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  1. #1

    Mythic Plus.... a solution?

    Introduction
    Mythic Plus creates an interesting and rewarding (not just in terms of gear) way to experience the game in short bursts or full on grinds. In my case, I enjoy being able to log on when my schedule allows and quickly form a group to tackle fairly challenging content (as of writing +15 to +16 keys is my progression range). I use the term "quickly" but this is highly subjective since it can take up to 15-20 minutes to form a capable group (and I play either a Monk or Demon Hunter tank).

    All that being said, I'm writing here to share a bit of my experiences in the Mythic Plus "PuG Community". I usually end up pug'ing keys even though I am in a raiding guild on Area-52 and also in a cross realm raiding community. This is simply because most of the people in my guild and the cross realm community prefer to just complete one +10 for their weekly chest (which is totally okay).

    Raider IO
    As many of you know, the pug community relies heavily on Raider IO. I rely on it as too since well... I want to form capable groups and no other way really exists in game for me to differentiate between the 10+ DPS or 5+ healers in the LFG que at any given time. Its not personal just there are a lot of people out there for essentially 4 slots. I know ilvl exists but I follow the general rule that if your ilvl is within 15 ilvl's of the loot dropped then you meet the minimum requirement to reasonable participate in that content. There was a blue post somewhere stating this is how Blizzard designs content. A simple example would be: Currently a +10 drops 400 ilvl loot at the end of the run. Therefore, I will take anyone 385+ ilvl provided they know affixes, routes, mechanics, etc.

    The only issue I have with Raider IO is that I need to use a tool outside the game to gauge a person's skill/experience level in my LFG que. Now I don't know much about PvP but there does exist an in game rating system to help gauge a person's skill/experience level. Also, I read that there are rewards based on reaching higher ranks (transmog, mounts, etc).

    Toxicity
    Lets face it... a group of strangers coordinating with little room for error against a timer can easily spell trouble.

    Discussion Point
    My question here is would it make sense to implement a similar rating system for Mythic Plus as there is for PvP? We all view ourselves as "being great" at the game but at the end of the day you can't truly know if there is no system to measure your success. The simplest of course is completing a key in time but how can you "show" others in the PuG community your experience? I know I would enjoy grinding my in game Mythic Plus rank vs a score from an external source since well... a certain sense of accomplishment comes with it. For the sake of discussion, assume no special transmogs or mounts would be tied to an in game Mythic Plus rating system.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Edit: Many mentioned blizzard has plans for something like this and below is the source / quote I was able to find

    Source: wowhead mythic-changes-coming-in-rise-of-azshara-highlights-from-sloot-stream

    "Blizzard is considering having something like a Raider.io score in-game, but nothing planned right now."
    "Blizzard's plan about a scoring system is to fix some issues from community-driven ones, like having affixes matter and other contextual information added to it."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by CleanSlate; 2019-04-15 at 01:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Legendary! Frolk's Avatar
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    Blizzard said they are adding a system like raider.io to be ingame, think its coming with 8.2
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by CleanSlate View Post
    Introduction
    Mythic Plus creates an interesting and rewarding (not just in terms of gear) way to experience the game in short bursts or full on grinds. In my case, I enjoy being able to log on when my schedule allows and quickly form a group to tackle fairly challenging content (as of writing +15 to +16 keys is my progression range). I use the term "quickly" but this is highly subjective since it can take up to 15-20 minutes to form a capable group (and I play either a Monk or Demon Hunter tank).

    All that being said, I'm writing here to share a bit of my experiences in the Mythic Plus "PuG Community". I usually end up pug'ing keys even though I am in a raiding guild on Area-52 and also in a cross realm raiding community. This is simply because most of the people in my guild and the cross realm community prefer to just complete one +10 for their weekly chest (which is totally okay).

    Raider IO
    As many of you know, the pug community relies heavily on Raider IO. I rely on it as too since well... I want to form capable groups and no other way really exists in game for me to differentiate between the 10+ DPS or 5+ healers in the LFG que at any given time. Its not personal just there are a lot of people out there for essentially 4 slots. I know ilvl exists but I follow the general rule that if your ilvl is within 15 ilvl's of the loot dropped then you meet the minimum requirement to reasonable participate in that content. There was a blue post somewhere stating this is how Blizzard designs content. A simple example would be: Currently a +10 drops 400 ilvl loot at the end of the run. Therefore, I will take anyone 385+ ilvl provided they know affixes, routes, mechanics, etc.

