[Megathread] PlayStation 5

[Tech614]

Emulation is purely a form of saving content from being lost /shrug, without it most people would never see the likes of some games or software.

Or you can have nintendo purposely fighting against it so they can charge for "remasters" and "rereleases"

What are you trying to argue?

Talking about unofficial emulation is not allowed on the forums- because its a massive gray area where a lot of non legal shit happens. This isn't rocket science. So not he can't say how he played Demon's Souls, what is so hard to understand?

[Jtbrig7390]

Or you can have nintendo purposely fighting against it so they can charge for "remasters" and "rereleases"

You do realize every other system Nintendo has released since the gamecube has had BC right?

There is clear reasons why the Switch can't play Wii-U or 3DS titles. Also when it comes to their handheld systems every single one since the Gameboy Color had some kind of BC.

[Onikaroshi]

You do realize every other system Nintendo has released since the gamecube has had BC right?

There is clear reasons why the Switch can't play Wii-U or 3DS titles. Also when it comes to their handheld systems every single one since the Gameboy Color had some kind of BC.

Idc about modern nintendo, it's a pain in the ass to get old nintendo games.

- - - Updated - - -

What are you trying to argue?

Talking about unofficial emulation is not allowed on the forums- because its a massive gray area where a lot of non legal shit happens. This isn't rocket science. So not he can't say how he played Demon's Souls, what is so hard to understand?

I play on my PSX emulator all the time, I own all the games I play, I can even show myself playing them, on my emulator, on youtube and not get hit because it's completely legal.

[Jtbrig7390]

Idc about modern nintendo, it's a pain in the ass to get old nintendo games.

Its almost like company's don't want you stealing their IP's?

Nintendo isn't exclusive in this ether, No gaming company is ok with you getting unofficial copies of their content.

[Onikaroshi]

Its almost like company's don't want you stealing their IP's?

Nintendo isn't exclusive in this ether, No gaming company is ok with you getting unofficial copies of their content.

Not IP theft if I own the physical copy.

[Jtbrig7390]

Not IP theft if I own the physical copy.

Still illegal to download it, you must create the copy yourself.

Also.

I play on my PSX emulator all the time, I own all the games I play, I can even show myself playing them, on my emulator, on youtube and not get hit because it's completely legal.

1) No it isn't completely legal. (Once again this very per country on how "legal" it is) but overall no it isn't.
2) Youtube will flag your videos, It just takes someone giving half a shit.
3) To make it more "legal" you need to rip the bios and create the program yourself and I highly doubt you did.

Finally this isn't anything new and has been known for ages now.

[Onikaroshi]

Still illegal to download it, you must create the copy yourself.

Also.


1) No it isn't completely legal. (Once again this very per country on how "legal" it is) but overall no it isn't.
2) Youtube will flag your videos, It just takes someone giving half a shit.
3) To make it more "legal" you need to rip the bios and create the program yourself and I highly doubt you did.

Finally this isn't anything new and has been known for ages now.

I could link years of videos with large view counts clearly stating emulator in use, nothing gets flagged.

[Jtbrig7390]

I could link years of videos with large view counts clearly stating emulator in use, nothing gets flagged.

Once again takes youtube giving half a shit.

Just because something is on youtube that doesn't mean its legal.

[Onikaroshi]

Once again takes youtube giving half a shit.

Just because something is on youtube that doesn't mean its legal.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the legalities until there's actually a case to settle it, far as I've seen there hasn't been one to set precedence yet, only cease and desist letters from companies like nintendo.

[Remilia]

Enough with the emulation talk.

I wonder if the PS5 will play PS4 games at a PS4 Pro level.

If Sony can get AMD to somehow keep the GNM API functional that many PS4 games require, yes. The PS4's GPU is a mishmash of GCN 2 and GCN 4 architectures and features. With any luck, Navi is merely a massive superset of those features and can run the GNM API at a low enough level to provide performance enhancements or at least equivalent performance. If they can manage to keep GNM functional, Navi could well be far, far more powerful for PS4 games than the PS4 Pro is and actually provide at or close to stable 4k60 performance. Whether or not that'll be checkerboarding as is currently used or native 4k is unknown currently. One can hope, right?

