So mythic+

[dacoolist]

I think the difference in this post vs the rest:

Most people complain they can't even get into a 10.. this is a MUCH MUCH higher skill cap/ceiling - a 15 is MUCHHHH harder than a 10.

My dumbass only does tens.. unless we like multichest a ten and the group somehow (never) likes my heals - then we do an 11 or 12 (never)


So ON TOPIC: Don't give up OP, keep doing the grind and getting that raider.io up and you'll b in those groups 100%

[ydraw]

You can't be declined from your own key. Push your own key and you can run as many 15s as you want. That's how you raise your score.

[Sharby]

One time I signed up for a group that claimed to be checking IO, I applied on an alt (that had done a 14 of the relevant dungeon which showed up on IO, on time I might add) and got declined, from an 11. I asked him why he's like 'ur ilvl is trash bro', told him to actually check my IO and guess what I got invited and performed the best with 20+ less ilvl than my groupmates.

Point of my anecdote is to say that I don't think its the tool that's the problem but the people using it, if your goal is to do a specific dungeon just do good keys for that dungeon and I don't see how you'll have a problem getting invited, that's one of the FIRST things I check as a group leader.

If you're still not getting invited you could also do what I do and just make groups asking people with the desired key to apply. I've yet to have this method fail me.

[tclphz]

Reading this thread makes me want to rise to the occasion and become a great M+ tank and lead my fellow pug players to victory. Yet I realize the immense time dedication that would require to make it happen and for no appreciation 90% of the time with randoms anyways. Even if you put in a lot of work to make the run complete.

I main healer in raid, but I also tank with alts in M+. People really appreciate a good tank. If you want to make WoW friends, tank for a group, I've gotten a lot of friend adds because of M+ runs. People appreciate it, I would recommend making the effort.

[Th3Scourge]

enemy health/damage modifiers:
+12 is +116%
+15 is +172%

That is quite a steep increase, +15 enemies are 1.5x as strong as in a +12. Mechanics might not be different but the pulls certainly have to be, +12 strategies will have to be refined to time +15.

If you take all evening a group with experience in +12 will probably beat the dungeon, but I highly doubt they'll make it intime. Which was the topic.

Yeah many people don't realise the exponential nature of key difficulty scaling. They tend to think "I have 1200 io and a few 11-13 keys completed, I can just slot right into a 15 no problem" without realising the difficulty scales and trivial shit can't be ignored.

This is why I don't have any issue with raider.io as it currently stands. There are more issues with community perception of classes than any issues that arise from a 3rd party tool.

I do understand that some classes, especially DPS classes can feel that they get unfair treatment being declined, and that's completely understandable, but that's more to do with class imbalances than any other. I play a Blood DK main and even sometimes find myself declined because I'm not "Prot warrior meta" at the moment. Has absolutely nothing to do with raider.io

[Sliske]

Lemme guess. I'm 2 sentences into your posts. Tell me if i'm wrong:

You don't want to push your own key. Any attempts to push your own key 'good people' (high io) don't sign up and then your group inevitably fails. You've tried this 0-3 times max. So now you want to bypass the learning and progression curve, by just trying to get into groups with people that are more experienced than you (timed 15s+)

How far was I off? These threads about io or linking curve always lead down the same rabbit hole - people get surprised that they can't just bypass all progress just because they're not in a guild, then get tilted that the only thing keeping the game sane for serious puggers (i.o) is used as a scape goat for why their failures exist.

[Brewhan]

I main healer in raid, but I also tank with alts in M+. People really appreciate a good tank. If you want to make WoW friends, tank for a group, I've gotten a lot of friend adds because of M+ runs. People appreciate it, I would recommend making the effort.

I did pug tank a lot in legion doing lots of +10s-15s but not as interested because BFA dungeons is a lot of just doing fancy skips and trying to avoid the hard trash pulls when legion I could just tank and move at the speed of sound with pally legendary boots/sephuz/ and bear tartare. Fun times . Might get back into BFA tanking again but it seems the community got worse also I really hate the lack of 3 chests worth of loot now. I know it was really too much loot given in legion but it was a nice incentive.