    The only issue I have with Raider IO is that I need to use a tool outside the game to gauge a person's skill/experience level in my LFG que. Now I don't know much about PvP but there does exist an in game rating system to help gauge a person's skill/experience level. Also, I read that there are rewards based on reaching higher ranks (transmog, mounts, etc).

    Toxicity
    Lets face it... a group of strangers coordinating with little room for error against a timer can easily spell trouble.

    Discussion Point
    My question here is would it make sense to implement a similar rating system for Mythic Plus as there is for PvP? We all view ourselves as "being great" at the game but at the end of the day you can't truly know if there is no system to measure your success. The simplest of course is completing a key in time but how can you "show" others in the PuG community your experience? I know I would enjoy grinding my in game Mythic Plus rank vs a score from an external source since well... a certain sense of accomplishment comes with it. For the sake of discussion, assume no special transmogs or mounts would be tied to an in game Mythic Plus rating system.
    Sounds good to me. There is an in-game ranking system for PVP, why not one for PVE. It is, of course, totally optional to use. A person could just bring whoever they want to to a group and disregard a persons rating.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Blizzard said they are adding a system like raider.io to be ingame, think its coming with 8.2
    Thats not going to help much. You have very good players that only do mythic raiding and have low rio (cause they are not interested by mm+). You have players with high rio, incapable to do a mythic raiding boss. I have grouped with 1700 rio people that die stupidly in a +12 / +13 key ...

    Ilvl means nothing. cant judge the skill of someone in mythic + with ilvl.
    Mythic raiding, does not give you an indication if a person is any good in mythic + DJ.

    So what can we do?

    For me a good start would have been to add something like mop solo challenges but harder with various stuff.
    Also and more importantly we need better tools to actually recruit members for a fixed team.

    I dont think there is a perfect solution, at least if there is an in game rating, we will stop using an external site :-/

  5. #5
    i dont even care about M+, if i want to push (wich i rarely want because i burned myself by pushing up to +15 in beta) i just go with guildies. Pugging keys is a bad idea for pushing, it can even be a bad idea to weekly cap with pugs.

    The main problem with the M+ system is basically the total lack on rewards. Why should i do 20+ when 10s already give me ilvl cap items? No special mogs, no title, no mounts... they should add some rewards if they want more people to be interested in M+.

  6. #6
    Remove it. That's the only solution to it.

    Have you seen the M+ community? They're overglorified LFR heroes who shoot themselves in the foot and blame everyone else for it!

    That, or make it so M+ can only be done with a 5/5 guild group. Fuck these random pugs. You could catch them standing in fire and screaming in the chat in LFR, then jerking off to their IO score because they leave groups the moment wipes happen to "Keep muh IO score clean", all while causing those wipes.

    On top of that, you don't get anything you could actually use out of a fucking M+ chest anyways. So what's the damned point?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Blizzard said they are adding a system like raider.io to be ingame, think its coming with 8.2
    And no doubt, like every other solution they've stuffed in, it'll be vastly superior to what it's attempting to replace. /sarcasm
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    And no doubt, like every other solution they've stuffed in, it'll be vastly superior to what it's attempting to replace. /sarcasm
    Actually Blizzards system , assuming they go with what they said, will be for the certain affixes and dungeon that are active when you are checking and not total, so its gonna be much better, much more punishing for the average player.

    Raider.io at medium scores, like 1k-1.4k is plagued by people that did 10-13s in Volcanic/Teeming week which is a joke and they cant do other mechanics at the same level, and caused major problems the next 2 weeks because of that since it was early in the S2 release.

    Only problem with raider.io is that terrible players or boosted players abuse it, nothing else is wrong with it.

    There is nothing wrong with raider.io as an addon, the entitled terrible players that refuse to join a guild that is of the same level as them is the problem.

    I do not care to use it, i require it once every 2 weeks when its some stupid time of the day and we cant find a 3rd DPS, i dont check for the score, i have taken 1.1k players over 1.5k players before, i only check the "maximum completed of this dungeon and maximum completed overall".

    I dont do all dungeons cause i would never bother with a fucking +13 Shrine of the Storm/KR/SoB when i can do a +13 AD/TD/Freehold to give the weekly cache to a guildie which is all i care about cause they are a bunch of fucking slackers, therefor my score is always around 1.2k.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-04-15 at 01:35 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Remove it. That's the only solution to it.

    Have you seen the M+ community? They're overglorified LFR heroes who shoot themselves in the foot and blame everyone else for it!

    That, or make it so M+ can only be done with a 5/5 guild group. Fuck these random pugs. You could catch them standing in fire and screaming in the chat in LFR, then jerking off to their IO score because they leave groups the moment wipes happen to "Keep muh IO score clean", all while causing those wipes.

