Thread: So mythic+

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  1. #21
    It's really annoying that raider.io effectively forces me to dungeons I not only dislike, but also need no loot from. I really want that TD trinket, but I can't just sit there and spam TD because if I don't have a good score on ALL of them I won't get invited to anything. It's pretty frustrating.

    On the other hand, I guess it makes people spread around and helps people get more groups for their dungeons because people do them even though they don't need them just for their score.

    And that's as a healer, of course. As a DPS, I haven't been invited yet to anything above +5 because I don't have 420 ilvl or 2,000 score.

  2. #22
    I like to leave pugs when people dont hit interrupts or dps is low. No point in carrying people to get them loot.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hey There Guys its Metro View Post
    The entire scoring system provides irrelevant and misleading data to judge pugging.
    As you correctly pointed out, having a 20 in a single dungeon demonstrates considerably more mastery than a 10 in every dungeon, yet the scoring disagrees - because its poorly made with the wrong information being taken into account.

    They need to consider WAY more data to make the score, or stop making it. Its being used in a destructive way in pugging and working in a counter productive way to what Blizzard has set up for the keystone system.

    Step 1 is score for affixes, not just levels. There is absolutely no reason what so ever there can't be a weekly score as well, other than they are lazy.
    After that, they need to find a way to weight for repeat clears.
    This isn't raiding. Progression clears are nice, but to truly master a dungeon you need to run it many many times, with many different comps, and many different affix sets.

    Next time you pug a 15 or higher, look at the applicants.
    I ran a little experiment on stream and saw MULTIPLE applicants for my 17 shrine who had less than 4 total shrines above a 15 ever completed.
    Same could be said for many dungeons.

    This is because the scoring system gives no incentive to actually finish the dungeon, despite Blizzard obviously giving plenty.
    So, it reinforces extremely bad habits, where people just keep joining keys hoping for a perfect run and if they don't get it they leave and join another.

    This shouldn't even be ALLOWED, let alone supported by a third party system.

    In the end, all you have is 2k score people who have 5 total clears of many dungeons and probably hundreds of departures within 5 minutes of starting.

    I wish there was a score for that, because I would avoid those people like the plague.
    Completely disagree here. r.io provides great data on an applicant. If I see someone in queue, I can look them up and look at their runs for the key, the affixes and make a somewhat informed decision about a pugs potential competence for the run.

    Scoring for the affixes is a poor metric, because there is variance between classes/roles for various affixes. Also, how do we determine what affix is worth more? Bursting is harder on some tanks than others, same with necrotic, grievous is harder on some healers more than others, quaking harder on casters than melee and explosive harder on dot classes than melee. You can still see what affixes an applicant has completed and make your own judgement.

    Of course the scoring system incentivises completing a dungeon, I'm not sure where you are drawing that conclusion from. Timing a key awards more than not timing, two-chesting even more, three chesting even more than that.

    I'm not sure how you penalise key deserters, because it's not that simple. People leave for a variety of reasons, some decide to abandon the run altogether mutually due to running into issues, players can DC and fuck an entire run, so it's not so clear cut.

    If a player has a 2k score with hundreds of departures within the first 5 minutes that would make absolutely zero difference to my decision-making process, because a 2k score for most classes will put you at least in the top 20 on the realm for the class and within the top 1% of all logged characters (at the time of posting). If they have a 2k score they have at least completed 17s (awards around 190-ish) and probably a few 18s. I don't see why not finishing a dungeon at all would be a factor when their total performance indicates that they are competent enough.

  4. #24
    Wow @ the first comments telling me 15 is too high for my io rating - that I am not good enough for a 15 and am expecting/wanting to be boosted/carried. That's bullcrap. This is the type of elitism that raider io spawns. I'm not saying I am amazing, but I got to the #2 spot for horde priest healers on my server group (of 6) alone by pugging, not being carried, so I do my job just fine and then some. That's not to say you must be carried if you have friends, I'm not saying that. I'd love to be in that situation but my guildies (who I occasionally heal for) are doing 5's and 7's and my real id friends are doing like 16-21. Save me the "raise your io" crap because it isn't the only indicator of skill and 1200 isn't bad for a casual.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    That might be the most asenine way of using raider score imo. If any group invites you solely on your "score" and not looking into the context of said number is the group that is bad.
    You are wrong. You should not invite people solely on their score. Here is a much better way to use the system:
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    What about you make it a habit to right-click the people you consider inviting, copy the link to their raider.io page, and go look at their past runs? In game: you see their overall score, you see their highest key overall, and you see their highest key in the dungeon you are going to do. That should give you enough information to discard most of the players applying for your +17 Shrine key that have not timed the dungeon even at +15 before.