[Xath]

I don't recall ever seeing it or using it though. Always was asked for Ilvl

Ilvl isn't a great indicator anymore you can easily get to 410 in a few weeks just doing 10 runs.

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I almost did a 14 in time and the highest thing I've done in time is a 10. Leading damage and not dying.

It's all about who you group with, imo. If you get Randy Mcdirtbag and Randumz Mcgee, then yeah, they won't let you in arbitrarily and people will also arbitrarily list excuses why you don't qualify for a 15, even though theoretically you could time one. My buddy who is like 1700 io gets denied on his Shadow priest all the time just because Shadow.

This is where you learn the IO doesn't make actual sense because it's being utilized by morons (jk) and that people are militant more on principle, than actual ability. If you've been raiding at the highest level since launch, then I think you have a good grasp on how to do M+. Interrupting and not standing in bad to a timer is not exactly rocket science and they are easy if you're in BiS gear/traits and know how to mitigate/avoid dmg.

Shadow has issues specifically an insanely long cd kick thst severely hampers it. I would never bring an spriest to a pug shrine for example over an ele shaman.

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I do try to perform better than others at my level but also behave and act like an adult who respects that everyone is giving their time and energy to do a key. Just make your own group is another typical cop-out response. As it ignores the hardships of making your own group and trying to push keys, as I covered in my first post. It fails to address toxicity in mythic+. It's also silly to say do better than them when I am not in the position to be geared from mythic raiding and have friends from mythic raiding join me in a mythic+ run, so you can't just expect a casual mythic+ person do better than someone in that position when they don't have those advantages.

What hardship? Make your own group invite lower io people who are unlikely to leave since that will definitely work out well. You can get to 410 easily just running M+ after that it starts to get harder but 410 is more than high enough ilvl.

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Reading this thread...yes I believe it is finally time for Blizzard to address raider.io.

They've said they are likely going to add it to the base ui that's what you mean yeah?

[kamuimac]

Yeah many people don't realise the exponential nature of key difficulty scaling. They tend to think "I have 1200 io and a few 11-13 keys completed, I can just slot right into a 15 no problem" without realising the difficulty scales and trivial shit can't be ignored.

This is why I don't have any issue with raider.io as it currently stands. There are more issues with community perception of classes than any issues that arise from a 3rd party tool.

I do understand that some classes, especially DPS classes can feel that they get unfair treatment being declined, and that's completely understandable, but that's more to do with class imbalances than any other. I play a Blood DK main and even sometimes find myself declined because I'm not "Prot warrior meta" at the moment. Has absolutely nothing to do with raider.io

most of this and in general with difficulties like mythic 6-10 and hc raids come from a fact that people have 0 ways of progress in easier difficulties.

what blizzard should have done is simply bring back VP and let people farm it up in easier modes - it would take them 8-10 weeks of content per alt and lets them work for something.

atm game is in really strange position when you hit hardwall of 385 and you cannot do anything - nobody will take you to mythic + or hc raid and you could as well unsub till next tier.

really bad design for mmorpg.

[Th3Scourge]

most of this and in general with difficulties like mythic 6-10 and hc raids come from a fact that people have 0 ways of progress in easier difficulties.

what blizzard should have done is simply bring back VP and let people farm it up in easier modes - it would take them 8-10 weeks of content per alt and lets them work for something.

atm game is in really strange position when you hit hardwall of 385 and you cannot do anything - nobody will take you to mythic + or hc raid and you could as well unsub till next tier.

really bad design for mmorpg.

Hmm not necessarily. You have:

Normal BoD that awards 385+,
6+ keys award 385+,
ilvl 400 crafted BoD gear is very easy to acquire,
Neck ilvl is very easy to get to 40,
You can run a mythic champions of the light group quite easily for 415+ loot,
Darkshore warfront for 1 400 piece every few weeks,
Heroic BoD groups generally take players that are 385 or so, and
Few lucky warforges/titanforges can boost your ilvl significantly.
Fill your conquest bar for a piece of pvp loot, or you can boost your arena rating quite easily
random 400 azerite pieces are 675 azerite which is the equivalent of titan residuum for 1 10+ key per week (does not have to be timed) or a couple of weeks of running lower keys

I honestly don't think loot is a limiting factor in this game with the sheer abundance of loot options available. There are many issues with the current game, none of which are loot acquisition

[Evelyn]

You can't be declined from your own key. Push your own key and you can run as many 15s as you want. That's how you raise your score.