I wouldn't really get your hopes up. It'll most likely run at the same performance. One of the patent filed was a device solely to test the timings and boundaries of tweaking hardware and software configurations running the same ISA, like clock speed, memory latency or whatever to get the proper timings so the game wouldn't crash due to different timings by a faster set of hardware. This way Sony or whomever doesn't need to recompile and test each individual game and it should theoretically all work out the box. Due to how it theoretically works it means all the hardware will clock down and adjust itself to match the PS4/Pro to run the game so there will be no gain in performance.

[gondrin]

Enough with the emulation talk.

I wouldn't really get your hopes up. It'll most likely run at the same performance. One of the patent filed was a device solely to test the timings and boundaries of tweaking hardware and software configurations running the same ISA, like clock speed, memory latency or whatever to get the proper timings so the game wouldn't crash due to different timings by a faster set of hardware. This way Sony or whomever doesn't need to recompile and test each individual game and it should theoretically all work out the box. Due to how it theoretically works it means all the hardware will clock down and adjust itself to match the PS4/Pro to run the game so there will be no gain in performance.

Honestly, I'm hoping that it is like the XB1 where you put the disc in, it downloads it from the playstation store(for anything older then the PS4, for ps4, install right from the disc) and allows you to play it without needing to repurchase it.

[Vash The Stampede]

You do realize every other system Nintendo has released since the gamecube has had BC right?

To be fair it was only the Wii that was backwards compatible with the GameCube. No other Nintendo home console had backwards compatibility.

There is clear reasons why the Switch can't play Wii-U or 3DS titles. Also when it comes to their handheld systems every single one since the Gameboy Color had some kind of BC.

Wii-U sure because the Switch is just slightly faster than it. 3DS is extremely similar in hardware to the Switch so I can't see why not besides physically inserting the games into the Switch.

Enough with the emulation talk.

I wouldn't really get your hopes up. It'll most likely run at the same performance. One of the patent filed was a device solely to test the timings and boundaries of tweaking hardware and software configurations running the same ISA, like clock speed, memory latency or whatever to get the proper timings so the game wouldn't crash due to different timings by a faster set of hardware. This way Sony or whomever doesn't need to recompile and test each individual game and it should theoretically all work out the box. Due to how it theoretically works it means all the hardware will clock down and adjust itself to match the PS4/Pro to run the game so there will be no gain in performance.

Simply reducing the clock speed of the PS5 CPU will not make it into a PS4/Pro. The Zen2 and the Jaguar architecture are too different from each other, not to forget the difference between Navi and Southern Islands. Zen2 has more than twice the IPC so you'll have to reduce the clock a lot and you'll still get moments when the games run faster or slower. Most likely Sony will probably run PS4 games on the PS5 in a Virtual Machine to get the compatibility right. If the Blu-Ray drive doesn't exist on the PS5 I'd imagine the backwards compatibility would be useless unless people can download their games using the physical media they bought. Buying a game you already own will turn off people.

[Jtbrig7390]

To be fair it was only the Wii that was backwards compatible with the GameCube. No other Nintendo home console had backwards compatibility.

The Wii-U could play Wii games.

Wii-U sure because the Switch is just slightly faster than it. 3DS is extremely similar in hardware to the Switch so I can't see why not besides physically inserting the games into the Switch.

That would be the reason.

[Remilia]

Simply reducing the clock speed of the PS5 CPU will not make it into a PS4/Pro. The Zen2 and the Jaguar architecture are too different from each other, not to forget the difference between Navi and Southern Islands. Zen2 has more than twice the IPC so you'll have to reduce the clock a lot and you'll still get moments when the games run faster or slower. Most likely Sony will probably run PS4 games on the PS5 in a Virtual Machine to get the compatibility right. If the Blu-Ray drive doesn't exist on the PS5 I'd imagine the backwards compatibility would be useless unless people can download their games using the physical media they bought. Buying a game you already own will turn off people.