    On top of that, you don't get anything you could actually use out of a fucking M+ chest anyways. So what's the damned point?
    End game should be raiding and nothing else. Nothing in the game should be possible to pug either. If everyone in a group isn't part of the same guild I don't think they should even be allowed to enter an instance. I mean have you seen the sort of people who go into pugs? I mean, honestly, have you seen them???

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    End game should be raiding and nothing else. Nothing in the game should be possible to pug either. If everyone in a group isn't part of the same guild I don't think they should even be allowed to enter an instance. I mean have you seen the sort of people who go into pugs? I mean, honestly, have you seen them???
    You sound like someone who micromanaged their IO score

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    You sound like someone who micromanaged their IO score
    No, I barely run M+. Maybe once a week. Sometimes not at all. I just find some of the opinions people spout on here rather humorous.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    No, I barely run M+. Maybe once a week. Sometimes not at all. I just find some of the opinions people spout on here rather humorous.
    You don't wanna run it any more often than you already do. Just look at them. Gross. Bunch of subhumans I swear

  13. #13
    Legendary! SinR's Avatar
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    The problem isnt M+, its people that swear by Raider.io
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
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  14. #14
    ELO rating systems are terrible and encourage a lot of very unhealthy behaviors. I would prefer it if they removed rating from PvP.

    Instead of just enjoying the game, they get so focused on their ELO rating that its all they care about. Yelling and screaming.

    I think maybe have a system where you can organize tournaments or leagues or something might be better.
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  15. #15
    Raider seems to do a great job of it already. Just like gearscore did back in wrath. Guess it's coming.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    The problem is you have little Johnny the mouth breathing moron who just punted 10 squirrels in a WQ and was handed a Mythic Raiding quality piece of gear.
    LOL, funny as feck, but true!

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    Last edited by Ranualf; 2019-04-15 at 03:17 AM.

  17. #17
    The Patient Darkynhalvos's Avatar
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    Ah, the old IO stuff.

    The system that is more unreliable than gearscore or ilvl ever was because it does not factor ALL runs, only a few based off of some ridiculous leaderboard that has NO PLACE outside organized competitions such as the MDI.

  18. #18
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkynhalvos View Post
    Ah, the old IO stuff.

    The system that is more unreliable than gearscore or ilvl ever was because it does not factor ALL runs, only a few based off of some ridiculous leaderboard that has NO PLACE outside organized competitions such as the MDI.
    It does factor in all runs now. Where have you been for the past couple months?

  19. #19
    At first glance, their own version of raiderio seems like a waste of time. Doubt people will switch over, sort of like Discord vs communities (and voice chat for that matter). In the case of Discord and Raiderio, they're constantly updated and tweaked, whereas whatever Blizzard puts in will go without iteration outside of major patches (or at all) and probably be viewed as stripped down and inferior. The in-game UI is usually kind of limited on the kind of information it puts out there too, especially with the outdated guild finder which still hasn't been pruned. The way they approached Ilvl to kill Gearscore was fine, but I'm not sure they can really supplant raiderio, and I don't know what they gain from trying. Raiderio has added things in the tooltips to be more inclusive (last season score, highest key etc), and if the Blizzard one is stripped down in any fashion it probably won't be used. The one niche might be the low end pugs that weren't going to be using the addon anyway but now they can see what keys they have completed. At which point you might be really harming the new guys that are trying to work their way up.

    So my prediction: I'm guessing this is like one dev's individual sideproject. Like instead of seeing someone's proving grounds it shows some basic information on mouseover like highest key/score for each dungeon, adjusted for affixes to give very very minor weighting to certain weeks, and maybe less weight on in-time too than it should. Talking like 10% bonuses for in-time and affix difficulty. It will very likely be missing some of the other more inclusive info mentioned above. Basically I could see Blizzard not giving very big weighting to on-time because of their different perspective and subtly wanting to discourage leavers and gogogo-ers (though I'd say the mentality is locked in at this point). IMO that's the main reason why the high end will probably stick with RIO. /WoWstradamus off

    I will say that my prediction doesn't go that far out on a limb and just drawing some safe, logical conclusions, in that Blizzard won't be as aggressive in penalizing the untimeds

    Is this coming in 8.2? Not much point in me speculating further if the PTR is just days off
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-04-15 at 05:54 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Blizzard said they are adding a system like raider.io to be ingame, think its coming with 8.2
    Looks like they want to do something like this but no plans as of yet. Updated main post with source I was able to find.

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