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  1. #81
    Vanilla 5-mans were based around a simple premise: Everything will try to hurt you. Horribly. And if it hurts, then don't do it again ¯\ (ツ)_/¯

    Paladins let you bypass that rule with HUGE gamesaving cooldowns. Divine Intervention, Lay on Hands, Blessing of Protection, Consecration... no other class even came close to preventing as many wipes as a Paladin could. Back then, that was the difference between downing Emperor Thaurissan and getting the much coveted Hand of Justice... or ending your run at the Grim Guzzler because you had wiped too much, thanks to the Hunter in your party facepulling more than a Warrior or Druid tank could handle.

    And that was the beauty of Vanilla: Each spec was good at a specific niche. Prot was for 5mans and world farming, while Ret was for the High Warlord grind.
    “The weak are always anxious for justice and equality. The strong pay no heed to either.” ― Aristotle
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Highelf View Post
    How are Paladins in 5 mans? Are they good at tanking/healing/dpsing?

    Do they have fun class quests?

    Going Human.

    Thanks.
    All 3 specs are viable. I played Ret for all of Vanilla and did quite well. Also with the amount of Rogues that will likely be present, Seal of Command becomes pretty badass when you have People that regularly Stun since it does 2x damage against stunned or incapacitated enemies. Ret also does nicely in a few of the Higher level Dungeons due to Undead enemies in places like Scholo and Strath are susceptible to Exorcism and it always crits, Ret's Talent Conviction which increases your Melee and Holy damage by 15% on a crit is proc'd by this which is a pretty nice bonus in damage for a 1.5sec cast. We also bring a LOT of utility to others in the group from Blessings, DI and being able to Bubble to avoid damage so that the Healer does not need to worry about us.

    The Paladin quests are pretty awesome as well, gathering the pieces for Verigan's Fist was a blast and having the questline for the Charger was a fun thing to accomplish back then and depending on your servers economy for things like Arcanite Bars and Gems can actually end up much cheaper than the lvl 60 Mount/Riding cost.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    All 3 specs are viable. I played Ret for all of Vanilla and did quite well. Also with the amount of Rogues that will likely be present, Seal of Command becomes pretty badass when you have People that regularly Stun since it does 2x damage against stunned or incapacitated enemies. Ret also does nicely in a few of the Higher level Dungeons due to Undead enemies in places like Scholo and Strath are susceptible to Exorcism and it always crits, Ret's Talent Conviction which increases your Melee and Holy damage by 15% on a crit is proc'd by this which is a pretty nice bonus in damage for a 1.5sec cast. We also bring a LOT of utility to others in the group from Blessings, DI and being able to Bubble to avoid damage so that the Healer does not need to worry about us.

    The Paladin quests are pretty awesome as well, gathering the pieces for Verigan's Fist was a blast and having the questline for the Charger was a fun thing to accomplish back then and depending on your servers economy for things like Arcanite Bars and Gems can actually end up much cheaper than the lvl 60 Mount/Riding cost.
    Conviction is the flat 5% crit to melee, do you mean the Vengeance buff? Also Exorcism is instant in vanilla and I don't believe it always crits, maybe you're thinking of a later iteration of the spell.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Mackeith View Post
    Conviction is the flat 5% crit to melee, do you mean the Vengeance buff? Also Exorcism is instant in vanilla and I don't believe it always crits, maybe you're thinking of a later iteration of the spell.
    Oh right yeah Veng, which required Conviction to unlock. Oh yeah It seems I was remembering the TBC version, but I remember Vanilla Exorcism only being usable on Demon/Undead. The Crit buff came once they allowed it to be usable on any type, just to keep the flavour of it being more effective against unholy creatures.
    Last edited by Super Kami Dende; 2019-04-18 at 09:45 AM.

  5. #85
    Conviction is the extra %crit on MELEE

    Vindication is the 15% Agi Str DEBUFF on MELEE ATK

    Venegance is the bonus DMG PHY/HOLY after a CRIT

    -----

    Exorcism was usable only on demons and ud in vanilla maybe was in wotlk that could be usable on everybody but 100% crit on ud and demon

  6. #86
    Old God Low Hanging Fruit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yeah, Druids were 3 target AOE, and it was frontal cone. Warriors had 360 with T-Clap, and it was 4 targets, which is better than Druid, but nothing beats 360-all-targets with Pally and consecration for holding AOE threat on big pulls.
    Druids could do it very consistently due to resource management. Granted I will say warriors are the superior tank in classic in the "duh" response of the day, but Paladins had one thing. Consecration. That's it. To be able to do it often they had to gear almost completely away from survivability which is usually bad when you want to make "big pulls".

    I suppose "best" aoe tank of the 2 non warrior tanks was to simple of a term I used. More like it's the best at that one thing that can do it consistently due to resources combined with survivability aside from the obvious choice of warrior.