I've pushed my own key's from 12 to 14 and 13 to 14 and at least half a dozen times I form a group for a 14 and vet people and have never completed a 14 in time of my own key because people are always leaving over the slightest things, even when there is no wipe, as I mentioned in my initial post and I should add that I advertise my groups as chill groups and have had people leave on groups advertised as "for completion" even. I explained that I've invited "better people" as I've been advised to do in order to complete in time and these people see even more likely to leave over the slightest thing. I mean just last night I was hoping to double chest a 13 and invited a balance druid who checked out and he couldn't even break 19k dps. In the group I ran after (also with my own key and with people that checked out in io/previous dungeon runs/item level) 2 of them were failing to mechanics and one left after they died on a boss.

Lemme guess. I'm 2 sentences into your posts. Tell me if i'm wrong:

You don't want to push your own key. Any attempts to push your own key 'good people' (high io) don't sign up and then your group inevitably fails. You've tried this 0-3 times max. So now you want to bypass the learning and progression curve, by just trying to get into groups with people that are more experienced than you (timed 15s+)

How far was I off? These threads about io or linking curve always lead down the same rabbit hole - people get surprised that they can't just bypass all progress just because they're not in a guild, then get tilted that the only thing keeping the game sane for serious puggers (i.o) is used as a scape goat for why their failures exist.

What progression is that? Doing every dungeon on 14 in time to be able to be invited into a group for a 15? Don't be absurd. Even doing a particular dungeon on 14 isn't proving to help me get into a group for a 15 of the same dungeon.

Where did I say I didn't want to push my own key? I simply explained my experience with pushing keys. These things aren't mutually exclusive. You can push keys AND join other groups. There is nothing wrong with doing both.

You mad bro. Get gud. This is how your reply came across. I'm scapgoating raider io for my failures? Because even the things out of my control, are my fault? I think anyone who has these type of negative experience with raider io and the community, has a right to be frustrated and who am I to say otherwise. Who are you to say otherwise?

what is wrong with your own key?

See my previous reply on that topic.

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What hardship? Make your own group invite lower io people who are unlikely to leave since that will definitely work out well. You can get to 410 easily just running M+ after that it starts to get harder but 410 is more than high enough ilvl.

Seriously? The hardships of finding groups and pushing keys while pugging mythic+. Did you mean to quote someone else? My item level is 413. It's right there in my initial post along with examples of said hardships. Just because you don't experience them doesn't mean they don't exist for others. Let me guess. If someone is experiencing a hard time, it's their fault and they just need to not be bad. It has nothing to do with the add-on or elitism and toxicity, right? Reminds me of conservative libertarians. If people are so poor, then they need to stop being lazy and get a job!

[Chemii]

As someone who only did high M+ with a guild i dont understand why/how ppl want to expose themself to this pain.
Good luck with ur key, ull get it done, hopefully sooner than later.

Pretty much this, I used to love M+ but it was always because it was with a group of friends I'd play with all the time. Pugging is just full of players who give up because they think they are better than everyone else and the only reason they die is because of others being bad.

[Mardux]

A lot of people are buying heroic BoD boosts, and M+ boosts. Easily achieve 400+ item level without ever stepping foot in a +10. The people I boost have run very few +2's-+5's, but always buy a certain +10 keystone whenever we have it. I have a few clients who are like that just to get a single trinket or ring. One guy bought 3-4 runs with us in a single dungeon just to get a mage fuse.

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If i see that you have run multiple TD's above the +10 and have only done +2 or +3's in the other dungeons I am going to ask you for 150k gold to run with us in a +10 TD because you most likely bought a boost. Some people just buy boosts in a single dungeon to get a certain item.

