaeden,and no i dont count bosses like star augur or maiden as harder even if we had more wipes on them lol

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post

    To be fair, the "top 100" guilds that did that were also the ones that threw more and more hours at the content because they saw how quickly it was getting cleared. It's very hard to define a "top 100" guild because amongst them are ones like Security that took under 150 pulls to kill Jaina, and my own that took 350, so the spread is clearly pretty fucking big, and there was indeed "top 100" guilds that spent over 100 wipes on Mekka, but those are the "top 100" guilds that everyone else low-key makes fun of for trying to brute-force encounters down rather than actually playing well.

    That being said, I shouldn't use "top 100" as the definer for what a standard, high end guild that did well this tier would have, pull-wise. I should probably just say "good guild", but that triggers other people even more.

    Either way, the difficulty step-up through the raid was almost non-existant. But realise that if you say stuff like Rasta and Conclave took ~50 pulls, and then mekka/stormwall took 100, that's roughly the same relative difficulty as I am using above (~10-25 -> 30-50, and 50->100) - roughly twice as many pulls spent on those two bosses as the previous. It's possible we have the same sense of the difficulty curve, but the guilds I follow/interact/play with just kills stuff a lot quicker, but at the same relative pace.
    Any guild in that's top 100 is a good guild, regardless of what your egotistical attitude wants to claim otherwise. Obviously you're only interested in bashing people, so I'm not going to continue any form of discussion with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    To be fair, Emerald Nightmare is also the easiest mythic raid ever released.

    Jaina alone probably takes most guilds double the pull count of the entirety of Emerald Nightmare.
    Uldir was also 4 and a half months.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post

    Uldir was also 4 and a half months.
    But 20 times harder.

    I know people that killed Mythic Xavius (last day before patch and Cutting edge removal but still >_>) that their skill level is barely clearing half HC raid.

    And as i told them when they got all happy announcing it when we were drinking coffee "You will disband in a month at 3rd boss in the next raid".

    Guess who was right

    Emerald Nightmare should never be mentioned in the same sentence as "WoW raiding" for any kill after Trial released timewise.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    But 20 times harder.

    I know people that killed Mythic Xavius (last day before patch and Cutting edge removal but still >_>) that their skill level is barely clearing half HC raid.

    And as i told them when they got all happy announcing it when we were drinking coffee "You will disband in a month at 3rd boss in the next raid".

    Guess who was right

    Emerald Nightmare should never be mentioned in the same sentence as "WoW raiding" for any kill after Trial released timewise.
    Regardless of how bad the tuning was, it was still a raid and it was still short.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Hi Im Novar View Post
    U'unat is not the end tier boss. Jaina is. The whole idea of crucible is to push the story forward to tie it into the azshara plot. Most hardcore players are enjoying after finishing a tier and preparing for another, some are doing MDI, some are just 'on break'. I guess most of us expected a Halion-like raid that would serve as an addition, not too hard addition to add a layer of the story to the game.
    Halion for many was a 1 and done type of raid. I know for my main raid it offered 1 upgrade for the entire group. Mix in the insane about of trash/mini bosses to get to the fight and it was a big waste of time. Even coming during the 13 month ICC lull it wasn't worth doing. I am sure many would mark this as the worst raid to date if it wasn't so forgettable.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    He was talking about this tier not Uldir...
    "There was less than 10 doing G'huun in the first reset of Uldir,"

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    "There was less than 10 doing G'huun in the first reset of Uldir,"
    Damn it..you quoted me before I deleted my comment lol

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Video Games View Post
    We’re like 170 pulls deep on jaina and still have never made it cleanly to phase 2 so hell if i even care to do cos
    Good luck, it took my guild nearly 400 pulls, had few people quit just after due to burnout, now we're desperately trying to patch the roster to be ready for crucible... fun times.

    I generally hate "small raids". Give me another 12-14 boss epic raid with proper steady difficulty curve please. Even something like Hellfire Citadel would do despite Gorefiend being much harder than Iskar / Socrethar which was kinda jarring and annoying. Nighthold was decent too but could use another boss between Trillax and Krosus / Aluriel since the difficulty jump was quite big and lots of guilds insta hit a wall after first 3. Memorable raids like Ulduar, Icecrown Citadel and Throne of Thunder were all big raids. I miss those.

    In BODA only bosses that made us stumble on for quite some time were Conclave and Merkatorque, then bam Jaina more pulls than all of the bosses combined. I'd like it to be more spread in difficulty and not back loaded all into last boss.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Just cause you can't do it, doesn't mean no one can. Okay? It's like a 5/9 guild saying blizzard failed i didnt clear the contet in time, why even implement 9 bosses if i cant kill them.
    Thats not my point, but okay.

    I was just saying the loot should be better for it, otherwise guilds like mine will literally not do an entirely new raid, which seems stupid.

    Idk why that is such a foreign concept.

    I want to do the raid and work on it - but the fact that theres no point in me going is just stupid. It feels bad to have a new raid, big or small, and not do it.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Ehhh that's a bit of an exaggeration. Several guilds in the top 100 wiped way more than 50 times on Mekka and Blockade. I'd say for the average guild, once you got past the easy first 3, it was ~50 wipes a boss then 100ish for Mekka and Blockade, followed by 200-300 for Jaina
    "Average guild"? What is the population of guilds you are taking the average over? Because it sure as hell isn't all WoW guilds, or even all WoW raiding guilds, or even all WoW mythic raiding guilds.
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