I'm overly simplifying things, but I actually read the entire patent. My first thoughts when I saw it.

So a bit of background for this thing (and also written in the patent). Games on PS4 are programmed in a way that's to the metal with a lot of assumptions to be better optimized. This way it can always guarantee that certain things will be executed in the proper amount of time. So for example Task A can take 40ns of execution and Task B can take 50ns of execution on the PS4 but to run it properly A must take precedent first before B. However with more powerful CPUs and especially changes in architecture, it is very possible that B finishes first before A and then it errors out and bad things start happening.

Now the patent itself. It's not the actual method of backwards compatibility but it does give some insight to what they're trying to do. At the moment all it is is testing software and hardware timings on a specially designed device (PS4 presumably).

"Timing testing mode" as it's referred means it's going to be changing parameters in real time like OS configuration, GPU firmware, cpu clock, cache latency, cache frequency, etc (a whole lot of stuff), to essentially see what breaks. Also the testing hardware will have extra circuits to change IPC to determine their impact. The whole point of this is to disrupt timing of process / threads by modifying basically any aspect of the device and software to record / test for errors that may occur when doing this.


What can be inferred from this is the PS5 or whatever is going to be run as x86 (well duh, granted actually seen people float ARM around for some reason) and natively run the game in a backwards compatibility mode. This means that it won't need to be recompiled, emulated or use a translation layer the latter two causing a high overhead and the former requiring man power. Backwards compatibility mode will presumably be run in which timings would align within the tolerance of the software so that it won't break due to mismatched timings. It in theory should be a more fine grained method of backwards compatibility than the PS4 Pro to PS4 is atm, which is basically disabling the 2nd GPU cluster and down clocking the CPU / GPU.

Would love to see boring Cerny make a talk about this cause it seems very interesting to me.

Sure there's the possibility of not actually implementing the above especially after the patents issued but with the given information currently available it means that it won't be running a VM as you seem to think.

[Tech614]

Not to be too nitpicky but people do it to me all the time, it was 83.8 million PS3 sales.... which was pretty damn good considering 360 only did 84 million and was out about a year longer.

Unfortunately, Sony finally updated their PS3 numbers and they are well over 84 mil. Even though I already told you logically they had to be over 85 mil, it's even more then that lol...

[Onikaroshi]

Unfortunately, Sony finally updated their PS3 numbers and they are well over 84 mil. Even though I already told you logically they had to be over 85 mil, it's even more then that lol...

I mean, good for them? We only had numbers at the time to go off of, so now that we know it's higher that is that on that front.

Were vita sales that bad or something that they don't even want to disclose them?

[Tech614]

I mean, good for them? We only had numbers at the time to go off of, so now that we know it's higher that is that on that front.

Were vita sales that bad or something that they don't even want to disclose them?

We already knew they where higher then that because those numbers where from 2.5 years before production on it ended. Only you where being obtuse and trying to argue they literally sold nothing in those 2.5 years lmao.

On the vita, yea I wouldn't be propping up Vita sales numbers at an investor briefing either... Best case scenario it's slightly ahead of the Wii U.

[Onikaroshi]

We already knew they where higher then that because those numbers where from 2.5 years before production on it ended. Only you where being obtuse and trying to argue they literally sold nothing in those 2.5 years lmao.

Good lord you just want to start arguments don't you.

It wasn't even 83.8 million units sold in that time period, it was 80 million sold and 3.8 milllion shipped, so the sales could have been extremely low yes, because who's buying ps3s when ps4 is out.

[InTheEnd]

People were saying the same thing when the Xbox X was released, "why spent $500 on a console when you can get a more powerful pc instead?" but they were wrong. When the Xbox X released, people could not match the price/performance of the console with an equivalent PC build. Now it seems people are making the same false assumption that they can get an equivalent or better PC build for $500 that matches or betters the features of the PS5. To them I say this, "you are dreaming!"

[Tech614]

Good lord you just want to start arguments don't you.

Actually you inserted yourself in the PS3 sales discussion and you just have a habit of always being w r o n g.