Why should i pay someone who acts like the only way to time a +10 TD is to buy a boost? Im not looking to join a group where the leader had to be boosted through tol dagor. Lol.

[Evelyn]

I see people using raider io to gatekeep but 1) score can be bought, just like gear. 2) a person can grind rating but it doesn't guarantee they are going to perform well. 3) you still get people, regardless of io, who pull mediocre dps, die to avoidable stuff, or leave over practically nothing.

Yes, the add-on comes in handy and it may help filter out what some consider "bads", but it doesn't guarantee good and professional people. It's an indicator of skill but it isn't the end all be all and not everyone bothers to actually check the site, they just go by the tooltip and it can be misleading. I think we can all agree it ought to show more - like a persons experience in that particular dungeon. Not just the highest they have done not timed.

[Sliske]

I see people using raider io to gatekeep but 1) score can be bought, just like gear. 2) a person can grind rating but it doesn't guarantee they are going to perform well. 3) you still get people, regardless of io, who pull mediocre dps, die to avoidable stuff, or leave over practically nothing.

No one is saying it guarantees anything. But given a choice of a bunch of shit options (ilvl, linking an achievement, raider.io) you choose the by far best option - raider io. Whats more likely, that someone got lucky with titan forges and got a high ilvl, or that they shelled out millions of gold to buy 15s in every single dungeon?

Yes, the add-on comes in handy and it may help filter out what some consider "bads", but it doesn't guarantee good and professional people. It's an indicator of skill but it isn't the end all be all and not everyone bothers to actually check the site, they just go by the tooltip and it can be misleading.

Again this is just a non-argument. This is comparable to saying we shouldn't have background checks on buying guns, because some people intending to commit crimes with a gun will have already gotten away with it, or are planning to do it in the future. So because a tiny minority we shouldn't do something that benefits the majority?

I think we can all agree it ought to show more - like a persons experience in that particular dungeon. Not just the highest they have done not timed.

You can. You can check if they were being boosted, if they did it on a joke week, if they were actually healing and not just afking as DPS, etc.



Here is streamer Nagura's drop down for TolDagor.

Clicking the first one, we can see she did it with that brutal affix combo of last week, and did it with a pretty good comp all around the same skill level. So no boosting going on here.



Here on the other hand is an 11 SOTS i did awhile back. I joined a group that was titled "your key any dungeon" and linked it. I'm the 500 io ret with dogshit gear. I think the blood DK was learning tank routes. He was in a group with the 2200 rogue. We absolutely crushed it and 2 chested it, despite having me doing pitiful DPS and the other guy, a mage, doing wank DPS.

[ydraw]

I've pushed my own key's from 12 to 14 and 13 to 14 and at least half a dozen times I form a group for a 14 and vet people and have never completed a 14 in time of my own key because people are always leaving over the slightest things, even when there is no wipe

Running someone else's key isn't going to change that. Running your own key is the best way to get groups and the best way to raise score. If you're putting together groups that are always failing, then you need to download raider.io and be more selective who you invite.

[Xath]

I've pushed my own key's from 12 to 14 and 13 to 14 and at least half a dozen times I form a group for a 14 and vet people and have never completed a 14 in time of my own key because people are always leaving over the slightest things, even when there is no wipe, as I mentioned in my initial post and I should add that I advertise my groups as chill groups and have had people leave on groups advertised as "for completion" even. I explained that I've invited "better people" as I've been advised to do in order to complete in time and these people see even more likely to leave over the slightest thing. I mean just last night I was hoping to double chest a 13 and invited a balance druid who checked out and he couldn't even break 19k dps. In the group I ran after (also with my own key and with people that checked out in io/previous dungeon runs/item level) 2 of them were failing to mechanics and one left after they died on a boss.



What progression is that? Doing every dungeon on 14 in time to be able to be invited into a group for a 15? Don't be absurd. Even doing a particular dungeon on 14 isn't proving to help me get into a group for a 15 of the same dungeon.