    All your complaints about score are not actually pointing at any problems with the score, they are pointing at people being too lazy or too incompetent to use the information that is available at their fingertips. No score will replace common sense, it can not replace your ability to just visually scan past runs of some player for 10 seconds on raider.io website.

    The score mostly serves as the quick and easy way to reject people who are trying to jump well over their head. If I list a +22 TD key in LFG, and I instantly get 15-20 people with 2k score applying (2k means they on average timed all +17 keys and a couple of +18 keys), and none of them timed a TD key at least on +21 tyrannical before, I can reject all 15-20 of them without wasting my time to look each of them up on the website.
    In a similar way, if a 1200 player applies for a ML+15 key then they are likely trying to jump over their head. If they don't have ML+14 timed either, you may as well reject them without looking at any more details.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2019-04-14 at 04:49 PM.

  6. #26
    Raider.io is a dreadful system

  7. #27
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    What in the world is this io i keep seeing mentioned? Yes, I haven't played basically since the 1st month of Bfa

  8. #28
    I am Murloc! Nnyco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    What in the world is this io i keep seeing mentioned? Yes, I haven't played basically since the 1st month of Bfa
    Raider.io is a thing since beginnin of legion tho, its a website where they give you a score based on dungeons you ran.
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    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  9. #29
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Raider.io is a thing since beginnin of legion tho, its a website where they give you a score based on dungeons you ran.
    I don't recall ever seeing it or using it though. Always was asked for Ilvl

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Evelyn View Post
    Wow @ the first comments telling me 15 is too high for my io rating - that I am not good enough for a 15 and am expecting/wanting to be boosted/carried. That's bullcrap. This is the type of elitism that raider io spawns. I'm not saying I am amazing, but I got to the #2 spot for horde priest healers on my server group (of 6) alone by pugging, not being carried, so I do my job just fine and then some. That's not to say you must be carried if you have friends, I'm not saying that. I'd love to be in that situation but my guildies (who I occasionally heal for) are doing 5's and 7's and my real id friends are doing like 16-21. Save me the "raise your io" crap because it isn't the only indicator of skill and 1200 isn't bad for a casual.
    I do not see a reason to be outraged. Your realm rank is irrelevant, and the fact that you are pugging is irrelevant. A score of 1200 is not bad for a casual. But all that matters is how much experience you have pushing keys in general, and how much experience you have in a specific dungeon.

    The overall score of 1200 is equivalent to timing every +12 dungeon in time. That is not indicative of being ready to time +15 keys. When you apply for a +15 key, it's still worth paying attention to what is your highest timed key in the specific dungeon. But if your highest is not +14, there is nothing to redeem that.

  11. #31
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    You are wrong. You should not invite people solely on their score. Here is a much better way to use the system:
    But that's exactly what I said?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hey There Guys its Metro View Post
    The entire scoring system provides irrelevant and misleading data to judge pugging.
    As you correctly pointed out, having a 20 in a single dungeon demonstrates considerably more mastery than a 10 in every dungeon, yet the scoring disagrees - because its poorly made with the wrong information being taken into account.

    They need to consider WAY more data to make the score, or stop making it. Its being used in a destructive way in pugging and working in a counter productive way to what Blizzard has set up for the keystone system.

    Step 1 is score for affixes, not just levels. There is absolutely no reason what so ever there can't be a weekly score as well, other than they are lazy.
    After that, they need to find a way to weight for repeat clears.
    This isn't raiding. Progression clears are nice, but to truly master a dungeon you need to run it many many times, with many different comps, and many different affix sets.

    Next time you pug a 15 or higher, look at the applicants.
    I ran a little experiment on stream and saw MULTIPLE applicants for my 17 shrine who had less than 4 total shrines above a 15 ever completed.
    Same could be said for many dungeons.

    This is because the scoring system gives no incentive to actually finish the dungeon, despite Blizzard obviously giving plenty.
    So, it reinforces extremely bad habits, where people just keep joining keys hoping for a perfect run and if they don't get it they leave and join another.