  7. #87
    I posted in other thread (https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ladin-Leveling) this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nargoron View Post
    Hi there,

    my idea was something like:
    10-20
    go for this https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/AswQAAA
    a) in order to be able tank dungeons, you need consecration (i tried it without and it doesn't work :/ even with holy shield)
    - so you get + str (there is no intellect gear suitable for you anyway),
    - spiritial focus - despite the fact, you lose some dps, its life savior
    - and finally consecration so you can aoe in dungeons with retirbution aura. In open world you dont use it that much, unless you play with friend ( i lvled with priest so i can pull 5-6 mobs and aoe them down on low levels - gnolls in wetlands are fine spot for example). Bu twohander will be used more offten, so rather keep your 2-hander up to date. Because situation where you fight just one mob are quite common.

    20-31
    then go for retri talents
    https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-c...din/AswQAAIwwQ
    on 31 you get seal of command, its quite late but thats the price of being ,,half tank"
    - go for cheaper seals - helpful for dungeons so you wouldnt be oom that fast.
    - extra parry for tankiness
    - seal of command
    Again you are still able to aoe mobs with 1-h and shield, especialy if someone healing you (and you can selfheal because of 70% pushback immunity) but killing 1 mob with seal of command and two hander will be more common situation.

    31-41
    same as previous part.
    But your retri aura will be more effitient which help alot when u r tanking dungeons. For single target you have Sanctity aura

    41-50
    improved Righteous fury is very missing in this part. But if you respec for prot before 51, you would be very weak outside the dungeons (pvp with caster, time to kill of single mob). Use blessing of salvation on everybody in your party and try to keep mobs on you during dungeons. Blessing of protection helps alot if caster/healer has too much threath.
    on lvl 50 you are on this talents: https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-c...n/AswQAAQxzc9w
    If you crit, your Consecration + retribution aura do enough damage (don't forget to keep Righteous fury on your self in dungeons)

    51
    hurrey, respec: https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-c...n/AjwQBD3PAa0A
    int over str - bigger mana pool means more consecrations and seals on big pulls. You do more holy damage then physical (that is why int over str, but you lose some damage block form str).
    Keep spiritual focus to be able to selfheal ( if you turn on concentration aura you are immune to pushback)
    You can sacrifice some armor talent for HoJ if you are on pvp server. Or put two talents to make Blessing of Protection more available, because it helps a lot in dungeons...

    For 52-60 add rest of the points in Benediction and parry or imp. seal of crusaider which help against bosses.

    Have fun
    Unfortunately noone react on that... i would like to hear your opinion and i think it fit with topic to this thread as well.

  8. #88
    Hybrids are pretty awfull in 5mans. Sure you can tank a dungeon, you could even tank strat/scholo 60 as a SHAMAN if you really wanted to (did it myself). It doesnt change the fact that a a protwarrior is lightyears ahead in everything you could do as a tank and holy priest without the endless long fight durations like in raids, have a very easy time doing much better in 5mans.

    WoW vanilla / classic is pretty heavy shifted to the HOLY TRINITY (Warrior-Priest-Mage), the hybrid tax in vanilla was pretty hard to compensate - just read up how some of the hybrid skills scale with stats and how limited your gearing choices are to understand what awaits you in classic.

    Hybrid = offheal, if you play with competitive players you are just dead weight if you try to do anything else
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Hybrids are pretty awfull in 5mans. Sure you can tank a dungeon, you could even tank strat/scholo 60 as a SHAMAN if you really wanted to (did it myself). It doesnt change the fact that a a protwarrior is lightyears ahead in everything you could do as a tank and holy priest without the endless long fight durations like in raids, have a very easy time doing much better in 5mans.

    WoW vanilla / classic is pretty heavy shifted to the HOLY TRINITY (Warrior-Priest-Mage), the hybrid tax in vanilla was pretty hard to compensate - just read up how some of the hybrid skills scale with stats and how limited your gearing choices are to understand what awaits you in classic.

    Hybrid = offheal, if you play with competitive players you are just dead weight if you try to do anything else
    I think as many people have pointed out, this question is pertaining to 5-mans, and mostly related to how you would fare in a PUG. I'll hands down agree that picking a Warrior to tank your PUG group is a much better choice in all instances, but the fact is that tanks are few and far between, and if we're looking at dungeon completion time, including the time it takes to form your group, grabbing that Feral or Prot Pala might save you more than an hour in the end, and the dungeon will get completed regardless.

  10. #90
    It isn't 100% true that Warrior are better that PPala in 5man.
    PPala can't pop out awesome Defensive CD like Warrior but deals way more DMG/Reflect DMG/AOE DMG than Prot War.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Nargoron View Post
    I posted in other thread (https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ladin-Leveling) this post:



    Unfortunately noone react on that... i would like to hear your opinion and i think it fit with topic to this thread as well.
    Your problem is that you take the wrong approach.