Where did I say I didn't want to push my own key? I simply explained my experience with pushing keys. These things aren't mutually exclusive. You can push keys AND join other groups. There is nothing wrong with doing both.

You mad bro. Get gud. This is how your reply came across. I'm scapgoating raider io for my failures? Because even the things out of my control, are my fault? I think anyone who has these type of negative experience with raider io and the community, has a right to be frustrated and who am I to say otherwise. Who are you to say otherwise?



See my previous reply on that topic.

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Seriously? The hardships of finding groups and pushing keys while pugging mythic+. Did you mean to quote someone else? My item level is 413. It's right there in my initial post along with examples of said hardships. Just because you don't experience them doesn't mean they don't exist for others. Let me guess. If someone is experiencing a hard time, it's their fault and they just need to not be bad. It has nothing to do with the add-on or elitism and toxicity, right? Reminds me of conservative libertarians. If people are so poor, then they need to stop being lazy and get a job!

There is zero hardship in finding groups if you push your own key. It's very easy to fill groups now whether you will get competent people is a different matter but I would thinking running a completion run is still better than sitting in org/sw and futilely applying to groups.

[Evelyn]

No one is saying it guarantees anything. But given a choice of a bunch of shit options (ilvl, linking an achievement, raider.io) you choose the by far best option - raider io. Whats more likely, that someone got lucky with titan forges and got a high ilvl, or that they shelled out millions of gold to buy 15s in every single dungeon?

I never said raider io isn't the best option currently. Only that it can be improved.

Again this is just a non-argument. This is comparable to saying we shouldn't have background checks on buying guns, because some people intending to commit crimes with a gun will have already gotten away with it, or are planning to do it in the future. So because a tiny minority we shouldn't do something that benefits the majority?

It would be more like wanting to buy a gun and being given a basic background check rather than an extensive background check.

You can. You can check if they were being boosted, if they did it on a joke week, if they were actually healing and not just afking as DPS, etc.

It's not in the tooltip/when you scroll over someone. Which is what I was referring to. See below.

"It's an indicator of skill but it isn't the end all be all and not everyone bothers to actually check the site, they just go by the tooltip and it can be misleading. I think we can all agree it ought to show more - like a persons experience in that particular dungeon. Not just the highest they have done not timed."

If you're putting together groups that are always failing, then you need to download raider.io and be more selective who you invite.

Not trying to be rude here, but are you even reading my posts? I use raider io and I have been selective of who I invite. I've still encountered the same issues. I've invited higher io people than myself, 1500, 1700 and some over 2k and I've had the same issues with these people. Maybe they are less likely to be bad, but they also seem more likely to leave over a single wipe, even if advertised as a chill group.

There is zero hardship in finding groups if you push your own key. It's very easy to fill groups now whether you will get competent people is a different matter but I would thinking running a completion run is still better than sitting in org/sw and futilely applying to groups.

I never said there was hardship in finding groups with your own key, but that it can be tough to find good players who won't ditch over a single wipe.

[ydraw]

I never said there was hardship in finding groups with your own key, but that it can be tough to find good players who won't ditch over a single wipe.

1. Invite players with .io good enough to clear the dungeon.
2. Make those players get in voice chat if it's a 14 or higher.

It's pretty easy to weed out the people who don't give a shit this way. A lot of people will just straight up drop group if you ask them to join discord, it's a good way to tell if they actually care at all.

You have to remember though, at this level the majority of people are only joining the run in order to raise their .io score. If they just wanted loot they could do a 10 instead. People dropping when the run is clearly not going to make the timer is just a fact of life.

All you can do is keep trying. If your run is going well, people won't leave.

Almost forgot one thing: When you do have a successful run and the people in it were good to play with, add them as a friend and ask them to join subsequent runs. This way you can build up a list of reliable, decent players to run with and minimise the amount of strangers you have to group with.

[Kulspruta]

Sometimes the group I run with, needs a pug dps. So we usually set it up to where you have to whisper group lead an amazing Pokemon. Does not matter what score you have. But I can see how much it would suck not to get an invite.