    This shouldn't even be ALLOWED, let alone supported by a third party system.

    In the end, all you have is 2k score people who have 5 total clears of many dungeons and probably hundreds of departures within 5 minutes of starting.

    I wish there was a score for that, because I would avoid those people like the plague.
    Your first statement is not objectively true. There are scenarios where that +20 score does not denote your mastery. It shows that MAYBE you know that one dungeon really well. Knowing Freehold inside and out does not translate to how well you know Temple of Sethraliss. It is possible to be carried through that one dungeon. IT is also possible, but much less likely to be carried through every single dungeon. Your premise requires the acceptance that all dungeons are exactly the same, and that all affixes effect the dungeons exactly the same, which is completely not the case. Group makers want to choose the player generally with the most complete experience across the board, not a superstar at this one specific thing.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    But all that matters is how much experience you have pushing keys in general, and how much experience you have in a specific dungeon.
    Ouraged? I wouldn't go that far. More like frustrated and discouraged. I've double chested dungeons 12's and 13's. I've done all of the dungeons over 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    The overall score of 1200 is equivalent to timing every +12 dungeon in time. That is not indicative of being ready to time +15 keys.
    You shouldn't have to do every dungeon at 14 in time to be able to do a 15 in time. So your point is ridiculous. You don't need high io to be ready and able to do a timed run a single level higher than you have. And back to the first point. If you have done all the dungeons above 10, literally nothing changes as you go up except it is a bit harder each level and it really comes down to affix and what comp you want to run.

    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    When you apply for a +15 key, it's still worth paying attention to what is your highest timed key in the specific dungeon. But if your highest is not +14, there is nothing to redeem that.
    Again, you are saying you wouldn't invite someone for a 15 TOS if they have double chested a 13 TOS? No redeeming that? You're the definition of elitist.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dragnipur View Post
    Bah you can't be more wrong.If he runs only 1 dungeon and has low rating because of it but has done the specific dungeon 100 of times and even on 20+++ then he clearly is good at it.How much rating he has won't matter at this point.If i see that he has 260 rating but have done the dungeon a lot of times and even on higher dificulty i will take him right away.Not everything is about RIO score.There are many more filters there.
    But someone making a group, has the right to use whatever metric they see fit to compose that group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evelyn View Post
    Ouraged? I wouldn't go that far. More like frustrated and discouraged. I've double chested dungeons 12's and 13's. I've done all of the dungeons over 10.

    You shouldn't have to do every dungeon at 14 in time to be able to do a 15 in time. So your point is ridiculous. You don't need high io to be ready and able to do a timed run a single level higher than you have. And back to the first point. If you have done all the dungeons above 10, literally nothing changes as you go up except it is a bit harder each level and it really comes down to affix and what comp you want to run.

    Again, you are saying you wouldn't invite someone for a 15 TOS if they have double chested a 13 TOS? No redeeming that? You're the definition of elitist.
    Why do people owe you something? You are assuming that a group wont take you based on your score, but maybe, just MAYBE they had a more experienced player than you apply? Do they not owe it to they whole group to bring the seemingly most experienced player based on the information they have? Do you suggest they hold interviews to get to know all the applicants before picking one?
    Felpooti - DH - Echo Isles
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    Pootie - Hunter - Echo Isles

  15. #35
    Warchief msdos's Avatar
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    I almost did a 14 in time and the highest thing I've done in time is a 10. Leading damage and not dying.

    It's all about who you group with, imo. If you get Randy Mcdirtbag and Randumz Mcgee, then yeah, they won't let you in arbitrarily and people will also arbitrarily list excuses why you don't qualify for a 15, even though theoretically you could time one. My buddy who is like 1700 io gets denied on his Shadow priest all the time just because Shadow.

    This is where you learn the IO doesn't make actual sense because it's being utilized by morons (jk) and that people are militant more on principle, than actual ability. If you've been raiding at the highest level since launch, then I think you have a good grasp on how to do M+. Interrupting and not standing in bad to a timer is not exactly rocket science and they are easy if you're in BiS gear/traits and know how to mitigate/avoid dmg.