    You have to understand that levelling as Prot is not like now.
    RN tank dish out a tons of dmg so you can go full tank basically and still level without problem.


    The issue in Vanilla is that a tank had 0 dmg, was pure shit levelling trying to kill a mob missing spell etc etc.
    So you have to understand that there are 2 scenarios

    The first is 1-59 and the second is 60.

    1-59 is just "efficiency killing" you don't need parry, no that having 5% or 6% will be a huge difference while levelling.

    Otherwise dealing 15% on the SoR while levelling is way better because things die fast and don't kill you.

    So you focus on the DMG aspect of Protection.
    Going deeper in Retri have no sense if you want to level as Prot pulling 2-4 mobs, it has if you are levelling Retri 1h but that is another playstile.

    You will never have a huge uptime on Venegance to boost holy dmg from Consacration, if you miss a spell you don't hit so not even crit.

    Meanwhile going Prot with HS and BoS even if you miss you will still deal reflect dmg.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    Your problem is that you take the wrong approach.


    You have to understand that levelling as Prot is not like now.
    RN tank dish out a tons of dmg so you can go full tank basically and still level without problem.


    The issue in Vanilla is that a tank had 0 dmg, was pure shit levelling trying to kill a mob missing spell etc etc.
    So you have to understand that there are 2 scenarios

    The first is 1-59 and the second is 60.

    1-59 is just "efficiency killing" you don't need parry, no that having 5% or 6% will be a huge difference while levelling.

    Otherwise dealing 15% on the SoR while levelling is way better because things die fast and don't kill you.

    So you focus on the DMG aspect of Protection.
    Going deeper in Retri have no sense if you want to level as Prot pulling 2-4 mobs, it has if you are levelling Retri 1h but that is another playstile.

    You will never have a huge uptime on Venegance to boost holy dmg from Consacration, if you miss a spell you don't hit so not even crit.

    Meanwhile going Prot with HS and BoS even if you miss you will still deal reflect dmg.
    But this damage output of the prot. tree is on the end...
    Your damage is consecration + Retri aura (and imp. retri aura is in retri tree not protect). Only after level 51 when you have holy shield you get this ,,damage" aspec of prot. (or level 40 if you go without consecration, but then u have really hard time tanking dungeons during leveling, which is what i want to do).
    And that is the reason why i go prot at level 51.

    Can you put some example of your leveling? or what build you prefer? and when to respec? If you respec?

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    IDD but the difference between vanilla and tbc was basically this, ASSUMING LV 60 FOR BOTH

    Vanilla vs TBC (clipped)


    Basically both tree were 90% similar and thus Pala Prot pre 2.0.1 and 2.0.1 didn't notice a huge difference at lv 60, you noticed it during levelling.

    But in 2.0.1 PProt got : Taunt "AoE" | Ardent Defender | RFury flat dmg redux talent


    Those were HUGE buffs and let PProt begin viable for MT Tanking in TBC Raids, 5man doesnt count since they were viable even before so..
    Sure, but I'm talking about leveling (1-60), not Level 60 end game.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Nargoron View Post
    But this damage output of the prot. tree is on the end...
    Your damage is consecration + Retri aura (and imp. retri aura is in retri tree not protect). Only after level 51 when you have holy shield you get this ,,damage" aspec of prot. (or level 40 if you go without consecration, but then u have really hard time tanking dungeons during leveling, which is what i want to do).
    And that is the reason why i go prot at level 51.

    Can you put some example of your leveling? or what build you prefer? and when to respec? If you respec?
    That is why I made a post above where I explained 1 plausible path to follow.


    You need level 30 to get 0/21/0 and unlock Blessing of Sanctuary ( DMG Redux per Hit + Reflect Holy DMG on Blocks )

    This works because you don't have Defense Cap and thus you will be susceptible to Crit Attack.

    Also at 26 you gain Retribution Aura so your reflect dmg will be higher.
    Plus at 30 you get Seal of Light and thus you can sustain yourself.

    ------


    But what about 1-30? You will not be able to do anything rushing Prot Tree, so you will start with a

    11/0/10 build

    Rush Consacration + Imp SoRSS

    Then you go in Retri for the Benediction/Imp Judg and Imp SoCrus
    To boost your sustain dmg etc etc


    Then at this point you are LV 30 and can respect 0/21/0 if you want to start asap Prot Leveling.

    OR you can just push it to 31, respec to 11/0/11

    Trading ImpSoRSS for Spiritual Focus and get Seal of Command

    And level like this 1h+Shield.
    You will be able to level and tank, especially to hold aggro due to Consacration.
    You will be more oriented in sustained dmg and burst through SoC and the ImpJudgment and SoCrusase Debuff
    BUT less tanky.


