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  1. #441
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Enough with the emulation talk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    I wonder if the PS5 will play PS4 games at a PS4 Pro level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squishy Tia View Post
    If Sony can get AMD to somehow keep the GNM API functional that many PS4 games require, yes. The PS4's GPU is a mishmash of GCN 2 and GCN 4 architectures and features. With any luck, Navi is merely a massive superset of those features and can run the GNM API at a low enough level to provide performance enhancements or at least equivalent performance. If they can manage to keep GNM functional, Navi could well be far, far more powerful for PS4 games than the PS4 Pro is and actually provide at or close to stable 4k60 performance. Whether or not that'll be checkerboarding as is currently used or native 4k is unknown currently. One can hope, right?
    I wouldn't really get your hopes up. It'll most likely run at the same performance. One of the patent filed was a device solely to test the timings and boundaries of tweaking hardware and software configurations running the same ISA, like clock speed, memory latency or whatever to get the proper timings so the game wouldn't crash due to different timings by a faster set of hardware. This way Sony or whomever doesn't need to recompile and test each individual game and it should theoretically all work out the box. Due to how it theoretically works it means all the hardware will clock down and adjust itself to match the PS4/Pro to run the game so there will be no gain in performance.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Enough with the emulation talk.

    I wouldn't really get your hopes up. It'll most likely run at the same performance. One of the patent filed was a device solely to test the timings and boundaries of tweaking hardware and software configurations running the same ISA, like clock speed, memory latency or whatever to get the proper timings so the game wouldn't crash due to different timings by a faster set of hardware. This way Sony or whomever doesn't need to recompile and test each individual game and it should theoretically all work out the box. Due to how it theoretically works it means all the hardware will clock down and adjust itself to match the PS4/Pro to run the game so there will be no gain in performance.
    Honestly, I'm hoping that it is like the XB1 where you put the disc in, it downloads it from the playstation store(for anything older then the PS4, for ps4, install right from the disc) and allows you to play it without needing to repurchase it.

  3. #443
    Over 9000! Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    You do realize every other system Nintendo has released since the gamecube has had BC right?
    To be fair it was only the Wii that was backwards compatible with the GameCube. No other Nintendo home console had backwards compatibility.
    There is clear reasons why the Switch can't play Wii-U or 3DS titles. Also when it comes to their handheld systems every single one since the Gameboy Color had some kind of BC.
    Wii-U sure because the Switch is just slightly faster than it. 3DS is extremely similar in hardware to the Switch so I can't see why not besides physically inserting the games into the Switch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Enough with the emulation talk.

    I wouldn't really get your hopes up. It'll most likely run at the same performance. One of the patent filed was a device solely to test the timings and boundaries of tweaking hardware and software configurations running the same ISA, like clock speed, memory latency or whatever to get the proper timings so the game wouldn't crash due to different timings by a faster set of hardware. This way Sony or whomever doesn't need to recompile and test each individual game and it should theoretically all work out the box. Due to how it theoretically works it means all the hardware will clock down and adjust itself to match the PS4/Pro to run the game so there will be no gain in performance.
    Simply reducing the clock speed of the PS5 CPU will not make it into a PS4/Pro. The Zen2 and the Jaguar architecture are too different from each other, not to forget the difference between Navi and Southern Islands. Zen2 has more than twice the IPC so you'll have to reduce the clock a lot and you'll still get moments when the games run faster or slower. Most likely Sony will probably run PS4 games on the PS5 in a Virtual Machine to get the compatibility right. If the Blu-Ray drive doesn't exist on the PS5 I'd imagine the backwards compatibility would be useless unless people can download their games using the physical media they bought. Buying a game you already own will turn off people.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    To be fair it was only the Wii that was backwards compatible with the GameCube. No other Nintendo home console had backwards compatibility.
    The Wii-U could play Wii games.

    Wii-U sure because the Switch is just slightly faster than it. 3DS is extremely similar in hardware to the Switch so I can't see why not besides physically inserting the games into the Switch.
    That would be the reason.
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  5. #445
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Simply reducing the clock speed of the PS5 CPU will not make it into a PS4/Pro. The Zen2 and the Jaguar architecture are too different from each other, not to forget the difference between Navi and Southern Islands. Zen2 has more than twice the IPC so you'll have to reduce the clock a lot and you'll still get moments when the games run faster or slower. Most likely Sony will probably run PS4 games on the PS5 in a Virtual Machine to get the compatibility right. If the Blu-Ray drive doesn't exist on the PS5 I'd imagine the backwards compatibility would be useless unless people can download their games using the physical media they bought. Buying a game you already own will turn off people.
    I'm overly simplifying things, but I actually read the entire patent. My first thoughts when I saw it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    So a bit of background for this thing (and also written in the patent). Games on PS4 are programmed in a way that's to the metal with a lot of assumptions to be better optimized. This way it can always guarantee that certain things will be executed in the proper amount of time. So for example Task A can take 40ns of execution and Task B can take 50ns of execution on the PS4 but to run it properly A must take precedent first before B. However with more powerful CPUs and especially changes in architecture, it is very possible that B finishes first before A and then it errors out and bad things start happening.

    Now the patent itself. It's not the actual method of backwards compatibility but it does give some insight to what they're trying to do. At the moment all it is is testing software and hardware timings on a specially designed device (PS4 presumably).

    "Timing testing mode" as it's referred means it's going to be changing parameters in real time like OS configuration, GPU firmware, cpu clock, cache latency, cache frequency, etc (a whole lot of stuff), to essentially see what breaks. Also the testing hardware will have extra circuits to change IPC to determine their impact. The whole point of this is to disrupt timing of process / threads by modifying basically any aspect of the device and software to record / test for errors that may occur when doing this.


    What can be inferred from this is the PS5 or whatever is going to be run as x86 (well duh, granted actually seen people float ARM around for some reason) and natively run the game in a backwards compatibility mode. This means that it won't need to be recompiled, emulated or use a translation layer the latter two causing a high overhead and the former requiring man power. Backwards compatibility mode will presumably be run in which timings would align within the tolerance of the software so that it won't break due to mismatched timings. It in theory should be a more fine grained method of backwards compatibility than the PS4 Pro to PS4 is atm, which is basically disabling the 2nd GPU cluster and down clocking the CPU / GPU.

    Would love to see boring Cerny make a talk about this cause it seems very interesting to me.
    Sure there's the possibility of not actually implementing the above especially after the patents issued but with the given information currently available it means that it won't be running a VM as you seem to think.
    Last edited by Remilia; Yesterday at 04:22 PM.

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