  16. #36
    Even a monkey at a typewriter can get 1.8k - 2k score. Good players are @ 2,8k - 3,5k score, now you can guess what your 1,2k are put some effort into it and you will be invited to normal groups.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooti View Post
    But someone making a group, has the right to use whatever metric they see fit to compose that group.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why do people owe you something? You are assuming that a group wont take you based on your score, but maybe, just MAYBE they had a more experienced player than you apply? Do they not owe it to they whole group to bring the seemingly most experienced player based on the information they have? Do you suggest they hold interviews to get to know all the applicants before picking one?
    I don't assume it's one particular reason over another, that is why I often ask. Sometimes I get no response or someone who says they won't tell me why they wouldn't invite me. But just going by those who do give me answers - it's sometimes my io isn't high enough but more often it's because I haven't already completed a 15.

    Why do people own me something? Typical elitist/apologist response. I expect difficulty in pugging and to come in contact with toxic player, but would like (emphasis on like) to be given a chance from time to time. If you are trying to progress and you point out that people often have extreme requirements, shall I say to you, what do think these people owe you? This is a way to dismiss valid gripes regarding this system and certain types who use it. I don't think someone owe's me a spot. I apply because I believe I can fulfill my role and be a benefit to my group. I'm tired of seeing people not pull their own weight or leave over the slightest thing. There's nothing wrong with me feeling that way. Did your feelings get hurt for you to reply to me with this nonsense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    Even a monkey at a typewriter can get 1.8k - 2k score. Good players are @ 2,8k - 3,5k score, now you can guess what your 1,2k are put some effort into it and you will be invited to normal groups.
    Oh look. Another person suggesting I shouldn't complain. You are being dishonest. It takes time and effort. Not everyone is casual by choice. Some people have jobs and children and school and don't have time to grind out io rating. Not to mention, there are others things in game to do. So in your mind, 1200 took no time and effort on my part, but if i just put some effort into raising my score to 2.8 or 3.5 (because that is easily obtainable for a casual, right?) then I can be considered good and get invited to normal groups. Do you listen to yourself?
    Last edited by Evelyn; 2019-04-14 at 07:30 PM.

  18. #38
    What class/spec a person is seems to have been neglected in this post. As keys get higher it's harder to get into groups as a certain class. Classes like rogue, and dh have an easy time getting into keys. Like my Dh who is 408ilvl with a raider io of >700 has had no problem getting into keys when I try to get into groups. So it is possible that the person who is making the m+ group wants to run with certain classes/specs and your class doesn't fall into that comp. Then it seems that people want to blame it on their io score instead.
    And as keys get higher they also become less forgiving. You get to a point where if someone messes up or the group wipes once, it's a scuffed key. Unlike with 10-12s you can easily wipe a group times and still time the key no problem. So if I were to make a group I would be more inclined to pick someone with a higher io and of a good spec. And the thing is that there are a lot of other players (or at least there were) queing for the same key, so you have to make yourself stand out somehow. And for me that doesn't necessarily mean ilvl because after a certain ilvl I don't really care what you're ilvl is.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkimya View Post
    What class/spec a person is seems to have been neglected in this post. As keys get higher it's harder to get into groups as a certain class. Classes like rogue, and dh have an easy time getting into keys. Like my Dh who is 408ilvl with a raider io of >700 has had no problem getting into keys when I try to get into groups. So it is possible that the person who is making the m+ group wants to run with certain classes/specs and your class doesn't fall into that comp. Then it seems that people want to blame it on their io score instead.
    And as keys get higher they also become less forgiving. You get to a point where if someone messes up or the group wipes once, it's a scuffed key. Unlike with 10-12s you can easily wipe a group times and still time the key no problem. So if I were to make a group I would be more inclined to pick someone with a higher io and of a good spec. And the thing is that there are a lot of other players (or at least there were) queing for the same key, so you have to make yourself stand out somehow. And for me that doesn't necessarily mean ilvl because after a certain ilvl I don't really care what you're ilvl is.
    I play holy priest for mythic+. I should have clarified. I'm aware that as you get higher keys, you have less room to make mistakes. If someone whispers me saying they are looking for a druid because brez, I mention that I have eng brez. I don't expect it to change their mind (it's not as good as a druids) but it has happened before. I think holy is underrated and the utility I bring to the party ought to be considered.

  20. #40
    What you guys saying "but he knows how to do 1 dungeon really well" aren't considering is if the maker of the group wants to keep doing keys after that one.

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