    Then at 41 you can finally respec to 11/21/0 and gain both Consacration and BoSanctuary and become an AOE farming machine and an AOE tank

  15. #95
    I am Murloc! RoKPaNda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    No it isnt stop spread bullshit as usual.

    If you never played Vanilla or didn't try out any hybrid spec have the decency to shut the fuck up.
    Why are you so angry because I'm telling you the truth about Vanilla paladins? You'll see when classic releases. Paladins won't be tanking anything unless they vastly outgear it and it's immune to taunt. If anyone didn't play Vanilla here I'm going to guess it's you.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there?| FOR THE HORDE

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Why are you so angry because I'm telling you the truth about Vanilla paladins? You'll see when classic releases. Paladins won't be tanking anything unless they vastly outgear it and it's immune to taunt. If anyone didn't play Vanilla here I'm going to guess it's you.
    Because having already played Vanilla both back at the original release and even after {even if there are some fishy stuff}, I have already saw and tested the limit of Prot Paladin.

    So anything on the line " durr Pala Prot vanilla me no saw ever so me think no working" is just a pile of bullshit from somebody that is trolling or never played during vanilla.



    Also we already discussed here the Pro and Cons of Prot Pala and what to expect if you want to play that spec, beside this is just people wasting time trying to nagging.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yeah, Druids were 3 target AOE, and it was frontal cone. Warriors had 360 with T-Clap, and it was 4 targets, which is better than Druid, but nothing beats 360-all-targets with Pally and consecration for holding AOE threat on big pulls.
    Thunder Clap was Battle Stance only, so it didn't get the threat modifier from Defencive Stance. It was still a useful move, particularly on the pull after a charge, but it wasn't something Warriors would ever really spam on cooldown. If you had a boss that required you keep it up, it would usually be done by one of the DPS Warriors with the Improved Talent.

    The Warriors biggest AoE threat generator was Battle Shout - Which was outright bonkers when in a group with Hunters and all their pets. We used to kill Nefarian by having our MT just spaming Battle Shout throughout phase 1. It used to bring pretty much all of the Dragonkin to him. Refreshing it on all 9 targets was something like 800 threat per GCD. Even in a more typical 5 man group, assuming everyone is in range for it, you're still going to generate about 450 threat per use. In a 360 degree radius, with unlimited range.

    Demoralising Shout was also a huge threat generator too, and like Consecration, was 360 degrees and hit unlimited targets.

    A max rank Consecration was 48 damage per second, which is about 91 threat per second assuming you've taken Imp.Righteous Fury, which is a lot certainly but it doesn't hold a candle to Battle Shout. It compared more favourably to Demoralising Shout, but was a huge drain on your mana, where Demoralising Shout could be spammed pretty much indefinately.

    The problem with Paladin AoE was that you only got the threat modifer on Holy Damage. Which was nice in a vacuum, but when you consider buffs like Thorns, Fire Shield and various other reflective sources, their total threat output wasn't quite as high as you might think. The Warriors and Druids got those damage sources multiplied by their innate threat modifers too, where Paladins didn't. It helped them close the gap terms of total AoE threat.

  18. #98
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    Lol man your inexperience and blatantly obvious attitude showing that you aren’t a real vanilla player is showing.

    Obviously, yes it’s luck based welcome to classic.

    The fact is if you are CONSISTENTLY clearing MC EVERY reset, you will have multiple thunderfury and hand of rag by the time Nax drops, it’s sheer statistics. Its exactly how my guild had 2 rogues and 1 warrior with complete warglaive sets by the time sunwell dropped, we cleared it weekly, non stop, on farm so we seen multiple legendaries drop.

    Also you do realize that it’s not retail, personal loot doesn’t exist so you aren’t fucked waiting on personal RNG, master looter is a thing and officers dictate who gets what legendary right? Considering the fact that’s pre-decided(just like every other legendary being handed out in any guild worth being in). If your goal is to get thunderfury or hand of rag and your guild AGREES with that decision, you will in fact have one by Naxx.

    Also I’ll reiterate this for you, ANYONE using a legendary that is competent is competitive. If you think a Ret with hand of rag and gear to match it will be trash you are severely wrong.
    Human Ret Paladin main since '04

    Glory To The Alliance!

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Daikoku View Post
    Just sayin


    [ye ye patch 2.01 but tbc was on 2.0.3 with the prot viability buffs]

    By this metric, does this make hunter viable raid tank too ?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    By this metric, does this make hunter viable raid tank too ?
    Only if you can find other videos where it can tank 5 man otherwise is just like Rogue full dodge tanking Illidan in TBC

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